Newbie in Shanghai !

Ok, an update, if it can help others who will go through the same process in the future.

The tests in the Wubao lu center is organized exactly like Wrangler described above for the Hongkou center. Passed the 1st part (slow slalom between poles) without problem.
I asked several times to the "instructor" if I could try the entire test today (the whole course) because I find it stupid and useless to have to wait 1 month for the 2nd part, and moreover, I want to buy the bike now ! ;-)) To no avail... I didn't give him any "gifts", I consider it not necessary if I can pass without trouble.

Several comments I'd like to share with you guys :
- the "instructor" maybe talked 1mn30sec totally to each one of us since we started the "training". He usually points to the bike keys when you arrive, you go fetch your bike and start training by looking at what the others are doing. During this time he stays in his warm office... Then yesterday he went out, explained in 1mn the whole course, told them to go train, then went back inside. So globally, if you're not sure about something, if you ride with knees wide open, if you make the biggest no-no on the bike, nobody will be there to point the right technique to you...
- I dared to ask him (yeah I know, how impolite and silly of me...) if they ever do some lessons outside, in the streets, he looked at me with eyes wide open and yelled "you're joking ?? It's very dangerous in the streets !"..... Yeah, I know, that was my point, yeah.... Like you're supposedly there to teach us how to survive out there, yeah... Definitely, we do not share the same logic. ;-))
- It has to be noted that while there's no training on the streets, the other newbies on the bikes take care of that for you... There's only one course, one way, but still you have to expect having guys cutting you off, taking the course on the opposite way (!!), stopping to answer the mobile phones in the middle of the poles, etc. :-))
It dawned on me once again that they never receive any training or explanation on how to share the road, so that's why they behave like they do in the streets : not only because it's a "me first !" attitude, but also because they are not taught anything about the whole concept of sharing the road...
- As I wrote before, the whole "training" is done on bikes with "automatic" clutch, meaning you can change gears with your left foot as usual, but no clutch lever on the handle bar. So it means you cannot stall when stopping the bike. So what's the point of having an exercice to stop & start uphill, for f..k sake ?? You just stop, hold the rear brake and throttle your way uphill... What's the difficulty there ?

So a bit of advice for everybody who's going to go through the same process in the future (and for myself) : having the C1E driving licence does not prepare you to ride a motorbike on the streets, to cop with the unexpected or the emergencies, it's up to you to find an empty parking place or any large place to exercize by yourself :
- to know your bike and its handling perfectly (exercices with small cones for example)
- to practice emergency brakings with rear and front brakes
- practice all the up and down shifts
- etc.

Maybe the very experienced members of this site could add all their advices, hints in order to help the newbies like myself : what other things should we do to perfect the "basic training" ?

Too funny Fred. Exactly my experience and thoughts. So stupid why we can't take both tests in one day. Yeah and the people cutting you off - totally annoying. Hey Fred if you find an empty place around central puxi let me know. I would love a place to practice.

P.S. I hated having to wait for a long time just to take the test.

I might have found it, but not sure if it will stay as it is right now for long (you know how it is in Shanghai, you wake up one morning to buy your milk at the local Lianhua, and it's a pet shop now...).
The place is quite hard to find because it's behind walls : do you know the Soho office building at the corner of Tongren lu and Nanyang lu ? When you're on Tongren lu, instead of turning towards Nanyang lu in direction of the Big bamboo, you turn in the small lane to go at the base of the Soho building, and you continue several meters on the left side : you'll find an empty and quite large parking area that connects to Changde lu. It is usually empty, but be careful : there are several trenches 20cm deep in this parking place, at least they were here 2 weeks ago. ;-))

I plan to go there when I get the bike, I'll let you know when. Tell me if you go to that place, and if it's still "available" for us. ;-))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred

Ok, an update, if it can help others who will go through the same process in the future.

The tests in the Wubao lu center is organized exactly like Wrangler described above for the Hongkou center. Passed the 1st part (slow slalom between poles) without problem.
I asked several times to the "instructor" if I could try the entire test today (the whole course) because I find it stupid and useless to have to wait 1 month for the 2nd part, and moreover, I want to buy the bike now ! ;-)) To no avail... I didn't give him any "gifts", I consider it not necessary if I can pass without trouble.

Several comments I'd like to share with you guys :
- the "instructor" maybe talked 1mn30sec totally to each one of us since we started the "training". He usually points to the bike keys when you arrive, you go fetch your bike and start training by looking at what the others are doing. During this time he stays in his warm office... Then yesterday he went out, explained in 1mn the whole course, told them to go train, then went back inside. So globally, if you're not sure about something, if you ride with knees wide open, if you make the biggest no-no on the bike, nobody will be there to point the right technique to you...
- I dared to ask him (yeah I know, how impolite and silly of me...) if they ever do some lessons outside, in the streets, he looked at me with eyes wide open and yelled "you're joking ?? It's very dangerous in the streets !"..... Yeah, I know, that was my point, yeah.... Like you're supposedly there to teach us how to survive out there, yeah... Definitely, we do not share the same logic. ;-))
- It has to be noted that while there's no training on the streets, the other newbies on the bikes take care of that for you... There's only one course, one way, but still you have to expect having guys cutting you off, taking the course on the opposite way (!!), stopping to answer the mobile phones in the middle of the poles, etc. :-))
It dawned on me once again that they never receive any training or explanation on how to share the road, so that's why they behave like they do in the streets : not only because it's a "me first !" attitude, but also because they are not taught anything about the whole concept of sharing the road...
- As I wrote before, the whole "training" is done on bikes with "automatic" clutch, meaning you can change gears with your left foot as usual, but no clutch lever on the handle bar. So it means you cannot stall when stopping the bike. So what's the point of having an exercice to stop & start uphill, for f..k sake ?? You just stop, hold the rear brake and throttle your way uphill... What's the difficulty there ?


Maybe the very experienced members of this site could add all their advices, hints in order to help the newbies like myself : what other things should we do to perfect the "basic training" ?

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A Very nice writeup:thumbsup::thumbsup: Learning to ride is not easy, and learning in China on your own is alot harder. Keep it up, you're already a hero.


One rule I practiced alot was this: in emergency situations you have two choices, do not mix them up. 1) Brake hard, but keep the bike UPRIGHT, AND STRAIGHT. 2) Swerve, depending on how your bike handles and what speed you're going, you could apply some brake force, but in an emergency, you will tend to over brake. So I train not to use the brake if I'm swerving. If your wheel stops and it's not upright, gravity wins, and then you hear a plomp sound! If you think about it, this can be rephrased to a more generic rule: Don't panic and do the right thing. Just don't panic. This also somewhat overlaps with target fixating.

Another rule: if you find your rear tire sliding out, don't panic, you can correct with a combination of steering and throttle. This can happen if you manage to lock your tires, braking hard. If you don't notice this immediately on, you could either high-side or low-side. Or if you know what you're doing, and keep it up, it's called drifting.:gun_bandana:

A China specific rule. If you intend to get anywhere in one piece, and still keep your nerves wired think like this: we laowai's are stupid, we don't know how to drive. It's the Chinese that know the rules, and we have to learn their ways. You have to learn how to read the traffic here. They are the majority, it's much easier accept their ways, instead of wining about it, even if it's only in your head. I still get the occasional scare once in a while, but generally I'm very comfortable riding in China. The objective is to ride, and enjoy my ride, not to educate 1.6 billion Chinese.

I remember when I first started. I also could not join an MSF course, had to learn on my own, reading and watching youtube vids of MSF and other training sessions, also typical crashes and discussion on why's and what's. Not to sound like an old sod, that was just 5 years ago, ~August 2006. I bought a 1992 Cruiser, VLX 400. When the man handed over the key, I asked him to ride the bike home for me.:eekers::eekers: He wanted to give me back the money. "I don't want to read about you in the obituaries.":deal::deal:

Since then, I can count total of three years riding, on two bikes. I've crashed two times on my only long trip (Kunming-Chengdu-Kunming) but I was able to quickly pick up the bike an continue, no damage to the bike or me. Both times I was tired, wet, sick with a fever and in a hurry. I am no guru, you should wait for more experienced riders to chime in.

For those who took the MSF course, could you help putting up a list of do's and don't's for us poor newbs.. I'm a very confident driver within my limits, but because I didn't have any sort of formal training, I don't know the rules by heart. Maybe I have many bad habits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slabo

It's the Chinese that know the rules, and we have to learn their ways.

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This is very true, driving here is entirely different from driving in North America and it's important to realize that the Chinese drivers are obeying the Chinese rules (or utter lack of rules). I spent a year riding in China and then took the BC safety council course to get my Canadian license. 20 years of driving habits (cars) ruined after 10 months of living in China :lol8: . My Canadian instructors pointed out my tendency to slow down when approaching intersections and my slow starts from intersections, telling me this was annoying for the traffic behind me. I explained that these were survival techniques I picked up in Shanghai, and then spent 10 minutes describing the typical scene at a Chinese 4 way stop, much to their amusement.

One more very important thing you need to remember as you transition from the learner scooters to motorcycles, especially with a 250, countersteering!

COUNTERSTEERING - I agree it is essential to understand and really easy once you DO it, you don't need to understand it, but if you want to try to this video shows it well: http://obairlann.net/reaper/motorcyc...rsteering.html

Fred, if you want we can take this stuff from your thread? Let us know. Might be an idea as Slabo suggests to have a riding skills and 'tips n tricks' thread somewhere, what do y'all think?

I would add that for countersteering successfully, it is about the pushing of the bars, not pulling, and always looking where you want to go, not just in front and not consciously steering. It comes quickly with practise round marked out bends in a car-park or similar, second gear, 20kph or thereabouts is probably safest as you need some speed for the physics to work but is slow enough if you make mistakes that you can usually correct, and as it is not a real bend with walls or drops either side you can miss the curve without harm while you practise! It varies in feel from bike type to type and is easier with a road bikes frame geometry - but you soon become used to it on a dirt set-up as well.

Hey Fred, thanks for the tip. I plan to check it out this holiday. Should be pretty dead. So are you confirmed on getting the 125? I'd recommend getting a 250 if your budget allows as you might just outgrow the 125 fairly soon!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred

I might have found it, but not sure if it will stay as it is right now for long (you know how it is in Shanghai, you wake up one morning to buy your milk at the local Lianhua, and it's a pet shop now...).
The place is quite hard to find because it's behind walls : do you know the Soho office building at the corner of Tongren lu and Nanyang lu ? When you're on Tongren lu, instead of turning towards Nanyang lu in direction of the Big bamboo, you turn in the small lane to go at the base of the Soho building, and you continue several meters on the left side : you'll find an empty and quite large parking area that connects to Changde lu. It is usually empty, but be careful : there are several trenches 20cm deep in this parking place, at least they were here 2 weeks ago. ;-))

I plan to go there when I get the bike, I'll let you know when. Tell me if you go to that place, and if it's still "available" for us. ;-))

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by slabo

A China specific rule. If you intend to get anywhere in one piece, and still keep your nerves wired think like this: we laowai's are stupid, we don't know how to drive. It's the Chinese that know the rules, and we have to learn their ways. You have to learn how to read the traffic here. They are the majority, it's much easier accept their ways, instead of wining about it, even if it's only in your head. I still get the occasional scare once in a while, but generally I'm very comfortable riding in China. The objective is to ride, and enjoy my ride, not to educate 1.6 billion Chinese.

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This is a great point. When I first got to China I almost couldn't take it. But one thing I have noticed about shanghai traffic is there is rhythm, and there is flow. Most importantly, drive slow. Big accidents mostly happen when something sudden happens (cab doors fling open, kid runs out on street, military police car cuts in front of everyone). Rhythm, flow, and slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jape

COUNTERSTEERING - I agree it is essential to understand and really easy once you DO it, you don't need to understand it, but if you want to try to this video shows it well: http://obairlann.net/reaper/motorcyc...rsteering.html

Fred, if you want we can take this stuff from your thread? Let us know. Might be an idea as Slabo suggests to have a riding skills and 'tips n tricks' thread somewhere, what do y'all think?

I would add that for countersteering successfully, it is about the pushing of the bars, not pulling, and always looking where you want to go, not just in front and not consciously steering. It comes quickly with practise round marked out bends in a car-park or similar, second gear, 20kph or thereabouts is probably safest as you need some speed for the physics to work but is slow enough if you make mistakes that you can usually correct, and as it is not a real bend with walls or drops either side you can miss the curve without harm while you practise! It varies in feel from bike type to type and is easier with a road bikes frame geometry - but you soon become used to it on a dirt set-up as well.

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Dear Jape,

Thanks for raising the notion of countersteering. Though this technique is essential to maneuvering a motorcycle (or any gyroscopically balanced vehicle like a bicycle or scooter), the term countersteering is not always used.

In the Motorcycle Safety Foundation training in the US, countersteering is handled by instructing the new rider to "press the bar" in the direction of the desired turn. In other words, if you want to turn left, you press on the left bar. It's counterintuitive at first, since pressing the bar forward makes it turn not to the left but to the right, but as you press on that left bar, and the bike indeed starts to turn right, gravity and centrifugal force pull your body in the opposite direction, i.e., left, commencing the lean that will allow you to execute the desired left turn.

The MSF Motorcycle Operator's Manual covers this from Page 11. The manual is a great resource, and it's available online in its entirety free of charge.

Here's a section on countersteering from wikipedia:

Quote:

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Countersteering

According to the Hurt Report, the path between straight-line motion and free equilibrium turn requires an initial steering motion opposite that of the steady turn. In accidents, most riders would over brake and skid the rear wheel, and under brake the front when greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.[9] Because of this, the Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches countersteering to all students in all of its schools, as do all motorcycle racing schools. Countersteering is included in the US State motorcycle operator manuals and tests, such as Washington,[25] New Jersey,[26] California,[27] and Missouri.[28] These rider's manuals typically simplify countersteering using some version of the standard verbiage "PRESS — To turn, the motorcycle must lean. To lean the motorcycle, press on the handgrip in the direction of the turn. Press left — lean left — go left. Press right — lean right — go right. Higher speeds and/or tighter turns require the motorcycle to lean more." This text, and often the entire manual, is copied verbatim from the manual published by the MSF.[29]

Confusion results from the shortness of the initial countersteering input required to get the bike to lean, which is only 0.5 seconds in average curves. Gentle turns might require only 0.125 seconds, while sharp turns might require 1.0 seconds of countersteering at corner entry.[30]

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I agree it would be great to capture this kind of learner's information in a separate thread, and make it a sticky.

cheers

Credit goes to Nuhaus, I think it is important so I just expanded on it as usual ;-)

Hey all, back from CNY holiday in wonderful Yunnan and less than wonderful Chengdu ! Well, I'm maybe not very fair on Chengdu, but got run over on the very 1st day there by a grand pa on a electric bike who considered the red light was not for him, have bruises and small cuts on both legs, still picked up the uninjured grandpa and his groceries (I'm a gentleman... ;-)) ), got sick there, then spent my days dodging the crazy taxi drivers there, crazier than Shanghai... I'll admit that being stomach sick and the thought that the holiday were coming to a stop didn't help my mood and the whole experience in Chengdu...

Anyway, Xin nian kuai le to all !
And thanks for all the comments.

Jape, of course you can take anything from this thread in order to make a new thread where noobs like me can find quickly the right info.
Wrangler, I'm very tempted by a 250 (especially the Yamaha YBR 250, yummmi...), butI made a deal with the GF that I'll stick to the 150cc in China, nothing faster, before upgrading later when we make our next move in Canada. She knows me well, and I think she's right on this one.

About the traffic in China, I'm not worried too much. I've been living in Shanghai for 8 years now, and riding my bicycle for 5 years here. I am totally incapable of riding slowly the bicycle, I'm always going quite fast (around 25-30 km/h) so I know quite a bit about the everyday dangers here. At those speeds, the "countersteering" technique even works on bicycles, even if I'll admit : of course it's very different than a much heavier motorbike.

Thanks to all again for sharing your insights !

Update !

Passed the final test on the bike this morning, yeah !!
Nearly failed, the bike sliding off the rails on the 1st attempt with the morning frost, nailed the 2nd and last try. 1/3 of the candidates this morning failed though...

Will pick up the licence at the same center in 2 weeks, and the bike on the same day ! I'll discuss the bike later when I get to know her (yes, it's a "her" ;-)) ) maybe in another thread, to help people making their choices.

I found on a website some advices and training methods by a french motorcycle instructor, will practice with those at the beginning. If people are interested, I can translate them here in English, they are quite detailed and really teach you the balance and emergency actions to become 2nd nature.

Cheers and thanks to all of you for the encouragements and advices !

Fred

Congratulations Fred, the hard work paid off. Good luck with getting a m'bike and I wish you safe and pleasurable riding.

Congrats indeed, Fred. Timing is pretty good, as I can feel the spring thaw coming.

cheers

Congrats Fred! Hope to see you on the road soon!

Well done mister fred! That's great it all worked out for you. My hat goes off to you for getting your license the proper way!

Thanks guys !

It will be nice to be completely legal when riding and not to worry about this. ;-))

I'll say it now, it's honestly quite easy to get the licence. Sure it's annoying with all the different procedures, and the need to speak Chinese at least a little, but the exams (theory and on the bike) are not hard compared to our home countries.
I'll be happy to help any new members going through the process in the future.

Cheers,

Fred

I'm not sure how much this may have been covered already, but here goes.

In particular I feel like negotiation of a grade is important, but also slow maneuvering in general. I think it is important to know that if you are turning at a slow speed your clutch/break action is like another form of balance. As an example lets say your turning right and your bike starts leaning INTO the turn you can clutch out and the slight acceleration will push the bike outward and stabilize you. In the same right turn, if you apply a little brake the bike will be pushed into the corner, further right. It works with both front and rear break but at SLOW speeds I always work the rear breaks, as I'm usually focusing my right hand on the throttle.

Another technique which is not too nice for your clutch or brakes but really does help is to ride both your clutch and your rear break. I know, I know, how cruel but what I'm talking about is not using much of either but enough to keep the bike from going to slow OR too fast. I will usually do this when I'm wanting to maintain a speed of about 2mph or trying to get around or over some obstacles, ether uneven grades or actual barriers.

Congrats Fred...
...and thanks for the advice. You've been diamond. Respect!

Yeaaaaaah finally !!
Got the bike yesterday, with again a whole lotta drama... Short story : they still didn't have the plates, told me to come back on Monday, I said no way.
Pushed one of them on the bike (without plates), went to the Hami lu police station (where I passed the physical, close to the CJ750 sidecars shop) and we did the whole process in 3 hours to register everything and to get the plates. Incredibly "mafan", but it's done now !

Everything is under my name (all the documents, bikes & plates registration), I chose the plate number, and the bike is running flawlessly, handles like a bicycle, I finally can ride after all those months of paperwork, exams and wait !

I'm really really glad I did all that, glad I'm 100% legal, now I just have to try to stall less when the light turns green ! ;-))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred

Yeaaaaaah finally !!
Got the bike yesterday, with again a whole lotta drama... Short story : they still didn't have the plates, told me to come back on Monday, I said no way.
Pushed one of them on the bike (without plates), went to the Hami lu police station (where I passed the physical, close to the CJ750 sidecars shop) and we did the whole process in 3 hours to register everything and to get the plates. Incredibly "mafan", but it's done now !

Everything is under my name (all the documents, bikes & plates registration), I chose the plate number, and the bike is running flawlessly, handles like a bicycle, I finally can ride after all those months of paperwork, exams and wait !

I'm really really glad I did all that, glad I'm 100% legal, now I just have to try to stall less when the light turns green ! ;-))

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Holy shit, Fred, you won the brass ring!

Per 5000-year-old traditions of the ancient order of Shanghai motozens, first round is on you at our next (No-)Bike Night!

I see blue sky today. Where are you planning to ride????

Congrats, and ride safe!

Well done, sincerely. Worth the effort. Now take it easy! The worst time for danger is only the first two years while you learn, then it is fine for about a week until you get complacent and its dangerous again. In other words, you only get to enjoy by surviving but you cannot afford to get complacent. You don't seem like the type to do that though. the trick about real fun on a bike is that good, even great times do come to you, open roads, cool curves, great weather and companions. Between those times you ride safe and survive and wait. You got the Sundiro Honda wasn't it? Come on mate, pics are mandatory at this point.

Congrats fred, another MCMer successfully going legal! We're all delighted for you!

Hey, the pressure from the audience is too much, I give up, here's the pic of the bike just as I arrived home, pretty isn't it ?



Attachment 3379









Naaah, just pulling your legs, a man can dream, right ?

Here is the real one (yeah I know the protective plastic are still on the saddle, I removed them now of course...) :
Attachment 3380

Attachment 3381


Could not ride too much yesterday as I had other obligations to fulfill, but managed a 1h30 ride, going through the gears, getting a feel for the bike. I admit without any shame that I'm a total beginner, so I was rather pleased with myself not to stall once during all this ride and to get a feel for all the process of upshifting and downshifting, to be always in the right gear, plus feeling the rear drum brake, which is quite nice and predictable, not like the on/off switch of the rear brake of the cub at the driving center... I always try to be very kind with the vehicle I'm on, and I feel that my bike and I are getting along quite well for the moment ! ;-))

I also discover one rather stupid problem.... I cannot get my brand new riding boot fully under the gear selector, because the boot's too "big or high", which is inconvenient to say the least... I can only upshift with the very tip of the boot, and I already scrapped the leather doing like this. I don't have any problem with running shoes of course, but that's not very safe...
Didn't have time to really check, but is there a way to raise a bit the gear selector so I could put my boot under, without have to hyper-extend my foot ?

Fantastic looking bike, and nice yellow plate there to offset the black!

Now that you've given her a good shaking, take ZMC888's advice and retighten every bolt on the bike, preferably to spec with a torque wrench. Ninety minutes should be plenty of time to shake a bunch loose -- even (especially) the engine mounting bolts!

Should be plenty of options for different shift levers. Time for a trip to scootertown (Jiaoji Lu)!

Awesome!
cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred

Didn't have time to really check, but is there a way to raise a bit the gear selector so I could put my boot under, without have to hyper-extend my foot ?

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This is a really easy adjustment (as in I did it, and my mechanical knowledge is next to nil). You could do it yourself but I would just take it back to the shop and show them what you need. Careful riding in the rain (if you are today), and avoid the damn super slick paint on the roads.

So that's the 150 Honda Shadow right? Should be excellent for reliability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nuhaus

So that's the 150 Honda Shadow right? Should be excellent for reliability.

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Dear Fred,

My mistake! Didn't mean to stir anxiety about loose bolts. I was thinking this was the Regal Raptor. The Sundiro Honda should be tight as a drum.

and, yes, do watch out for the white street paint. I was just out on my bicycle and it's like ice.

cheers!

Yes, that's the Honda-Sundiro SDH 150-16 Shadow, purring like a kitten, handling like a bicycle.

My mechanical knowledge is not completely nil, but quite limited I would say, that's why I chose this bike, to avoid having to repair it on the road-side everytime I ride it...

Fred, it is a 30 second job. The gear shift lever should be on a splined shaft and held on by one clamping bolt. It should be very easy for you to loosen that bolt, to slide the lever off the shaft toward you and raise it up by replacing it at a higher angle. (turned further round the shaft toward you). This will become obvious if you look closely. The only thing you should look out for is if the lever is raised too high and comes into contact with the engine casing when you flick it upwards with your toe. This would be very unlikely but is a check you can do stationary.

Very nice! Did the dealer have 250cc's or above?