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axa,
Have you had the battery load tested? Will your battery start your DF?
I was looking at buying a 1989 Toyota truck the other day. The seller had to put a battery pack on the truck to start it.
Removing the battery pack from the running truck and the truck would die. The guy put a new battery in it and all was fine. I bought the truck and been driving it with no issues. The truck would not run with the dead battery in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
I do not have/have not load tested the battery.
Yes the battery will start the df again and again when the battery has been running at idle (the ~12v i mention) or has been removed and externally charged.
i suspect a larger engine would have trouble turning over with a battery just charged to 12v as this problem leaves it, but even my higher compression DF can start like this.
I'm not arguing that at this point my battery could well be bad. but I am strictly speaking of what the bike is doing IN SPITE of the battery.
Then i am adding to the discussion on how that may well be hurting our batteries.
I really don't know enough to say how old cars work, but if its ignition is anything like a bike, there are AC CDIs and there are DC CDIs.
If it is a DC coil there will be no spark made when the battery is out (for some reason i am not aware) it requires a battery installed.
A bike with an AC CDI doesn't.
Our bikes have an AC CDI and thus will run without a battery, as will most modern cars...
This guy explains how this works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBDNkdc45g
[EDIT: I just looked up the answer, it appears it depends if the car has an alternator which will run w/o battery, or a generator which will not run w/o]
This discussion has less to do with the battery, only I had first mistakenly thought that the battery was the basis of the problem.
Hope someone gets the chance to disconnect their battery while running and see what they get across those leads.
Then measure what they think is a fresh battery, I suspect you will see it match your sub-par idle voltage.
Just as your car alternator, these leads need to provide an adequate voltage to provide adequate current to the system, and charge the battery ... not reduce the voltage and dim the headlight and drain the battery.
I'm in Blacksburg,VA so can't check on disconnecting the battery and run your test for a few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by axa
well... the offer is good for anyone willing to accept the challage....Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
if I am not mistaken,the wiring diagram that was posted showed the CDI wired into the 12DC side.I've never seen a bike that has an AC CDI.none of my 7 bikes have an AC CDI.They are all DC CDI tapped into the DC fuse panel.
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I found something interesting which leads me to perhaps conciser we may have a universal CDI wired as DC
http://www.atvsnetweb.net/asset/edge...vp/acdccdi.jpg
but this one says something different:
http://www.kazumaracing.com/images/i...-6pinSPECS.jpg
Our CDI is using a 5 wire hookup so... what can i say
Im going to stop commenting here until i rip apart the wiring and figure out exactly what the deal is.
http://atvconnection.com/forums/chin...o-spark-2.html
Barnone, AXa ,,, I have just got a problem agin hope you guys can help with,,, just had the bike pass the registration test went to ride it to the MOT center to finalise all documentation and lost Left side indicators ???? checked lamps and then basic wiring plugs etc,,, all seem sound right was working now lost all indicator's...... can you pass any wiring drawings for these bikes or parts list for a new flasher box ?? were can I order etc ??? or even if I have missed looking for something ,,,, all your help is much appreciated... don't forget mines the 125 RTB if that makes any difference.
booi10,
Probably not much help but a parts lists for the DF250RTB is at http://www.df-motor.com/MLC/Parts%20...0RTB(2014).pdf
#5 on Page 21 is the flasher.
that manual is riddled with errors, I've ceased to reference it
anyway pulled the r/r on my bike and found it was allowing way too high voltages. ordered a new one.
if both left side indicators, might be related to the switch. just a single light may indicate a bulb.Quote:
Originally Posted by booi10
check each connector is clean and secure.
I just found worn wire insulation that got pinched between the tank and frame.
it could be many things.
Im at a loss....
Leaving the battery in.
Disconnecting the stator output from the R/R, measuring consistent AC voltage (about 16VAC RMS) through each coil, which only increased with increased rpm, and that there are no shorts from each of the 3 nodes to ground, i judged the stator good.
Reconnecting the stator output to the rectifier input stator, measuring the disconnected R/R output, i measuring a reduced DC voltage that only decrease as RPM increased, so i could only judge the R/R must be bad...
So i purchased and installed a new R/R but I_have basically the same situation....
I cant fathom why the old and new do not give a consistent 12-15 dcv.
What am i missing?
Out of ideas, and seeking advice from the experienced in the hoard...
barnone. your big bore is finally here...
brought to you by the highly skilled R&D team at ccw:
http://cleveland-cyclewerks.theshopp...ry/performance
300cc of raw screaming and illegal power...
so be sure to read the disclaimer and note these modification are to be limited to the 'closed course race track only',where this explosive power can be safely unleashed...
so where do I begin...
first of all that is a 69.5 mm piston, which equates to a 246.6cc engine... that's quite a stretch don't u think... don't even call it a 'true 250' just jump right to 300..
why stop there, a 333 has a nice ring to it...
now i haven't done any research in to this but if you were to bore the original cylinder you would end up with only a 1.75mm cylinder wall at best.
Boretech refuses to bore to anything less than to 3mm so I doubt this is happening...
then if you take a look at the sticker placed on the wiseco piston box, you can see "11.1 CR", more horse shit.
I ran the numbers and the larger bore will only yield a 9.39:1 ratio. that is allowing the benefit that the original 67mm head is used in the calculations. for if u calculate with a proper 69/70mm dome, that number drops back near 9:1
The original piston is domed to begin with, and no where does this kit suggest anything in regards to a decked head, so the suggested higher compression is simply not possible without further machine work of decking the cylinder mating surface.
next scroll on over to the pic of the cylinder itself, there u see a virgin UNMACHINED part complete with a messed up mating surface with genuine scratches due to poor packing on the long boat trip from China... every head and cylinder I've seen had these... then look at my profile to see what an actual decked surface looks like.
now on to the over head pic of the cylinder and you can see the virgin unmachined fully think cylinder sleeve walls, this head wasn't bored either.. so niether the required bore nor decking has been displayed...
maybe they just ran out of inventory on this hot item and had none to take photos of...
but at 420$ plus shipping, nearly the cost of a fully assembled, ready to go, true 169fmm entire engine, let's just say I have my doubts.
at best they found, and found a way to squeeze an off the shelf cg169fmm cylinder kit into the transmission... but I also have reservations about this as i needed to slightly grind some of the transmission case away in order to fit the slightly thicker cylinder sleeve on my replacement 67mm cylinder..
I'm not buying any of this quite yet, but I will look into seeing if a cg169fmm cylinder kit really does exists, and then I'll really deck it to an 11:1 CR !
Well I guess that CCW could not call it a 250cc big bore kit since they use to claim that the stock engine is 250cc.
These guys are still advertising "Change your CG250 67mm air cooled engine (167FMM)to 70mm bore,Kit include piston kit and gasket".
http://www.chinese-parts-canada.com/4_stroke_big_bore_kits.html
I never have gotten an answer from them.
Anyway, I'm happy with my DFs performance for now.
Maybe DF will put the overhead cam engine in the Df250RTB's next generation.
if DF goes to an ohc, I'd likely sell the 2012 and get one.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
so I searched all night for a 169 or 170 fmm...
several proved to be 167, many had no info at all, and a few weren't even a cg clones...
Of all I only found one with a considerable possibility of being true...
I'm still not convinced a larger cylinder will fit, nor is it a good idea to shave the outside of a cylinder sleeve so it will fit the crack case.
Generally, when a "big bore" kit is installed,the crankcase has to be bored larger to fit the increased diameter of the new cylinder/jugs.
(on a Yamaha 250/249cc ,it can be increased to 334cc- $599.95 and one owner said it made a BIG difference in grunt).
personally, I just use a bigger bike,if I need that much more power...
The wiseco piston and rings are US made.The piston pin boss is machined a tad bit lower than stock which allows the piston to rise further up in the bore,more compression.It's one of the tricks they used and I figured it out after installing quite a few in my bikes over the years.I had to raise the cylinder block on my GS 569 project by shimming to keep pistons from hitting the valves.They didn't know I was using Megacycle high lift long duration cams in my build.I bought them before the cams.
no doubt it's s a good piston, i confirmed wiseco made it in a custom run of 'at least 4 parts'. it's quite reasonable they reposition the gudgeon pin to meet their claimed CR.
and no boring of the crank case, confirmed they bore the original cylinder. I always wondered how thin it could go.
the stock cylinder sleeve is 3mm thick, a 69.5 bore leaves the walls at 1.75mm.
I always wondered how thin u could go, surely no long term endurance testing could yet be done but I'm all for trying...
just personally wouldn't want to be a guinea pig at ~450$ a pop, with no warranty.
it's a hard sale when you could get a true 170fmm entire engine with greater displacement for not too much more.
or better yet a CB type OHC with significantly more power, both I believe drop in replacements.
anyway I must admit I expected this was just a 169fmm cylinder kit strait off eBay.
But it's warranted criticism, 300cc is far from the actual 246. and the claimed gain of "4-6 HP" with their decked head on a 10 -12 HP engine is undisputed BS as well.
so really couldn't believe they did any of the actual leg work on this.
so I hit 68 mph indicated for the first time yesterday. and that was with a partially closed choke, I haven't yet the time to rejet after all the head work. I'm running 110 main now, so i do get the hint there is some gain left to squeeze out.
but I'm a bit cautious to push things for another couple hundred miles after the first oil change. I wouldn't be surprised to find some of my exploded piston or exhaust valve in the oil screen.
but the head work has proved effective for me, I'm going to continue with it to an 11 or 11.5 CR this winter...
axa,
Sounds good. Is 68 indicated GPS or speedometer? True speed?
it's stock speedometer...Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
63-64 was the best I ever saw previously, back when I beat the bike hard...
this was on the same stretch road a gradual decline, on the way home from work...
I might have reported earlier but I am now able to hold over 50 on the same road but on the incline on the way to work .
There i recall i used to lose velocity, sometimes to the point in need to down shift, but then being at the red line, so it didn't solve anything.
Getting passed by the garbage truck I think lead me to this search for power.
putting in the 115 main jet now, unfortunately I don't have a 112
Someone has to do me a favor and disconnect their R/R output (the red, black, green wire side) while the bike is running and tell me what readings they get.
Ive now have 2 that both appear to function, or rather malfunction, in the same way so im quite surprised.
Again, from what i understand, the reading should roughly be 12v dc at idle, and then increase as rpm increases, but as your tired of hearing me state, my dc readings decreases as rpm increase..
So, I think i know why, but it would be nice for someone to confirm they get the same results...
It appears that these Rectifier/Regulators do a pretty good job of regulating voltage, but falls short in the way of Rectifying it... Specifically in creating the consistent dc component that is expected.
I bench tested one these placing it on my scope. Fed up to 36V AC pp between 2 of the inputs, that would be normally 1 of the 3 phases from the stator... but what i measured on the output was NOT a half rectified wave at 120° as expected. Rather it was a mirror image of the input, in other words it was also an AC sine wave??
But more importantly, there was apparently very little Reservoir capacitance to smooth (retard voltage roll off) and create the dc component.
I go on to speculate that since little of this rectifying is happening, as the frequency increases, the effect of any reservoir capacitance decreases, even less smoothing, and thus less RMS power...
maybe this is just how the R/R this bike comes with works. Its not to say there is no power is generated, perhaps enough to keep the battery from depleting, but what do i know...
Im suppose i will look into adding a reservoir cap, and see how that helps things...
But honestly this stuff bores me and im tired of it...
Anyone ever try a different model R/R?
axa,
Where are you measuring the voltage when you disconnect the rectifier? Battery? I'll go take a look at my DF.
# 3 at
http://www.scooterdepot.us/parts_htm..._list.html#f16
Here is a LONG read that explains the difference between shunt & mosfet R/Rs. Charging System Diagnostics - Rectifier/Regulator Upgrade - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
The best one for the 250 would be the Polaris SH775. The price is high though.
You would have to change the connection plugs.
I know that the china bike fans like to keep the price down and the problems you are experiencing are directly related to that goal.
As I remember... the GREEN wire was the reason for the goofy readings you are getting. Perhaps BarNone could explain why it was disconnected in the past.
if referencing the drawing in that manual, that isnt the R/R they use on the bike at all. At least not my bike...Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
just yet another thing the DF didnt get right in that manual... oddly enough, each of the parts i specifically needed to know about, ive looked up in that manual and found they were entirely the wrong parts.
So, regarding measurements, since what i want to know about is the output of the rectifier, youll want to disconnect the output of the rectifier.
not much concerned with what the battery puts out...
Real curious what it is putting out for others...
this green wire was disconnected before?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by SR.MAILMAN
yea i cant fathom why there are 3 outputs on this thing.
no doubt cheap Chinese parts, but isn't that the motto of this bike... cheap, now cross ur fingers...
so that thread mentions the mostfets being the cheap ones, but having tested these R/R they seem to have both a forward and reverse diode pair for each of the 3 input nodes...
I did not disconnect anything as my DF is doing just fine and don't want to screw anything up.
My measurements with a Harbor Freight digital meter and Shorai battery.
Engine off 13.09 volts
Engine idle 13.17 volts
Engine revved up 13.58 volts
axa,Quote:
Originally Posted by axa
My bad. The parts list I posted was for the 2010.
Should be this one for your DF250RTB-B
http://www.df-motor.com/MLC/Parts%20...TB-B(2014).pdf
page 23
This is what I was refering to:
dimming headlight problem, really easy to unplug the blue and white wire from the dark green wire and plug it into the other blue and white wire like it should have been been in the first place. now my light switch works and my lights don't dim.
An old quote that must be from the 2010 DF model.
At these prices,150cc to 250cc rectifier. I can see why My link to R/Rs would be insulting. I am SORRY I tried to help.
(spending $80.00 on a Bullet-proof R/R & $105.00 for a Shorai battery for My bikes is just the way I roll)
Wrenching for 58 years will do that...