leather, textile, mesh -- a sobering report

Given the excellent recent discussions in this forum about what riding gear -- clothing, helmets, etc -- are available in China, one question that keeps arising is that of quality. Can "fakes" be as good as the genuine product? Is a major western brand name a guarantee of quality, given that so many of their products are made here in China? Quality is on the tip of our tongues, but what actually is quality?

I was turning these questions over in my head as I read an astonishing bit of first-hand reporting by a member of another forum that I read, North Bay Sport Riders, based in my home town of Santa Rosa, California. Isaac went down hard on his brand new Ducati Multistrada in the Sierra Nevada near Donner Lake. Though loaded up on painkillers, he wrote of his experience -- and of the quality he did (or didn't) find in his riding gear. I think the following link is public; have a look for yourself!

Isaac's NBSR gear review

For those of us living in China, having a discussion about the quality of riding gear is all the more important, given the near universal cluelessness among riders here about safety equipment; there's perhaps a tendency for us committed riders to "do as the Romans do" and cut corners on quality and safety. On the other hand, given the mind-boggling levels of danger and stupidity in which we ride every day, this question of "what gear" simply cannot be overstated.

Ride, but ride safely!

Wooo! Sobering report that. Still tells me what I have always believed, good heavy leather is still the best. I will stick to mine then. I was wavering in my conviction and in fact was going to get a textile jacket and trousers this week for the spring/summer rides coming up! Now I won't. I shall save it towards a perforated leather suit and silk undies for summer!

Or perhaps, just perhaps, get the full cover, light kevlar undies for under the coolness of mesh gear: Draggin GREY KEVLAR LEGGINGS and Draggin grey kevlar shirt as they should save the body against road rash. Hmmmm. Decisions. The odds on sliding on just the armoured parts of textile designs without full kevlar linings are not good in such a crash when you roll and slide a good few meters. Might be better in the bush when you are just bouncing off trees and scrub! Helmet is far and away the most important item, I notice he lost a tooth. My full face helmet seems very close to the mouth as well, I will try on some different brands and see if they differ there.

Somewhere a couple of years ago I saw a 'Choice magazine' type report on textile and leather gear in crashes, done for EEC I think that mentioned brands and who did best, came out on the side of leather. Many of the expensive, well known 'quality' brands came up very short in design; problems with stitching, seams and kevlar coverage. Will try and find it again. I think the best performer was 4mm leather, then thinner, perforated leather race suits with built in armour, then tight-weave kevlar lined jeans etc with padding (best were Hoods). Apparantly kevlar comes in different weights too and some makers use the lighter weave which isn't good enough. Draggin' finally admitted to me that the 'undies' mentioned above are the light weight kevlar but that it is doubled in scrape/impact areas so probably the best compromise under airy but armoured summer mesh. I don't think we can have too many threads and discussions about this stuff.

Thanks for the timely reminder Jeff. Did you get out and about with BD amd MK this weekend last?

Take a look at this 70MPH slide wearing Motoport Mesh before drawing conclusions on textiles.

I'm probably going to get a Motoport suit after I win the lottery :icon10:

Cheers!
ChinaV

Wow, that's quite some disparity between those two. Thank you for both.

It makes me think twice about my 350 RMB trousers i bought on taobao, which in turn reminds me that i've been riding the sidecar to work in shorts and tshirt everyday for the last month. It's 35° and 8 million % humidity out here and the meer act of drinking cause to perspire liquid at a faster rate than i can take it in. I tell myself tomorrow i'll wear the body armor, but in the morning i get to the garage and a small lake is already forming at my feet so i just leave it.

I'm not sure what conclusion i'm drawing from this. Is it ok to ride unprotected for two months of the year? Apparently not. I don't think it'll never happen to me either, it probably will one day. But tomorrow morning i have to admit i'm probably going to be doing the same thing, although i never go without a helmet. I ain't THAT dumb.

My two cents in the great debate ...

Helmets are a must, definitely, absolutely, always ... comfortable fit, high visibility and not restrictive of hearing. I always shudder when I see parents carrying their children on scooters with no helmets.

Foot and ankle protection is also important, I think, because they frequently come into contact with the ground.

Protective clothing is interesting, however. I'm a strong advocate of leather, simply because it does its job well - protecting that vital skin. But if I have to arrive at my destination drenched in sweat (and not too pleasant smelling), it defeats the purpose of getting enjoyment out of my bike. These past days it has been an oven in Beijing - wrapping myself in leather just ain't going to happen. I just make sure my t-shirt is a bright color.

Textiles are possibly ok, but I'm an old dog that doesn't easily learn new tricks. If I take a spill (knock on wood - 40 years of riding and not one of my bikes has even fallen off the side stand), I couldn't care less what my clothes look like AFTER any spill ... I just want my Ivory Soap soft skin to retain its natural lustrous beauty.

I saw somewhere online that you can now buy an Air Bag suit. Apparently, you attach it to the bike via a cord somehow and if you leave the bike (presumably from a fall) the suit inflates. Now, I am quite sure this suit would be very UNcomfortable to begin with ... and I am damn sure that at some point when I stop for gas, I would forget to deactivate the suit and I'd transform into the Michelin Man before the gas jockey's eyes.

Motorcycling is inherently dangerous - it is one of the enjoyments this otherwise ultra-conservative banker/professor/suit gets out of life. Shorts & t-shirt for me on these baking days.

OK, maybe that was three cents. :lol8:

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

My two cents in the great debate ...

Helmets are a must, definitely, absolutely, always ... comfortable fit, high visibility and not restrictive of hearing. I always shudder when I see parents carrying their children on scooters with no helmets.

Foot and ankle protection is also important, I think, because they frequently come into contact with the ground.

Protective clothing is interesting, however. I'm a strong advocate of leather, simply because it does its job well - protecting that vital skin. But if I have to arrive at my destination drenched in sweat (and not too pleasant smelling), it defeats the purpose of getting enjoyment out of my bike. These past days it has been an oven in Beijing - wrapping myself in leather just ain't going to happen. I just make sure my t-shirt is a bright color.

Textiles are possibly ok, but I'm an old dog that doesn't easily learn new tricks. If I take a spill (knock on wood - 40 years of riding and not one of my bikes has even fallen off the side stand), I couldn't care less what my clothes look like AFTER any spill ... I just want my Ivory Soap soft skin to retain its natural lustrous beauty.

I saw somewhere online that you can now buy an Air Bag suit. Apparently, you attach it to the bike via a cord somehow and if you leave the bike (presumably from a fall) the suit inflates. Now, I am quite sure this suit would be very UNcomfortable to begin with ... and I am damn sure that at some point when I stop for gas, I would forget to deactivate the suit and I'd transform into the Michelin Man before the gas jockey's eyes.

Motorcycling is inherently dangerous - it is one of the enjoyments this otherwise ultra-conservative banker/professor/suit gets out of life. Shorts & t-shirt for me on these baking days.

OK, maybe that was three cents. :lol8:

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40 years riding and you haven't come off once you must be extremely lucky.

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

40 years riding and you haven't come off once you must be extremely lucky.

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Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said anything - I may have jinxed myself.

Here's a few links to make the obvious more obvious and the confusion, less confused... on motorcycle clothing.

Understanding motorcycle clothing standards
Helpful information about modern motorcycle protective gear
The complete skin care range for motorcyclists
Save your hide - what to look for in protective gear

OK, I get it: best is full leather, next is heavy kevlar. But you all have to admit that it can be awfully hot and humid her in China and wearing full jacket/trousers set could heat-stroke you.
I am currently looking around for gear and I was wondering what you guys think of these mesh armored jackets.
Something like: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9753787412& or
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9747059974&

They might offer good protection for the upper body and together with some knee protectors http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10802002104&
and good boots would I be fine?

I guess the only part which is difficult to protect is hip and upper thigh.

Of course, gloves and Helmet are a must!

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Originally Posted by fahni

OK, I get it: best is full leather, next is heavy kevlar. But you all have to admit that it can be awfully hot and humid her in China and wearing full jacket/trousers set could heat-stroke you.
I am currently looking around for gear and I was wondering what you guys think of these mesh armored jackets.
Something like: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9753787412& or
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9747059974&

They might offer good protection for the upper body and together with some knee protectors http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10802002104&
and good boots would I be fine?

I guess the only part which is difficult to protect is hip and upper thigh.

Of course, gloves and Helmet are a must!

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Got to agree, it gets hard really hard to ATGATT when this weather is so sticky, hot and humid and not in the best possible way I might add. I have a mesh jacket and mesh trousers, that are ok, but they are really quite heavy and feel somewhat bulkier than my textile gear. I was surprised at just how heavy the jacket feels compared to my other jackets. The mesh stuff works ok, but if its hot then one still gets hot - mesh or not. With this weather it doesn't matter if I use my textile gear or the mesh stuff, I still get hot when stationary and sweat faster than arctic ice shelf.

I remember reading somewhere about a type of undergarment for motorcyclists for hot riding conditions. The garments are designed has lots of small cells which can be filled with water and then frozen - basically fill it through a small opening into a bladder which separates into many internalised small cells, after filling one simply places into a freezer where it freezes overnight. Because the fabric sections have all these hundreds of cells the garment can flex and from what I read can be worn against the skin to provide a cool refreshing temperature that lasts all day even high temperature conditions, and due to design and materials used doesn't leave any water on the skin surface so one doesn't get wet. I seemed to recall reading a handful of reviews at the time, that seemed on the whole to support the product. Though I don't recall where I read up on the products.
Seriously there are days just recently I'd wish someone came out with some kind of small mobile pack incorporating a small heat exchanger that could be plugged into a motorcycle riding suit in a reverse of the heat vests that one can buy.

I saw recently a racing leather made for Sete Gibernau by Spidi, with a liquid cooling system inside, to keep him fresh for a Qatar race. Nice stuff, but not available for the mass....

Interesting and useful information in the thread, thanks.
I'm in the market for a full set of protective clothing for long distance touring. I see links to taobao which I believe is a web based market like ebay?
(1) Are there places in Shanghai or Beijing where I can go to look at and try stuff on for correct fit and to check on the quality?
(2) If so, how do the prices in China compare to the USA for good quality items?

I found a jacket that is kindof open mesh so it lets the air through for cheap from a shop near the bike market here i Shanghai and similar pants. Then bought real pads to go in them. On top of that good helmets and real shoes. We had a couple (yes, a couple) of accidents here in the rain last week. And they held up fine. You wouldnt want to take a big slide on them but theyre good to hold in the real pads. Also picked up some of that special underwear in holland which helps cool you down. I really dont feel a huge difference between wearing gear and not. If it's hot and I have no gear I'm still sweating my tits off anyway. So it's ATTATT for me.

robtho, it's not cheaper here anyway thats for certain. If it's cheap it's shit. I bought the cheapest (good) riding shoes they had (on sale) for 1500 rmb and elbow and shoulder pads for 800. Jacket and pants both 600 (fake) but they did the job. If you buy from taobao be sure to buy from a good shop. There is one on pubei lu shanghai. You can find the link to their taobao account here in one of the threads about safety gear.

I found a jacket that is kindof open mesh so it lets the air through for cheap from a shop near the bike market here i Shanghai and similar pants. Then bought real pads to go in them. On top of that good helmets and real shoes. We had a couple (yes, a couple) of accidents here in the rain last week. And they held up fine. You wouldnt want to take a big slide on them but theyre good to hold in the real pads which kick ass. If I wasn't wearing that stuff I'd be in hospital. Also picked up some of that special underwear in holland which helps cool you down. I really dont feel a huge difference between wearing gear and not. If it's hot and I have no gear I'm still sweating my tits off anyway. So it's ATGATT for me, unless I'm just going around the corner (isn't it something like 70% of accidents happen near you home, keeping in mind that 68 % of statistics are made up on the spot).

robtho, it's not cheaper here anyway thats for certain. If it's cheap it's shit. I bought the cheapest (good) riding shoes they had (on sale) for 1500 rmb and elbow and shoulder pads for 800. Jacket and pants both 600 (fake) but they did the job. If you buy from taobao be sure to buy from a good shop. There is one on pubei lu shanghai. You can find the link to their taobao account here in one of the threads about safety gear.

Thanks corporal_clegg, I've had a look at taobao, we have a similar thing here in Japan, http://global.rakuten.com/en/ where I've found some good looking stuff at pretty reasonable prices so will probably end up buying through them for convenience.
Take care on those wet roads, we don't want to see you hurting yourself just to field test gear for the forum.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. ~Aaron Levenstein

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Originally Posted by robtho

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. ~Aaron Levenstein

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Oh I like that quote a LOT!

about the taobao gear, I have bought a fake textile fox jacket with plastic pads for about 350rmb, and I have to say it wasn't one of the cheapest, It looked quite well, better than I would expect, I was wondering how they can make it for such a low price. I have it now for about a month or two, maybe 5 one day trips and it has just fallen apart without any reason. its not even stiches, just the fabric is going into pieces in couple of places. the same with fake alpinestars gloves. I saw some good looking leather alpinestars jackets, well on taobao just showing the example photo, but the prices were at two different sellers 280rmb and 750rmb. Anyway is much to cheap to do something good but I wonder where does the price difference come from

and btw the report doesnt open anymore

Filipu did you buy those gloves?

Ok, so I can assume that cheap stuff on taobao is fake. Got it. But what about HJC helmets? Are the ones for 400rmb also fake? They are more expensive in other places. It's one of the things that I'd prefer to have branded one ;)

yes, they are crap, just thinking about something new. very uncomfortable, and the rubber part will fall apart soon. I tried rev'it gloves to compare. amazing. Fahni bought dragon riders (some chinese brand) gloves and he says they are comfortable and the price is about 250, I think I'll buy them. They have a shop somewhere east on line 1.

Deos anyone know the SCOYCO clothing brand? It's chinese. http://www.scoyco.com/ Dragon Riders looks not bad, better than the fakes, I'm planning to try these tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by filipu

Deos anyone know the SCOYCO clothing brand? It's chinese. http://www.scoyco.com/ Dragon Riders looks not bad, better than the fakes, I'm planning to try these tomorrow.

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I have a Soyco jacket which I've owned about 2 years maybe longer. I used to use it all the time when riding. It's a red & black textile combo, with external and internal pockets, has a removable internal liner, which can feel a little bulky when putting it on however once worn feels like most other textile motorcycle jackets I have in my wardrobe.

Some of the fabric sections that commonly come into contact with some of the Velcro patches have frayed somewhat, especially near the base of the main zip, which tends to fold over onto itself when sitting on motorcycle seats. In rain, if it was just a short sprinkling of showers the exterior wouldn't get too wet, but any heavy rainfall would result in fairly substantial water holding internally, but would still keep me feeling warm if the internal lining was worn too. Any clothing underneath though would become wet.

I don't use it so much now simply as I have added enormously to my collection since then, and have lots of choices (perhaps too many). Can't remember what the jacket cost, but I got it from a shop at the Hangzhou motorcycle market. Worth more the money I paid which was around cny300 as I seem to recall, but can't be 100% certain of at the moment. Would I buy another one... yes.

As an aside I've just taken delivery of a new Nolan N43 modular helmet... very nice... looking forward to trying that out this October holidays.

Looking at a HJC IS-Multi and a GoPro camera to add to my vast collection of motorcycle goodies... can never have enough toys and trinkets ;)

Hey, thanks for reply. So would you reccomend it? Its really cheap, 600rmb. Is it waterproof?

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Originally Posted by filipu

Hey, thanks for reply. So would you reccomend it? Its really cheap, 600rmb. Is it waterproof?

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I've edited my reply... but in short yes... worth the money I feel and I'd buy again, without any hesitancy. Better some protective gear, rather than none...

Cool, thanks, hope to find my non chinese size

I would like to point out this brand moto-boy. They had a stand at EICMA 2011 in BJ as well, they seem to offer some quite high quality products. I almost bought a jacket + matching pants for about 2200 RMB, but I have this size problem being around 200 CM long. The length of the pants was a bit on the short side for me. They had another jacket/pants combination I really like, but the largest size was L. However I think they did mention something about it would be possible to make me a larger size for an additional amount.

Maybe I should have my gf inquire if they can do a custom fit of a certain type or even exactly the way I wish!

I saw that moto-boy on taobao. They had some sand color, nice looking set. I think the only dealer in BJ is near 5th ring road. I'll go there today. Here's the map:

Attachment 5569

Attachment 5570

I have the same size problem.

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Originally Posted by filipu

I saw that moto-boy on taobao. They had some sand color, nice looking set. I think the only dealer in BJ is near 5th ring road. I'll go there today.

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I have been to that shop, but they only have that high-end model (sand/grey colour) of moto-boy. The other model displayed at EICMA was blue/grey.

Here is the sand/grey/black color one!

That's the one I saw. They use cordura:
http://item.tmall.com/item.htm?id=12...73151423&prc=1

Not sure where to post this crazy video, so thought I'd bump this thread on safety equipment. This video is pretty cool. Not sure this would work for motorcycling speeds and impacts, though.



cheers