California Scooter Company RX-3 Cyclone Test and Info

Hola Alles, wanted to share the ADVMoto links to the new California Scooter Company (CSC) RX-3 Cyclone.

For those who haven't heard of it, this is a Zongshen produced, fuel injected 250 which targets the budget adventure touring market in the US and (possibly soon) Canada. Despite many North Americans having a rocky experience with C-Motos in the past, this new model has gotten a good amount of support from the ADV community.

CSC is really putting themselves out there on the RX-3 so I hope both the customers and makers do our fair best to support this model development for generations to come. For Chinese bikes to be taken "seriously" in North America, getting over the "disposable" status stigma will only happen over considerable amounts of time. Until then, we feel CSC is off to a good start and begs a fair question: Where are bikes like this from other manufacturers? CSC is paying attention to peoples comments and will likely find this thread.

We've spent some time working with them over the past months and our Senior Editor, Paul Smith, just got back from a test ride with some thoughtful comments on the RX-3. Check out the article and let us know what you think.

Will the RX-3 be the mold-breaking bike?

ADVMoto Quick Spin: 2015 CSC Cyclone RX-3 Test Ride

http://www.adventuremotorcycle.com/i.../FullImage.jpg


ADVMoto Press Release and Specs: CSC Announces the RX-3 Cyclone

http://www.adventuremotorcycle.com/i.../FullImage.jpg

Will keep posting here as events unfold.

Cheers,
CC
ADVMoto Magazine

Or more aptly...

when the PRC company(-ies)/business realise that long term strategies that combine an appreciation and understanding of external customers/consumers and not just locals would serve to better appreciate a potential customers wants and needs;

PRC companies/businesses tell their potential customers what they want rather than listening to customers;

PRC companies/businesses fail to understand that any mistake that damages ones reputation becomes almost insurmountable in developed markets;

PRC companies/businesses focus on making short term gains (e.g. money) rather than developing longer term strategies and end up sacrificing professional attributes in the process;

PRC companies/businesses often have short sighted strategy focused on money as opposed to building quality that can help sustain the company or business in the longer term;

PRC companies/businesses fail to appreciate the aesthetic elements of style, function and product design which might aid in product differentiation within the market place, often failing to utilise simplistic yet elegant design elements

YMMV

Carl--this bike has been getting alot of posts on the thread on chinariders.net, including a link to your fine magazine's writeup. If you want to see how well this bike will do, look no further than the Zongshen Gy200-2 guru 'Spudrider' who has 67k miles/100k + kms on his enduro (the Zongshen that uses a near-identical engine to the Yamaha TW200, not the more common Honda CG clone engines that most of us have). He is on the waiting list for the first container of bikes to arrive to the US. He, combined with a few others, will dissect their bikes and find any shortcomings, and improve on them. I think this will be a successful bike for Zongshen! Not sure how/if Chinese business practices will change, but at least it should boost Zongshen's standings. Others will have to step it up...

BDoc, all of those are valid points, but it fundamentally means you can't place that level of expectation on the manufacturer and the survival of the product depends on the dealer/aftermarket support.

It would of course be better if the manufacturers took a couple dollars from their huge wallets and put it into proper design and marketing of their products; but really they mostly only want to produce a) what they THINK the buyer wants, or b) whatever the buyer specs them to build. It's inherently short-sighted. And really, when you're the #1 exporter of motorcycles around the world, where's the incentive to compete with the dozens upon dozens of nearly identically spec'd badges out there? Can you imagine 50+ large motorcycle companies, just from China, all making 100% unique bikes in massive quantities? We don't even see that with the modern auto industry as a whole, much less from one country. As a consumer, I wonder if we could even process or evaluate that much variety and still lead something which looks like a life.

Relying on the dealers/aftermarket to do this keeps is deceptively challenging because they incur 100% of the marketing and support cost. This is one reason why many of the past start-ups have basically floundered from underestimating (or sometimes totally ignoring) the massive responsibility of PROPERLY branding any product AND supporting/developing it over decades.

Since these are not easily replaceable (or shippable) items, it means they need considerable support systems, supplies and processes. We still haven't gotten to the branding and outreach yet. Now you gotta have a killer website, sharp logo, graphic art support, video producers, copywriters and one different person to do each of these. Outside, you're trying to build credibility through media (new and old) , but are still selling to a tiny market which you believe has greater potential. Then this has to be done for several years before you'll make back your original investment, and this isn't even, paying yourself much, if anything.

Whatever happens with the RX-3, happens. Have no doubt though that what CSC, and any other importer faces in trying to get an inexpensive bike off the ground lacking real factory support is adventure in it's own right.

If you guys think riding in China is scary, try selling Chinese bikes in America! :mwink:

CC

SIMON! Whazzup yo?

I don't really see this as a ZongShen story, but really more about CSC. My last post touches on this indirectly, but fundamentally the real winning or losing here goes on at the importer. ZongShen will sell many times more of this model to other countries. Plus, if it's successful in NA (almost entirely due to CSC's work), they will likely just use that fact to promote sales in other countries who have absolutely massive demands for a relatively big 250.

But let's suppose ZongShen is actually investing in the branding and reputation of their bike and supporting the importer. Maybe sharing some advertising cost or providing collateral. The fact that there's not one Zongshen logo on the CSC front page would mean one of the parties isn't doing the fundamentals right. Let's suppose ZongShen is NOT proving any branding support, then why not just go ahead to pay a little more and have your own badge? I'm sure there are extra costs involved (milling engine covers, decals, etc.) but you'd avoid having to sell a brand most of your new customers won't recognize.

Either way, these are just speculative questions. It will be fun to watch the story unfold!

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by culcune

Carl--this bike has been getting alot of posts on the thread on chinariders.net, including a link to your fine magazine's writeup. If you want to see how well this bike will do, look no further than the Zongshen Gy200-2 guru 'Spudrider' who has 67k miles/100k + kms on his enduro (the Zongshen that uses a near-identical engine to the Yamaha TW200, not the more common Honda CG clone engines that most of us have). He is on the waiting list for the first container of bikes to arrive to the US. He, combined with a few others, will dissect their bikes and find any shortcomings, and improve on them. I think this will be a successful bike for Zongshen! Not sure how/if Chinese business practices will change, but at least it should boost Zongshen's standings. Others will have to step it up...

---

Most of us knew about this bike (and its origins) thanks to the guy who bought an early one and rode it from China to Turkey and posted his thread here on MCM. Spudrider or someone else, linked the thread to chinariders months ago. Also linked to the CSC thread on advrider! It has Zongshen all over it! Joe from CSC is active on both the chinariders thread and the advrider thread.

This is the 'OG' thread http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...hen-RX3-report

Here is the chinariders thread http://chinariders.net/showthread.php?t=13440

and the advrider thread http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1007879

I have an open mind with the RX3, but I'd need consistent reports of it being good, and not for a few rides but actually a bunch of guys riding it up to 10,000 kms or more. My Chinabike is is far from terrible, but it will take a heck of a lot to get the quality of parts and avialability, assembly and 2nd hand resale at anything like Japanese levels. My normal suggestion to people who ask is 'buy a 2nd hand Honda instead' and honestly I feel I'm giving the right advice.

Hey ZMC, I think you've basically summed up the prevailing attitude towards CMotos in much of the western world. Your comments also go to illustrate how much work there is to be done and why it's an almost unfair burden to place on the backs of small businesses.

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

I have an open mind with the RX3, but I'd need consistent reports of it being good, and not for a few rides but actually a bunch of guys riding it up to 10,000 kms or more. My Chinabike is is far from terrible, but it will take a heck of a lot to get the quality of parts and avialability, assembly and 2nd hand resale at anything like Japanese levels. My normal suggestion to people who ask is 'buy a 2nd hand Honda instead' and honestly I feel I'm giving the right advice.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Hey ZMC, I think you've basically summed up the prevailing attitude towards CMotos in much of the western world. Your comments also go to illustrate how much work there is to be done and why it's an almost unfair burden to place on the backs of small businesses.

CC

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True, but some opinions are formed from bigotry, where people just don't like the whole idea of Chinese motorcycles and say 'no' regardless. However my eyes are open and I've formed this opinion from personal experience. I think there is a difference, a similar conclusion has been reached from different avenues. There are also some western commenters that say something like 'in the 1960s and early 1970s Japanese bikes were looked down on and called 'Jap-crap' by many people, there was little innovation and they were essentially copying Italian, British and American designs, now Chinese manufacturers are going through the same stage - so cut them a break'.

But really Japan isn't China and 99% of each population will testify to that with every ounce of their being. Sadly design and innovation outside of electronic engineering, modern architecture and fashion in China is pretty seldom, due to the education system, in most part IMHO. I can see nothing much more than a slow catch-up then China being a big manufacture hub for big western brands like Thailand or India. The government is hoping for 'a Honda of China', surely meaning a world leading R&D marque for motorcycle automotive design and excellence, honestly, I just can't see it, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

I have an open mind with the RX3, but I'd need consistent reports of it being good, and not for a few rides but actually a bunch of guys riding it up to 10,000 kms or more. My Chinabike is is far from terrible, but it will take a heck of a lot to get the quality of parts and avialability, assembly and 2nd hand resale at anything like Japanese levels. My normal suggestion to people who ask is 'buy a 2nd hand Honda instead' and honestly I feel I'm giving the right advice.

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^ Ditto... and I write this from the perspective of having owned and ridden my fair share of PRC motos over my 13 years here, and like ZMC888 dealing with moto shops, dealers and manufacturers with all the BS and just plain fabrication and straight out lying/lies that go with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZMC888

True, but some opinions are formed from bigotry, where people just don't like the whole idea of Chinese motorcycles and say 'no' regardless. However my eyes are open and I've formed this opinion from personal experience. I think there is a difference, a similar conclusion has been reached from different avenues. There are also some western commenters that say something like 'in the 1960s and early 1970s Japanese bikes were looked down on and called 'Jap-crap' by many people, there was little innovation and they were essentially copying Italian, British and American designs, now Chinese manufacturers are going through the same stage - so cut them a break'.

But really Japan isn't China and 99% of each population will testify to that with every ounce of their being. Sadly design and innovation outside of electronic engineering, modern architecture and fashion in China is pretty seldom, due to the education system, in most part IMHO. I can see nothing much more than a slow catch-up then China being a big manufacture hub for big western brands like Thailand or India. The government is hoping for 'a Honda of China', surely meaning a world leading R&D marque for motorcycle automotive design and excellence, honestly, I just can't see it, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

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^Touché.
I think several key words and concepts that separate Japan from PRC, are motivations like honour, integrity and honesty... most of which are sorely lacking in PRC IMO.

Hi CC
Great site and happy to be a member , both Bikerdoc & ZMC888 IMO consided to be very aware of
what is happening in China with Moto and between them have had there fair share off chinese bikes in the pass
but I read the Doc has a new BMW and 888 if his situation allowed him and I hope it does change soon
would most likely not buy a chinese made bike again? . This is a clear message IMO to all if these guy don't have
faith in Chinese made Moto so why should others.
From my point of view sadly only 4 years in China with only 3 Chinese bikes , but have clocked up over
50,000 km between them with some long rides , for me it's time to move up all my existing bikes
will go and my next bike will be a Japanese made imported bike from Thailand , for me Chinese bike are just
too problematic for my taste .

My Real issue, Carl, is CSC not realizing that they have what they have, a REAL challenge to Jap bikes. The Japs been screwed by NHTSA, EPA, etc, etc on recalls EPS BS, constantly and for MILLIONS. You think, when this bike takes off, and clueless (I'll bet) CSC gets slammed with a NHTSA recall, some emission issue, and needs a 5 mil bond for each bike sold, and has to ship bikes to the repair station (owners CANNOT REPAIR, as not "certified" by Gov't.) SOme Japanese motorcycle rep/lobbyiest doesn't RAISE HOLY HELL, and call in the dogs! Really?
CSC needs to monitor every issue and ONLY that for the first couple yrs, minimum, then MAYBE, look at expanding sources of funding.

I don't really see this as a ZongShen story, but really more about CSC. My last post touches on this indirectly, but fundamentally the real winning or losing here goes on at the importer. ZongShen will sell many times more of this model to other countries. Plus, if it's successful in NA (almost entirely due to CSC's work), they will likely just use that fact to promote sales in other countries who have absolutely massive demands for a relatively big 250.

Exactly correct Carl! However, its the political capital the Japanese manufacturers flexed, (and I'd bet some "hints" Mr. Zongshen got from certain US agencies), as to why he hauled ass!
SO CSC, lets all hope you are looking out. (and over your shoulder/back). You have my $ now. Lets also hope you are long term focused, on importing and supp, oops SUPPORTING a motorcycle YOU are saying you stand behind, and are offering a pretty fantastic warranty on, IMHO. Can you , no, HOW can you warranty our motorcycles, if NHTSA or EPA gets Jap pressure to shut you down? If you bankrupt, or say screw this (as I would) what can we do after we have bikes uncompliant, and no importer, much less dealer!
In support of CSC, It would look REALLY BAD if NHTSA, and EPA decided to run CSC out of business. Easy, but really shitty. Here's hoping government, for ONCE does the right thing! (not SOShit)!

Hey Thill, I'm betting CSC is pretty aware of this. Regarding Japanese companies putting up brick walls, it is possible but I wouldn't imagine it happening until sales started to bit into a line they already offer. There are no current Japanese models that are comparable to this so probably won't be a big issue. Also worth noting is some of the Japanese bikes are made by Chinese manufacturers so it may not be in their interest to start pissing matches on the other side of the Pacific.

Like you said, the real trick is promoting and supporting this model for several years until the next gen, or totally new model, comes out. Either way, I think we all hope CSC the best of luck!

CC

Absolutely agree, Carl. As someone who has the tendacy to bite off more than I can chew/handle from time to time, I thusly speak from experiences:) hehe.

Hopefully, they will handle those MOST important issues first, and stay on them u til sales are stabilized, parts are stocked in sufficient quantities that allow us to maintain and service our bikes.

I think that there is a pretty amqazing amount of support for CSC currently, and a minimal amount of naysaying even, as the initial persons issues were broken down and shown meritless (as much as could be withut us actually having our bikes and doing actuual miles and trips to report back on. Actually servicing the bikes, maintaining them remotely from CSC, without dealers. It could be perfect, and great. It could be a NIGHTMARE, also, if they are unprepared for a huge sales demand, before safeguards are pt in place, and before support services are set up and in place.

I'm keeping fingers crossed and hoping my bike is all I am dreaming about, and will allow me to do what I want to with it (and my sons) where we can ride some adventures together:)! Hopefully, set up some annual events/rides/get togethers, and meet some fellow RX-3 rider/owners at some great places to ride. (Like Tail of the Dragon/Blue Ridge Pkway on East Coast, and some similar in the West Coast as well.

Hopefully, everyone will keep some small amount of "the voice of reason" to keep things in perspective;)! The bikes make CSC some $ and the line expands to add a 450/500 cc model and maybe the 125 as well, for beginner riders and smaller riders.

Also, Carl,
I just thought someone should put the POSSIBLE issues out there to be aware of, pondered on a little, maybe, but IF something starts, we can all be aware, and write letters to Congress, or whatever CSC and their Lawyers want us owners to do to help. Key would be a hard hit really quickly back at whomever agency starts with the initial hit, hopefully with enough people, and the correct wording etc in the replies and support of CSC and the bikes, that the agency decides that maybe pickings are easier elsewhere;)!! hehe.

If CSC has done what they promised, and are trying to support us and the bikes (as I fully expect them to CONTINUE doing:),
then it would not be imprudent to ask and expect even owners of RX-3's and other CSC bikes, to take some time and write/email, call, (whatever they need us to do to help), IMHO, so we can continue to enjoy CSC importing and sales and servic, parts uport, etc, as usuall...

Really, I think their AMAZING amount of honesty, FULL and truthfull , openness with the entire process from EPA certification, through Dock workers strike and delay of shipping our bikes, the Zong factory visit, adding upgrades as available (without a price increase!! even on the smoking original deal for us early adopter/buyers. Especially rectifying the worrisome 15" tire issue! (though stator upgrade will be handy also, in WInter especially:)!
This helps us feel better about any reservations we initially may have had, IMHO. Its very important to build that trust with initial buyers, as there will, most likely, be some initial issues with the bikes and additional distribution hassles and probles in addition to dock workers striking. The openness and honesty will alsobreed patience with all this, I think.

This I KNOW, though. I have NEVER seen a post re ANY productbeing shipped from ANYWHERE:) before this purchase, and new websittes springing up to support it, etc. To me, this PROVES that Zongshen (and cSC) are seeing EXACTLY what the market wants to buy, but heretofore could not, as it wasn't available, at ANY price from a manufacturer. We could buy something to mod (like CRF 250L or Yamaha WR 250, add 4000.00 worth of tank, panniers and mounts, engine protection,and all the handguards, tank bag etc. SOe we will also need to add to our RX-3 as well, but waaay less, I'm budgeting 1000, for mine, and already have GPS mount, bids on heated clothing and associated riding gear.

Great write up on the RX-3! Thats the best "advertising" since money can't buy good ride reports/press, since its not purchased, so should be non biased. Since CSC isn't made of $ (like other manufacturers and importers) they aren't gonna get butt kissing articles so the spend huge $ on advertising for their product "line". Makes me feel that the article is a TRUE representation of the riders experiences riding the bike:). Additionally, the other articles the other internet magazines are very close to the same plusses as your article, again, good reinforcement of its accuracy in the ride reports:).

Honestly, I feel pretty dang good that the ownership experience and riding experience is as described in the article, and will be exactly what I wanted in my next bike, and need to do proper adv rides in the future:).

The engine will be the gem of this bike, considering it is used in a few other bikes. That is the big thing, considering some of the early adopters of the CFMoto 650's according to their posts seemed to have problems in that area. Any engine or engine part or the rest of the RX3 can be sourced directly from China via TaoBao, but I am assuming CSC will have parts as well. My 'lowly' TMEC 200 is well supported by its distributor, so I would think that CSC would do the same

Calcune,
That "lowly" TMEC is a pretty great DS/adv bike, IMHO, at least as reported on the ADV website, this site, and chinarider.com:)! That Spud moderator guy (on Crider) has over (he's out riding today as its 60 degrees in Idaho, he said! has OVER 67,000!! miles on his "lowly TMEC". Pretty dang impressive, to me, and a GREAT portent to my new RX-3's expected durability and lifetime.

Actually, TMEC is an independent company that uses a proprietary engine manufactured by Zongshen. Spud's bike and engine was manufactured by Zongshen, and the engine his uses was a unique-for-Chinese manufacturers engines in that it was a near identical replica of the same engine used in the Yamaha TW200, whereas the majority of Chinese 200cc engines are clones, but not necessarily identical to any one, old Honda CG engine. Of course, the RX3 is utilizing an engine not based (for the most part) on anyone else's design.

My post was bringing up the fact that even my bike, a rare, inexpensive clone bike, has very good aftermarket support (which is not the norm for the most part), so I am guessing that CSC will provide good aftermarket support. I think the engines are proving themselves more and more as they are used in the SSR dirt bike, as well as AJP, and have been giving people good reliability in the countries that already have RX3s, and that is the biggest battle with Chinese bikes--the engines. If you speak to a naysayer today, they will most surely tell you about a friend of an uncle's brother who had a Chinese bike and the engine blew up on him the minute he turned the switch. Of course, these engines (the Honda clones and the Yamaha clones) have been proving themselves. The bikes themselves have issues usually related to substandard bolts, but those would be more likely found on bikes like my cheap enduro, and the low-cost and popular Bashan enduros. I can guarantee, the RX3 will keep you guys happy riders for years and years.

If anything cannot be found in the US or any other market as far as parts go--Taobao will be there to keep you on the road! :riding:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by culcune

Of course, the RX3 is utilizing an engine not based (for the most part) on anyone else's design.

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Isn't that Italian "Beta" 450 cc lower engine with SOHC 4V 250 cc upper engine?

That's where the 'for the most part' comes in :mwink:

For years, we have seen Honda-like engines produced by the millions, as well as some Suzuki copies and, like I mentioned, Yamaha copies, but this engine is not a well-known engine. If it is close to Beta, there is most likely some kind of joint venture deal :deal: in there, rather than copying. Zongshen is tied in with Piaggio and others nowadays, so the lines get blurred...

I notice that this engine is used on bikes of some lesser-known makers (for example, one which design attracted me - "Fekon Carlo" 250), which is definitely a good thing.

I sincerely hope that this engine, as well as those 250 cc "Yingang" AX-1 and "Loncin" 300 cc KLX engine clones will become more extensively used on Chinese bikes. Those are not 400 to 600 cc, but it is "a step in the right direction". Honestly, I feel sick of these old CG-CB-CBF-GS-GN-TW-YBR-CM clones.

I would like to see these liquid-cooled engines being used more and more. The Portugese company, AJP, is using the Zongshen engine for a few of their bikes, but I also believe they are using air-cooled CG engines as well on some of their bikes. The US company, SSR, is also using this engine on their full-size dirt bike, which I believe is manufactured by Asiawing.

http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/...bike-index.htm

we like a good website, however the meat is in a parts indexed ordering system, NO?
http://www.ssrmotorsports.com/store/parts.html

Oh, yes. This engine are already on the streets, so we will get some feedback about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9b-ip86yD0

Where is that, Zorge? These are Chinese motorcycles?

That was presentation of new "Baltimotors Dakar" bikes (some Russian brand; ~3.2k bucks) - http://baltmotors.ru/motocycles/dakar_250_enduro . You can find the same bike in Ukraine as "GEON Dakar" (~3.65k bucks) - http://www.svitmoto.com/products/35311.html. I am more than sure that this same bike with that "Zong's" engine which we are interested in, you can also buy somewhere in South America.

I think that bike "per se" is "Asiawing's" NC 250 - http://www.asiawing.com/english/nc250.html