It's always torque (turning power) that is the important factor because hp is directly derived arithmetically from torque:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
brake horsepower = (torque x rpm) / 5252. :naughty:
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It's always torque (turning power) that is the important factor because hp is directly derived arithmetically from torque:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
brake horsepower = (torque x rpm) / 5252. :naughty:
Not torque as much as power at low revs. A lot of people, esp. older drivers and riders, or people who have generally owned cars with large engines like the feeling of lots of power just off idle. Anyone who has ridden in a Shanghai taxi or with my Dad in Canada knows that they shift gears at less than 1400 rpms. To them, power is power just off idle. They think if they rev it up they are 'breaking it.' Cruisers, esp. harleys, work on this perception. They achieve it in three ways. Heavy flywheel, heavy reciprocating mass and small valves openings. This gives the feeling of power at low revs, at the expense of actual power at high revs.
My old 2003 Ninja ZX9R had about 145 hp at the crank. My buddies' Harley Dyna had about 55 hp. But at 2000 revs, the Ninja has about 10 hp and the Harley has about 45. So the Harley 'feels' faster, esp to someone who is just cruising, is a poor rider or is in city traffic. My Ninja didn't develop serious power until about 8500 rpms, well above the Harley's 5500 rpm redline. How does this apply to Chinese bikes?
Well, my friend Nuhaus's Suzuki GZ150 feels faster than my Honda Rebel CMX250, although i have more displacement. That is because his bike is a single cylinder. To a newbie, or to someone who dislikes the revving, or to someone who only rides in the bike lanes, the Suzuki will feel faster. However, my bike is a lot faster on the open road or on city streets.
sun
The best way to achieve this feeling of power at low revs is to minimize the number of cylinders. GM used to be a master of this in the late 80's and early 90's with 2 valve pushrod large 4 cylinder engines. My Dad still maintains his 2000 Pontiac Sunfire (2.5 L, 8v 4, 110 hp) was quicker than my 1999 Ford Contour SVT (2.5 L 24v six, 210 hp) because admittedly my car as pretty dead off idle.
That said, the best cruiser engines below 800 cc are 2v singles, as they put out the kind of power cruiser riders crave. Unfortunately it's impossible to make a single look or sound like a vtwin.
The Big four small cruisers (and their Chinese clones) are all a result of trying to work this out.
The Yamaha Virago 250 is a genuine V-twin. It has small cylinders and 2 valves per cylinder. Unfortunately it's impossible to make a small vtwin make a lot of power without revving it. Also, it's more expensive to make because of the fact it has 2 heads and 2 valvetrains. It makes around 22 hp. The 400 cc version is similar, although power is way down due to attempt to increase the low end (something like 28 hp out of 400 cc's is criminal)
The Suzuki GZ250 is a 2V 250 cc single. It has a lot more torque feeling than the Yamaha and is cheap and simple to make. It doesn't look very cruiserish. Also, it vibrates and sounds like a lawn mower. It makes around 20 hp. Suzuki makes a 650 cc single for the US market, but again is really crippled by the attempt to increase the low end (about 35 hp out of 650 cc's is an atrocity).
The Honda CMX250 is a e2v 233 cc parallel twin. This configuration is cheap to make (only 1 head) and is capable of making the most power. However, it's cylinders are tiny and therefore will not make a lot of power down low. Honda has remedied this by making it very low compression and giving it tiny valves. This slightly increases bottom end at the expense of top end power. it makes about 18 hp. Honda used to have a 450 cc Rebel.
Now, it is possible to get big power out of a small engine. All of the big4 made 250 cc sportbikes with about 50 hp. Honda even made VTZ 250's with about 45 hp in v twins. All of those would feel incredibly gutless at low revs.
Great stuff Jim, but don't forget there is also a lot that can be done with exhausts to achieve the desired torque vs hp.
It's so true that many people think that red lining a bike will break it! If changing rings every 10,000-20,000 kms even with a Chinese made engine is breaking it, well that is a cost I am willing to live with! (In fact our local mechanic changes the whole piston (usually with Sundiro-Honda genuine parts, as it's cost effective and less hassle)).
Attachment 1224Quote:
Originally Posted by davidqc
Attachment 1225
see Chongqing Hibird Motorcycle Industry Co., Ltd. they make a V-Twin Chopper (QH250) pictured above, although while it looks very similar to the photo in your post it's not exactly the same. I think that your photo is of a V-Twin 250cc chopper designed by an American company, that is having them built in Shanghai, or at least the American company is based in Shanghai. I read about this company and the American guys who set it up a while a go. They have a website, but I can't recall the name at the moment... I'll have to go through my long list of favourites in my browser.
There are other V-twin engines; like the Magna 250 does anyone manufacture that V-Twin or the 500cc?
250cc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7LzepcPY_A
500cc
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...w_ascot_01.jpg
Interesting you should talk about the Honda Magna 250. A Chinese company, Chunlan, used to make a copy of it, but they aren't in the showroom at teh Chunlan dealer at the moto market. They aren't on Chunlan's website (I don't know if they ever were). I have seen a fair number cruising around Shanghai, and I have even seen motorcycle police here riding them.
They are 4v 90 vtwins, and are physically a lot larger than the average small cruiser. The engine is a lower tuned version of the VTR250 engine.
Kymco in Taiwan also makes a copy, presumably with Honda's permission (they are a Honda JV) and imports them to North America. The whole package is a whole generation ahead of anything else in the way of a Chinese cruiser.
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/honda/...ermission..jpg
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/kymco/...0-%20Kymco.jpg
I know the Magna 250 isn't in the US. I don't think the engine is either. Are they in Canada?
CC
I have to tell you that the Chunlun websites server is hosting viruses, I cannot stay on it my virus software will not allow it? The software identifies a Trojan application in the site code….
Kymco does not offer the Venox in the USA they only offer one motorcycle, the Quannon with a 150cc and lots of scooters.
They only formalized KYMCO USA in January 2008, they also seem to have a joint venture with Kawasaki to manufacture engines.
I like Kymco (Kwang Yang Motor Company) I like the naked version of the Quannon but only see it offered as a 125cc and not in north America.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...1963/COLOR.jpg
4-Stroke single cylinder, OHC
Air and Oil
124.1 cm3 (56.5 mm Bore x stroke 49.5 mm)
Power: 12.8 hp at 10000 rpm
Torque: 9.9 Nm
Multi-plate clutch in oil bath
5 speed gearbox
In the UK $4,291.00 and you can buy them online.
They do sell the Venox in Canada
http://www.kymco.ca/onRoad.php
and the Quannon 150cc...but no naked version. $3,291.00 US, the Venox sell for $4,700.00 US
The Quannon looks to be well made
If your in Spain you can get the Quannon 125cc above for $3,129.00 US,
http://www.kymco.es/motos/quannon125.html
Because it comes from Taiwan :icon10:Quote:
Originally Posted by Oengus
The Taipei motorcycle show is coming up in April, hopefully get to see one of these when I go.
Cheers!
ChinaV
[QUOTE=bikerdoc;11466]Attachment 1224
Attachment 1225
see Chongqing Hibird Motorcycle Industry Co., Ltd. they make a V-Twin Chopper (QH250) pictured above, although while it looks very similar to the photo in your post it's not exactly the same./QUOTE]
Hey Bikerdoc, a great spot. It looks to me to be right on the money. Well done and thanks. :thumbsup:
Yes they have a good recap on 2009's show here.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaV
http://www.motorcycletaiwan.com.tw/o...port2009.shtml
I like the look of this bike manufactured by Dongben; the bike is a 300cc but only is a 2 valve engine low hp 18@7000 but it has 23N.m/rpm @4500? Would that be midrange torque?
I’d liked to ride this bike has anyone on this site?
Here is a picture of the Dongben 300:
闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁
闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁
闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁
闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁闪烁
The bike is being sold on Alibaba in a dressed up version they come with 125cc-250cc engines.
Consider this; there is no such thing as Xing Yue; there is Star Moon; of which there really is no such thing. Phonetics would dictate it to be actually Sheng Yueh and that being the correct or more correct translation. Something lost something misinterpreted. The levels the steps to move across them confused and often convoluted. Series of character to one which you may not even have, then how is that pronounced and how on earth do you type it on a keyboard?
What would be the root cause, how many steps are there in converting and conveying? When they are equal then they will be the same. I have no ability to convey even the simplest of Chinese.
Its sad, this very cool looking bike is being sold in quantity on Alibaba with unit costs of $1,000! It could be a very decent bike but selling 100 in the US would be tough….that a $100,000.00 investment.
So Joe Shmo sets up an LLC and warehouse…time to take the XLMCO name and drag it through the mud.
The naked version available….so they sell it in volume and at a discount? The online dealers are being outed and its about time. That’s what they have been paying for these bikes, under a grand and then asking 100% markup on them shipped to your door, if you have or need something after that the perpetual run around.
I would say the Chinese are correct, the US does not and is not willing to invest in distribution. I would not they sell the bikes to everyone and drive the price into the earth. Dumb real dumb.
Just sell them through Wall Mart and tell the party to buy AutoZone or Murray’s and then Jiffy Lube? I want the bike for under $3K and with a 2 year warranty. Buy it online and pick it up at wall mart? LOL
If it needs a part you can order it online through Murrays, then if it need work have repair centers everywhere, they will adjust the chain change the oil and off you go. Charge $25.00!
I am tired of the big dealers they are all crooks, sell the bike direct to the people.
My god that bike for $1,000.00 FOB Shanghai ?
How can you sell all the Tank, Lifan and Zongshen street bikes you gots? DUH! Just throw those away...these are the new improved...need parts buy two! You got pay pal?
There is alot of those types of bikes with the 233cc twin...too many
.
What is odd is that all the specs says single cylinder yet I’m seeing two exhaust; the bike above is more than likely sporting a split pipe one into two; I have seen though, specs saying single cylinder and then with pictures of two exhaust outlets on the engine?
Not sure….can or is there such a thing as a dual outlet exhaust chamber design for a single cylinder engine? I believe there is or was in two strokes….but I never come across one of these on a four stroke.
The inaccuracy within specifications has to do with translations and also realms of knowledge. Technical and Chinese to non technical and into English. It get misrepresented and kind of embarrassing or would be if they knew it.
I do not know who these people are…I have nothing against them.
Internet distributer
The bike that David asked about is selling through them and for $3,500 to your door.
Many of the bikes on this site have been moved around I can assure you, I've only been monitoring the market since August 2009 and I been keeping pretty good track of it. I would not be too sure this site is not owned or backed by a Chinese’s investment group? That is all supposition on my part, and I would also assume they are a LLC in the state they operate out of, and that would lead to a phone in an attorneys office.
If each products was linked to a schematic and parts list like the ones used by Loncin Canada.
That would help when the part information needed to be accessed, when necessary, that being for a warranty claim or part order, by a real brick and motor dealer… then the prices would be higher but quality would be traceable. The cost of supporting the system add unit costs.
Each VIN used and associated with a model and a build ID#, the parts all accountable. Then that one thing that’s wrong with that certain model would get resolved.
It’s not that complex, increase the prices and fund a warranty account. Have all three levels contribute to that, the dealer, distributors and manufacturer.
The object is bikes that do not need parts, only wear items. Inventory is a function of the above, and it’s a function of QC.
How do you currently get a part you need…I'll tell you how that works; first you have to take the part off and send it to them, then they figure out what it is and order it from china. If you have a mechanic; they will not play in that game, they will if they are your friend but that really limits people. They rely on web site and blogs to find out what it is and were to get it…man what a pain. If there was a schematic online and with a parts breakdown and attached to a shopping cart it really would make it much less painful.
The point is that no single product line distributor will prevail, they cannot because for a distributor it is about volume and with smaller margins and greater efficiency. They are cutting out the dealers or establishing very small dealers who will never have enough volume to survive. The hand off and hand back and side stepping it all is apparent, you can see it all over the net, its like a giant consumer complaint department.
If they buy a container of bikes, they may get 50 and they may be all from different manufactures. That trader may that sold the bikes may only get $10.00 per bike as a commission? They are not that connected to the manufacturer and neither are you. You can see that in the specs and pictures they use, not that knowledgeable of what they are selling. Then many of the bikes are bought through auctions, those are totally disconnected from the manufacturer. The dealer that is selling them out of his garage cannot make the loan payment the bank repose them, the web dealer that think he has discovered the golden goose…they fail and the bikes come back around.
Many of these bikes are 2006 models…new? It is now 2010; the bikes are four years old. No worry though they are all exactly the same…all the things that broke still break.
My point is that XLMCO bikes have a market, they and other all have a market, they over shot it and it and all rather gross to witness. Tank went bankrupt and the bikes are lingering in the market, while the manufacturer is pushing in new models in through commision based traders.
You can see the Tank products within the XILING “XLMCO” website.
That was not a bad effort, what surprises me is that this Large WUXI based manufacturer did not step in to salvage the TANK distributorship.
Could call that doing a Daewoo? Except Daewoo actually failed in Korea, typically the Koreans do not back away they persist and prefect; XLMCO is not Korean but they should have thought about them and looked at what to do when the efforts fail and how to recover from that.
It’s a domino affect, the distributor failing takes the dealer out with them and orphans products. These foster parents that bought up all the XLMCO products are they still in touch with the parents? Does XLMCO offer parts to them? Do they have a professional system to interface with? Tank had something rudimentary but it did exist. I know this because I went to a dealer and was shown and explained how it worked and how it often did not work.
I'm sorry I would have infused them with capital and then changed the name to XLMCO USA. Set up a better system and with direct online sales and built up and refined the existing dealer network.
Now what? One step foreword two steps back.
The sale occurs when you or I buy a bike, it does not occur when it leaves the factory, it does not occur when it goes to a distributor or to a dealer. That’s a hand off…its a paper sale. Disconnecting from distribution and worse the final consumer is a destructive business practice.
Factories preoccupied with production volumes…that do not have their finger on the pulse of the market will become less and less efficient. The value of the product is connected, its actually a linear relationship.
You can say you get what you pay for, but you can also say good things are worth waiting for.
Wuxi is and has an intelligent educated population doesn’t it? It has a university that is working with the manufacturer? Does that University have a sister school in the US? Is that or would that help, what if it was located in the same city as a distributor? Would or could that create a synergistic exchange?
I am conjuring the ghost of Edward Deming and channeling him….all I need to do is work on my incomprehensible writing style and some other things, like the laundry.
The bikes are all basically the same...
how many version and how many would buy them?