New 320cc offering.
YY350-9A
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...Jonway/350.jpg
Horrible welds....
16,800.00 CNY = 2,643.66 USD
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...62d5751c08.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...9193191038.jpg
Printable View
New 320cc offering.
YY350-9A
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...Jonway/350.jpg
Horrible welds....
16,800.00 CNY = 2,643.66 USD
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...62d5751c08.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...9193191038.jpg
.....as across through all industrial fields welding and suitable coating is the absolute weakness .... I see that since nearly 20 years.
It seems to be this "ChaBuDuo = nearly good/ good enough" mentality where they fail even they have the skills as I have seen too..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRuqb6wquig
It’s a complex matter, productivity as in the faster you go the sloppier it gets. Advanced processes improve productivity and quality, however reduces labor, it shift it to a higher level, the many welders replaced with a few technicians that maintain the robotics. They are stuck on labor intense and modernization sheds jobs and shifts jobs which is a social loss in that respect the manual labor displaced. The cost of modernizing processes and productivity drives operating costs and inflate prices at retail. So they are stuck on hand made and labor intense and in that sloppy, simply because they stop carrying in the constant and repetitive task.
Jonway's new model called a Howelt is being offered factory direct on Taobao.
These seem like they are pretty decent, I read that the engine is very smooth.
From what I understand Johny PAG left his partnership with Lifeng (Regal Raptor) took his production to Jonway.
This model is not offered under the PAG Brand yet, maybe they will offer it?
Video
In addtion to that model there is a faired version that also has the 320cc twin, that is also sold in Argentina under the Zanella brand.
Johnny Pag Falcon
Zanella RZ35R
There is only one person online that posted on the Falcon, here is his videos, which are pretty hard to stand.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxi...AI9pLOFYW1Q77Q
All the owner offers is that after 800 miles he has problems, lots of problems, however as for the Falcon he bought specifically the front brake. To me the video comes off as a spoof created to prevent sales, I am sure it was made in sincerity, its just that the person behind it has no awareness that it is repelling and has absolutely zero production value.
If Pag is selling a few, of what I would call piolet offerings of these, they should really keep track of them, to insure this type of stuff is not all that is occurring for feedback.
Simply this one video actually can stop sales cold opposed to having few intellegent owners posting reviews that could drive sales.
I would sugest dropping the Falcon and bringing in the Howlet and trying again to gain some sales in the market.
Here's another video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwzfRAQl_Ko
BTW, 8-10 years ago, "Jinlun" offered almost the same sort of bikes - "Rebel" clone parallel twin on a sport-ish bike.
You can still get those Jinlun models here in America, What is good about the Howlet is that it does not look like so many other models, plus it has 24hp and EFI, the Falcon does as well however it looks allot like the DF250RTC. The Jinlun frame and body parts are very different.
Here is a video from some good old boy that bought one of the Jinlin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuzLxxj3vM0
I believe that last active EPA certificate for the 250cc model under CIXI Kingring (Jinlun) was in 2012-13, so any that exist for sale in the market could be much older I think they over estimated and imported most in 2009-10.
There is no doubt the reason that Jonway has the production of the 320cc twin is because Johnny Pag brought it to them. So now they are developing models around it. They put it into the copy they have of the BMW F650CS, which they really should stop making. The Howlett should replace that model. As for the Falcon to me it looks like it also needs to be shelved, it’s too common.
That engine is perfect for a scrambler…
That engine would be suitable in this rendition of an old Sanglas by Oberdan Bezzi, it would need to be a full size bike.
http://fotos.subefotos.com/0760325c0...a50220d28o.jpg
The also could make lower cost models with air cooled versions of the CMX250 engine, in that would be just a matter of build quality, it is a suitable engine for North America, Jinlun proved that but failed due to poor quality.
This twin engine, IMO, currently (in this configuration - primarily refers to 2 valves per cylinder) doesn't offer tangible advantage comparing to mainstream 250 cc singles, not to mention those new (or "borrowed") designs. How much this engine costs?
I think that, regrettably, nobody wants to invest some resources to improve this engine, maybe squeeze extra half a dozen ponies, make him to run smoother.
I think the water cooled is that, the evolution of the engine.
I am not sure what the cost of the twin is, most I believe are sourced out of Lifan.
Benda is offering at least one new configuration of the 234cc.
http://i.cantonfair.org.cn/fileserve..._1331598_b.jpg
I would not mind this version less all the chrome, nothing that fancy, the dual exhaust really would make it special, scramblers are my favorite style bikes.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y..._by_obiboi.jpg
That is what I have always thought when seeing literally thousands of Honda Rebel copies and Ninja Knockoff sold here. To me that be a real good get around bike.
OK, water cooled engine and EFI are great, but this engine, even this one bored to 320 cc (is it 21 HP?), is not striking. Plus, as I've heard impressions from the local riders who are use bikes with this engine, those little (125 or 250s) air cooled twins are pretty shaky on revs over medium.
I understand - it is not hard to factory to do some redesigning in order to get smoother run, or even to design new SOHC head with four valves per cylinder (Remember QJ's "Suzie" GS clone with 4V head?), but nobody shows some initiative to do that.
Or to glue on third cylinder, as those Aussies did few years ago. :lol8:
Are you those local young hippies try to hook up girls using the bike's looks?
Jonway is not doing a good job promoting that engine, I have heard that they had worked on it, that it has been improved and has very low vibrations. I believe that the 249cc is about 20hp and the 320cc 24hp.
Here is an advert on Ali express for the Leopard, what they named the copy of the BMW.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...862486441.html
Aside from the engine case of the Jonway looking different, what is unclear is what was done to the internals of it or if anything. The most common cost effective way to reduce vibration is a balance shaft.
It is cheaper to do some crankcase redesign to get better balancing (also all rotating parts - magneto, clutch assembly) and to improve its assembling.
Same happens with the PC CPUs, since i386 era, so why engine displacement can be susceptible to... mismarking?
Even big players in moto world do that. I still remember "scandalous" KTM "Incas" 600 (from the late 80's, one with the funny muffler) with actual 550 ccs. Oh, I was so young and naive - "How can they do that!?". :lol8:
So you are now old and wise, this 400SS N10 is rated 63.5 x63 which is 399cc. May or may not be the same engine in the Motrac MT-400 both state 399cc.
A 35hp 400cc twin is not astounding, unless it was derived from the same parallel twin that was last at 320cc and only offered 24hp, then it is just very unlikely.
No, I just got old. Wisdom didn't came along. :rolleyes1:
Declared bore and stroke are the same for both "Jiajue" bikes, max power too (although, declared torque differs), so "if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck...".
If this 400 cc engine is derived from those old CMX clones, this means that someone did extensive job do apply DOHC 8V head and six speeds gearbox.
It’s not clear where the engine is out of, Jiajue offers engines made by others, they uses NC250 Zongshen engines or either Shineray or Yingang DOHC 250 engines, the twin is new since it is 399cc and the output is decent for that size engine. The images of the engine in the Motrac and the images of the engine in the N10 are of different engines, the specs are not exactly the same but so close, one could assume they are the same engines, however the marketing images of the two twins are obviously of different engines.
A 399cc twin is a significant offering and it being slipped onto a website with little promotion or details is just terrible marketing.
Jiajue dropped its blatant copy of the CB250R Honda, they still are offering a blatant copy of the KTM Duke 390 though and selling blatant copies is a foolish business practice.
There is what can be called a Mini Pile On, the Honda Grom copies and variation numbers are growing so fast, every manufacturer is offering one or more versions. Is there really that much demand for Minis? It to me seems embarrassing, could call it a major industry conspiracy to attain the highest level of embarrassment globally as far and wide as possible? Look everyone is doing it so should you…but they are so dinky, nobody is getting embarrassed ridding them? Not a trend…the Minis are a fad, a cyclical recurring fad.
I still have somewhere neat publication from the 80's called... something like "Who is who in Japanese machinery industry". I'm wondering how many volumes would be enough to acquaint us who is who in Chinese motorcycle industry?
I would understand that we are discussing who made some generic, mainstream engine, some CG, CB, GS clones, but here we have, as it appears to me, something that make a step forward, displacement/power/design-wise, and there is no additional info or announcements about that engine.
Strange situation.
BTW, I written somewhere that this new 400 cc engine is marked as JS-400, and... according to "Jianshe's" official site, it isn't their.
About minis: I thought that belt driven scooters were fad, but look what they did. :icon10:
Here are the engines side by side.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...ue/engines.png
They are different and small compared to all the sleeved down 400cc offered. They look to be bored out engines, the 320cc on the right we know is the left engine is new, but is pretty small.
I see different layout of those two engines, but I don't have idea which engine was (if it is at all) used as prototype. In some manner, looks like "Yami" XS 400 layout, but...
I was wondering, why nobody among dozens of Chinese bike manufacturers didn't stuck in their bike some knockoff of "Briggs & Stratton" V2 "Vanguard" or "Honda's" GX 630/660/690 engine and make us all happy. Imagine: we'll be having bunch of "Guzzi-ish" bikes. :lol8:
They are still in on the GX200 :naughty:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorge
http://www.funbikes.co.uk/upload/ima...03d89970a6.jpg
http://www.funbikes.co.uk/Baja_Big_W...284909%29.aspx
Those single cylinders up to GX 390 (or GX 420) are not... I mean, they aren't... No.
Those I have in mind:
B&S Vanguard
http://www.brandnewengines.com/image...l/100_0627.JPG
Honda GX 690
http://www.brandnewengines.com/image...l/100_0514.JPG
:naughty:
Jokes aside. When we already discuss about engines, I must to say that it is not clear to me that nobody in China didn't, at least, try to fit some 400-500 cc ATV engine on some show-bike, even together with the CVT and make something like "Mana" or NC 700 X. Well, few year ago, Taiwanese "Dinli" showed one matte black cruiser with 800 cc thumper and CVT, but that is all (that I know of). OK, those are relatively expensive piece of machinery, but nobody wanted, at least, to experiment.
here is the MT-400 from the other side.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...jue/MT-400.png
I suspect it is still in development,
The engines you are pointing out are likely under patent, it’s not the same to copy a design as the way something looks, then to copy something mechanical while it is under a patent. Honda also has some patents on their automatic the DCT transmissions as on the NC700, I suspect that China is short on engineering something that is or would be considered acceptable to many. Point out one thing that has not been done before, they modify in some cases and eventually will likely innovate but that is going to be off in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorge
Consider the three wheeled reverse trikes, people would think hey that should be great, those that have reviewed them have called them death traps with front ends that are possessed, they are not even align-able.
This engine and its lack of PR could be due to that it is so bad and did not work out that they barely market it? They have a strange characteristic in Chinese society, cannot talk back to management only contributions flow down, its like the line of command in the military, in many of the Chinese businesses. Hide obvious mistakes as if nobody will ever see them, as if not mentioning it means it did not happen. It explains many things like how a website is published with so many inaccuracies, with bad grammar. A CEO can mandate a deadline without conferring with a subordinate engineer, sometimes it is actually required to revisit the drawing board, but some will not speak out, the results are not often appreciated.
Part of why not....
I think it's the weight and the "bulkiness" that pose the biggest problem. Much like the "unicorn" of the touring bikes - the diesel engine!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorge
It looks that these guys from Fuzhou don't know that - http://www.launtop.com/Prod/View/13Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
All the rest you wrote - nothing to add or disagree.