its 520Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtiewagon
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its 520Quote:
Originally Posted by bowtiewagon
Thankx AXA .. 520 ..
im itching to tear down the engine and have at it... but for me riding season aint over for at least a month...
but it rained today, so i thought i would start looking for myself what it will take to apply these 'secret' :jerkoff: weaver mods
First the intake.
The ports matched spot on, and the casting wasn't nearly as bad as i expected. There were some casting marks as seen here on the left.
These will be removed, and the sand marks will be eased down a bit.
Not much to do, not much to gain.
Attachment 13993
In the back from the top you can see the valve fairing pretty sleek and in line, no point to fill or manipulate in any way.
The exhaust:
On this side its hard for anything to be very aerodynamic really, as the face of the valve gets in the way when open.
It will be polished down to a fine finish, but its short and sweet, again not much to be gained here.
Attachment 13994
Now the a potential issue i found has to do with the crap stock exhaust gasket.
Basically its just one of those rolled up piece of cardboard wrapped in a thin metal sheet gaskets.
Nothing to keep it from unraveling and interfering with the flow path, and im sure this one is doing that a bit and needs to be replaced.
Had needed to reconstruct this one as it was falling apart.
Attachment 13995
Now after all that i was a bit disappointed, the port and polish isn't going to do a hell of a lot. but then i saw this:
Attachment 13996
this is the carb spacer, not sure if you can see but it is riddled with bumps and lumps, never mind the bend...
I supposed that spacer was inserted to allow the feedback from the SAI, as well as back it off from the engine mount, but otherwise it cant be helping.
So i decided it had to go, shouldn't hurt.
After tapping a new set of carb mounting holes, m6x1, I now have this spacer-less mounted carb.
Attachment 13997
Curious to see what if anything it will do for the intake flow...
[ UPDATE: now with this spacer removed i have to back off the air intake by applying 20-25% choke. Seems that removing the spacer in one way or another increases air flow (be it becuase there is less flow resistance, or that it has repositioning my reverse air ram).
I guess it is the less resistance becuase the angle of the ram is reduced into headwind.
I'm sort of surprised to the degree this increases flow. More than drilling out the cat.
I dont expect to get any better flow with the head polishing.
Anyway, this seems promising as it may allow to bump the jets up]
By the way it seems the stock head gasket are likely a good 50 mil. by recent whispers, it seems possible just honing down mating surfaces, one might be able to eliminate the gasket and thereby increase the compression ratio. I may try this first before milling down the head.
bow,
It is a 520 chain. Definitely needs to be replaced and looks dry as a bone also. You been oiling it?
I assume you bought sprockets for a 520 chain, right?
I'd spring for an o-ring chain then oiling is not so important but still should be done and as mention should last 30k miles.
axa,
For some reason I failed to get email notification of the posts here and I though it was very quite so I checked.
I agree that most of the mods that Gordo claimed were bogus except for milling the head. I seem to remember that the Heist came with a non pumper carb so all they did was use the pumper carb and the jet sizes that we on the the DF thread came up with.
I checked the ports like you did and also did not see any need for porting but failed to check the short intake manifold.
Looks like you are on to something there.
So are you gong to pull the hand and try to true up the surfaces and run without a gasket? In the old days we would use a thinner head gasket or mill the head to raise the compression ratio.
Ya it really bums me out when people lead others down a false path...Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
And he does it so fervently with such disregard, knowing full well most what he is saying is just crap. And there is no other end game than merely to convince others that he has, or has achieved, something that they have not and can not, cuz its not possible.
So for an extra grand +, the heist doesn't even give you a carb with an accelerator pump?
So here is the final piece of the 'secret' carb upgrade, and the ccw 'racing' carb... it's merely the same carb that comes stock on the DF stock.
Of course it is also magically 32mm if you listen to gardo.
X'st sake, please someone tell that Im wrong (and then back it up).
By the way did you say you got kicked off the hiest forum for having the balls to speak the truth? it wasn't this site's heist forum was it?? Or was it this post that did it?
:bowdown: Classic, call a spade a spade. I dont know how that guy looks himself in the mirror. No wonder that thread died, pathetic really, but i digress.
Yes, just removing that short intake manifold my tune is entirely off, im hoping this indicates flow potential. Tell me how far off was the 120 jet you previously attempted? Im maybe 20% applied choke to run after warm.
Yes, Ill inspect and if true enough first just try a .015 thin gasket.
Then mill if need be, and if i get to the point that both heads are true ill continue gasketless taking it down until ive gone too far and start seeing problems like difficulty turning over, or timing issues. Then I'd back off by inserting gaskets... or else I'll try to continue until I achieve +2 pts, but im sure ill hit a problem first.
Yes sir, 520 sprocket. Did a how to on buying a new chain, and I am going to take every ones advice and get a O-Ring chain for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
As for my chain, Yes I had been oiling it up regularly, but with the Texas weather, and my lack of knowledge on motorcycles, just using a 40 weight oil was probably not all that good. So thanks every one for the assist. Will keep ya posted.
axa,
The Heist forum that I was kicked off was the one on the Cleveland CycleWerks web page.
The 120 jet seemed to be too much fuel but I guess the problem might have been restricted air flow.
This engine just seems to not have the same power at higher RPM as my 2010 DF had but that could be a faulty memory on my part. I did run 68 MPH GPS on my old DF and can only manage 65 MPH indicated on my 2012 DF with the about same gearing and the same jetting. That is probably only 60 MPH GPS as the speedometer appears to me to be off by 10%. The engine does seem to have good power until about 4500 RPM and then goes flat.
I hope you are on to something with the air intake. I ordered a shorter intake off Ebay and will report on it when I test it.
Also ordered a head gasket that I hope will be thinner.
Actually, I am enjoying the bike as is for now. Reasonable top speed here in the mountains is usually only 50 or so anyway.
When I hit the flat lands of FL in a month for the winter then the top speed will be insufficient.:lol8: They will run over me there.:eek2:
Continuing search for more ccs lead me to
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/prod...752848938.html
$130 shipped to USA
Asked vendor if it will fit the DF motor and what cc will it be.
Probably another wild goose chase.
The cylinder can be purchased separately and it has a 75mm od skirt so could stand some overbore if a larger piston can be found.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/LONCI...079925191.html
Here is a 70mm piston.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/70MM-...752380917.html
There's always going with a CV carb.Could help bottom end.Doubtful top end would get any better than the pumper carbs.
so is that what a vacuum carb does... not yet sure that would attain anything the shorter intake doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ben2go
From what i gather, a shorter intake may help the low end by providing air that is available right there right now. While a longer or thinned out one may actually help with funneling and speeding up the air for help with top end.
since i currently need to run with the choke a bit (due to removing the intake manifold), i currently only attain 6.5k rpm tops. That last 5k is seemingly a big disadvantage limiting my top to no better than 55, indicated. The local town dump truck passed me on the way to work this morning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
You might just go to your local auto place to get thin gasket sheet stock, then cut to your profile... i doubt a thin gasket is what you will be getting with pre-made.
That piston seems to be spot on, but id have too much reservation about those cylinder bodies, they seem to be quite off... and the description would have you believe they will fit everything, which i doubt.
If it were to just relocate mounting holes or making clearance for the rods, i wouldn't think too much of it. But i would fear there are other slight differences in how it lines up with the head, perhaps the matching head could be attained...
Also those intake ports seem to be way off as well, not sure that matters though.
So anyone have experience with aliexpress? seems to be alibabas' answer to ebay, but no better pricing.
I can get a replacement cylinder body for our bike for less than $40 delivered to my door. They want double those. maybe i cant compare, since i dont know if those are mass produced parts or not. though i suspect they might be are on atvs...
Instead of using an accelerator pump to add fuel,the carb meters fuel based solely on the vacuum signal from the engine and butterfly valve position.The slide is controlled by a spring instead of the throttle cable.If you're running with the choke on,your engine is running lean.Quote:
Originally Posted by axa
you don't say... :confused1:Quote:
Originally Posted by ben2go
so anyway, today i started to do the retune.
Got lucky and a friend had an old keihin 99101-393 series main jet laying around...
It being way too big at 160 he gave me the idea, we filled it back in with copper solder, I then redrilled starting with a #56 bit.
Then my luck ran out... took it over to install when it slips through my fingers down the floor drain... that grate really should be finer...
Anyway a good tip if your looking to fine tune and have a set of number and metric drills.
He guessed he probably filled in and drilled out that same jet a few times since we were kids.
I would never have thought of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
That much of a difference does seem a bit hard to explain.
Are you sure they were both 167fmm? As far as you know both from zongshen?
Did the old DF have the intake manifold?
Well i do suppose i maybe on to something, but i wouldn't have thought you would translate that into just shorting the port rather than eliminating it entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
So why insert another manifold at all? Perhaps you dont care to retap?
i can dig it.
And it was a bit of a pain as i did it with the head in place.
Also should have or make few specific tools like a short set of transfer punches. Normal length ones wont fit in the carb mounting holes.
As well a set of stubby drill bits... even my mechanics length were too long.
You could get away with jobbers if taking the head off though.
I will say removing the spacer does make adjusting the fuel mix screw a real bitch, but thats not something i plan to do often.
Both engine are 167fmm and look the same to me but what do I know.:lol8:
Manifolds looks the same.
Anybody thought about the CDI being an issue? Like insufficient ignition advance at higher RPM?
I worked at a welding/machine shop as a kid but that was a few years ago. I'll try the short manifold while you do the no manifold deal.
Did you try cleaning up the inside of the stock manifold?
This looks nice. Have we identified these engines as Zongshen for sure?
http://www.chinascooterparts.com/sdp...t_for_ATV.html
Attachment 14035
CY7004 Performance Cylinder Kit for ATV/Dirt bike 250CC engine (167FMM),include piston kit and gasket,change 67MM to 70MM, change 250CC to 300CC
I wonder if there is a difference in cams or rocker arm ratio causing the lack of power compared to the 2010s.
You know the problem is on these sites, they all use the same damn picture... with limited to no detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
We will have to get some confirmation from the seller... thats if they even know, and thats if they care even to answer.
But it may well be a compatible zongshen, and i think we should inquire... you have, haven't you?
If we can confirm, and the price is within reason, im in for sure.
it quickly passed my mind... there may well be science behind an upgrade, but i dont yet know what that would be...Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
I reckon Ill look into this if i start getting timing issues with the decked head.
In that case, ill be looking into an adjustable one.
But for now, since i read someone even on the heist site reported no benefit with a expensive CDI upgrade, those guys exaggerate everything, so my thoughts are elsewhere.
This was though my first thought, the trouble on mine was as many voids in the rubber part as lumps. i think a putty fill would be required. A direct mount seemed actually less work at the time. If i cant balance the intake with jetting ill reexamine.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
Anyway, sure its a valid test to try another length, a straight run would be best regardless. Who knows the tunneling just may be advantageous...
This site has it too. A bit tough to read as their chart formatting was lostQuote:
Originally Posted by barnone
http://www.ywsp.com/products/Perform...s-p460706.html
Been studying different valve modification techniques... removing any the lip on the back of the valves left from the original machining process, seems to be a very popular adjustment. One site reported a 25% increase to flow on the engine they tested it with. A safe adjustment to make because it is not the part that makes contact with the valve seat (which is a related but separate modification entirely)
Attachment 14065
Thinning out and cleaning up the stems is a thought too.
I hope i find them nice and messy cuz I just love having any excuse to chuck something up in the lathe...
Though seeing how decent the head has been so far i don't anticipate much.
And how about this, anybody ever heard of power ringz?
Attachment 14066
“Why do such an idiotic thing?!?!?!?” you ask? All of the fuel entering the engine will bounce off the intake valve. It is rather hot since it just came out of a combustion cycle. The air will take the short-cut across the seat, and the heavier fuel elements in the intake charge will centrifugally slam against the back of the valve. These Powre Ringz will increase the surface area of the intake valve helping to vaporize more of the fuel. Some of the fuel droplets will hit the ridge of one of these Ringz and bounce off in several dozen smaller sized droplets. Some of the liquids will actually hit the valve and stick, radially thin out, then vaporize into the incoming air stream. Bottom line is liquid fuel doesn’t burn, and Powre Ringz will promote better vaporization.
axa,
The stock manifold is curved to get the carb float bowl level whereas the straight short manifold has the float bowl sitting at too steep an angle. I believe you are going to find the same problem with the direct attachment. Also I checked the interior of the stock manifold and it is pretty smooth. The rubber part of the interior of the manifold is a little rough but not enough to cause a problem IMHO.
Again IMHO the rubber section acts as an isolation zone to reduce vibration and heat to the carb from the engine. Probably a good thing to keep.
Yup, ive decided to clean and smooth out the manifold then put it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
I now know the angle for sure is a valid concern, which explains why I'm stalling on quick stops.
Ill must consider it to why have to now drive with choke applied, getting less fuel due to the tilt.
I did rule out the idea that removing the manifold was somehow slowing down the air and weakening the venturi effect.
But less fuel due to something, be it tilt, does supports the fact i now have less output.
Less output because im throttling more air flow just doesn't explain things.
Also I suppose vapor lock is a potential problem if the carb gets hot.
Hey Barnone - Glad to have found this thread. Sounds like you know your stuff. I got a hold of one of these bikes last month and parked it right next to my CCW Heist...lol... Haven't stopped fiddling with them from day one. They are both nearly identical as far as guts, frames are different and blah blah blah... Happy to check out any differences for you if you wanna know. The DF is just as good, in some ways better, some things need alittle attention. I've already yanked emmissions,'catalytic converter', rejetted, and dropped the rear sprocket to a Honda Rebel 33T. I'm pretty happy with it. It is actually gonna get a new custom frame as this winter's garage project. Anyway...MY MAIN QUESTION is where do we get parts for this thang?! I ordered mine thru Extreme-Scooters.com, and have sent them an inquiry on parts, but they seem to have better things to do than call Sunny and order stuff for me. I grabbed your parts list from this thread, but is there an online source for parts for this bike? ( what'll piss off the Heist purists the most is that the DF exhaust sounds WAY better right out of the box - which is what I am trying to get ahold of to put on my Heist... ) Anyway, I've been building and rebuilding and breaking and reshaping bikes for about a decade now and have discovered these little Chinese bikes to be just enough fun and headache to keep my busy on the cheap. Nice to meet you - and the rest of the DF owners. I completely dissassembled Tha Heist and built my own intake and exhaust, and recognize all of the engine parts on the DF. I know my stuff on mods, so feel free to ask me anything.
igouge,
Good to have you board. I'm familiar with the Heist which is as good a bike as the DF.
Both are east to mod and fool around with. I don't want to get in a pissing match between the Heist, 2010 DF, and the 2012 DF.
All are decent DIY bikes.
I bought both my 2010 (sold) and 2012 DFs from Chad at http://www.extremescooters.biz/gas-p...-choppers.aspx
The only DF OEM part I've needed was a 2010 gas tank replacement (2010 tank was leaking) that I got from Chad.
As far as I know there is not an online part supplier for the DF. I guess you gotta call or email.
How about some photos of your DF mods? Don't need any photos of Heist mods.
specifically how much will i need to deck my head to gain 2 points?Quote:
Originally Posted by igouge
This may have been answered but you could do what I did. Take the part number right off the DF schemattic, even with the chinese symbols and paste them into google search and you might be surprised at what you will find. I got a new exact replacement oil dip stick this way and even the seller said it was NOT for my bike, it was for a Honda LOL. They tried to talk me out of the purchase but it was an exact replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by igouge
Just food for thought.
Hey barnone, I have a really slow leak on my 2010 that I have yet to get too. What company does Chad work for? And how much did it cost?Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
Was it pre painted etc? This I would really like to know. Thx.
You really should not be riding a bike with a slow fuel leak. That is a bomb waiting for a spark to go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoX
As I stated in my post
"Chad at http://www.extremescooters.biz/gas-p...-choppers.aspx"
Click on the "Contact Us" button.
The DF 2010 painted tank was replaced under warranty for free several years ago.
I agree!
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
Glad to see you made it here from FaceBOOK