petrol run or blue plate run ?

I have no moral high ground here, a very chequered past (and present) with incidents that were not always legal and other 'government sanctioned' incidents I since learnt to regret. I also believe in the right of the individual to act as they see fit, including their own understanding or interpretation of laws and regulations concerning their own life and path through it. That is because i believe in personal responsibility and the consequence of actions also.

When there is a local industry, indigenous and thriving, in making plates for the purpose of getting petrol then you are simply participating in and being allowed into the variant of the culture you live amongst that also accepts that legality can be interpreted for the good of the individual as weighed up against the whole (as would be demonstrated by blind obedience). A common dynamic and theme, often used to justify what is the beginning of anarchic revolution and usually a position taken without much justification purely for personal reward and ease.

To my mind the sole just and acceptable reasoning for purchasing illegal plates, which is fraud against a regime that has accepted and tolerates you as a foreign body within it, is the measure by which you feel a genuine part of that society. Outside of that it is just selfishness. It is also anarchistic and revolutionary on a global scale, the consequences of which are weighed on your soul, not your wallet. That does not make it just or acceptable, you are then consciously starting to live outside of social constraints and regimen. That is perhaps seen by you as the path to freedom and enlightenment, it may be so - but at the risk of being branded terrorist or revolutionary. These are NOT small matters however they may seem from your personal, small, perspective.

Freedom to move around, travel, do as you will? Won by the blood of many over all the generations of man, including the blood of innocents. It is a constant pattern in human behaviour, an equation. The blue plate is a statement that will cost you more than a few yuan. It is also deliberate, subversive and foolish for a foreigner not intelligent enough to think it through.

That last post is pretty deep man. I'm still trying to take it all in. I just came on here for a bit of local motorbike news and banter.

Now i'm not writing here to have a dig or speak out of turn, as Jape you're obviously a intelligent and thoughtful guy. But what i took from your post, is that i've been labelled a foolish foreigner, who has a small perspective, and all this chat about generations of blood just seems a bit hard to swallow and misplaced on a motorbike forum.

I only wanted to get back on the road. I'm fully aware of the risks involved with the fake plates, and i've thought about the consequences, but we are talking about China here man. Shanghai is a city where you can pay 50rmb to be released by the traffic cops without warning (this has happened on two occassions), a city where you can buy (fake) toxic cigarrettes outside bars, bootleg dvd's and luxury items are available for peanuts everywhere. This is happening whether we like it or not. I love China, and i'm not criticising at all, i simply feel i'm just trying to get by like everybody else is here, i'm surrounded by this system so i'm just playing the game, and i like to think that by doing so i'm not contributing to society's downfall. All of these things were happening long before i arrived, and think they're just part of the fabric of society. If that's wrong them i must be and if that makes me a narrow minded person then i guess i still have a lot to learn.

China's great for many reasons, and after 4 years of living here i conclude that if you go by your own business without hurting anybody else or causing any civil unrest you'll be fine to get by as you please. Just always bear in mind that the worst case scenario's here are severe.
10 years working a mine in Sichuan province or a bullet in the neck is always a great motivation to keep your shit in line.

Ofcourse I am only using it for for fuel. I get your point euphonius, I am actually driving my bike with a helmet, so hopefully it save me from some pain. But I know how the law works, and that I have to pay a lot for the damage to the other person. But I accept the risk. I don't believe they are really going to check out my plates. If I tell them my papers are at home, because they don't have a computer in the car to check out those plates like they have in the western countries.

"To my mind the sole just and acceptable reasoning for purchasing illegal plates, which is fraud against a regime that has accepted and tolerates you as a foreign body within it, is the measure by which you feel a genuine part of that society. Outside of that it is just selfishness."

You defended what you didn't have to defend, seems to me you qualify yourself as quoted.

And btw, a forum is just that, a forum - motorcycles may be the cause why come here, but that is not the end of it. Why should it be superficial? You will fit in fine by answering a syou now have! You can also ignore, respond angrily, add reasoned argument or leave as you choose.

You can debate, argue, even curse and swear a bit on this forum, it is reasonably mature and I am not sole moderator or arbiter so if you have real concerns you can have them dealt with. Some here have chatted up female robots, some have even shown compassion and feeling and been concerned for the whereabouts of missing members. It is an evolving social communication method, and if I have my way, will always become more than a simple 'twit' on twitter or message on farcebook. If you want a mindless and purely technical website, start one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dewsnap

That last post is pretty deep man. I'm still trying to take it all in. I just came on here for a bit of local motorbike news and banter.

Now i'm not writing here to have a dig or speak out of turn, as Jape you're obviously a intelligent and thoughtful guy. But what i took from your post, is that i've been labelled a foolish foreigner, who has a small perspective, and all this chat about generations of blood just seems a bit hard to swallow and misplaced on a motorbike forum.

I only wanted to get back on the road. I'm fully aware of the risks involved with the fake plates, and i've thought about the consequences, but we are talking about China here man. Shanghai is a city where you can pay 50rmb to be released by the traffic cops without warning (this has happened on two occassions), a city where you can buy (fake) toxic cigarrettes outside bars, bootleg dvd's and luxury items are available for peanuts everywhere. This is happening whether we like it or not. I love China, and i'm not criticising at all, i simply feel i'm just trying to get by like everybody else is here, i'm surrounded by this system so i'm just playing the game, and i like to think that by doing so i'm not contributing to society's downfall. All of these things were happening long before i arrived, and think they're just part of the fabric of society. If that's wrong them i must be and if that makes me a narrow minded person then i guess i still have a lot to learn.

China's great for many reasons, and after 4 years of living here i conclude that if you go by your own business without hurting anybody else or causing any civil unrest you'll be fine to get by as you please. Just always bear in mind that the worst case scenario's here are severe.
10 years working a mine in Sichuan province or a bullet in the neck is always a great motivation to keep your shit in line.

---

I get your point mate. I'm actually pretty new to the whole concept of chatting in forums, so maybe i'm a little over-sensitive. Ha.
I only came on here to get information about plates and licensing but i've since found the site to be a little more than that. People seem to be going out of their way to share info and are genuinely looking out for others, some of the links regarding the licensing process here in China have been outstanding. I've found it's really difficult to get reliable info about all things bike here so i've been hugely impressed with this site.
I certainly don't want any beef with proper memebers.
Take it easy dude.
Peace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dewsnap

i simply feel i'm just trying to get by like everybody else is here, i'm surrounded by this system so i'm just playing the game, and i like to think that by doing so i'm not contributing to society's downfall.

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Very well stated... :thumbsup:

The worst nightmare I ever had was being a motorcyclist in Shanghai... woke up screaming from that one. :lol8:

Cheers!
ChinaV

Haha I actually kinda like it driving around in the City.. Lot of friends from outside of China tell me are u crazy! The traffic in Shanghai is madness..

But ontopic: there are two options now: 46.000RMB for a blue license plate or a hunderd times less, it's up to u!

Actually, to get all technical, 46,000 will get you a yellow plate, not a blue one. And (fingers and toes crossed here) it's a transferrable asset, used by the government to limit numbers. It is NOT a registration fee. I paid 42k for mine, and it was no easy thing to pull that trigger. But due to scarcity or whatever, it's maybe 46k now. Some have said closer to 50k.

Weird to think in these terms, but it's entirely possible I'll MAKE money off my yellow plates. Weirder still is the thought that as the bike depreciates, the plates appreciate. So over time the plates pay for the bike. Long live socialism with Chinese characteristics!! :clap:

Of course, I'm not banking on any of that.

Just sayin'...

I'm not sure if that is entirelt true, because as I know the plates on cars don't get a higher value because officially u can't resell your plates right? I mean u calculate the costs of the plates when selling your bike or car but I don't see why the plate should get up in value

Motorcycle plates sell freely on the open market, and in recent memory there have been no new batches of motorcycle plates issued by the authorities. A motorcycle plate can be transferred to a car, thus reducing by one the pool of tradable motorcycle plates in circulation. A car plate CAN be freely resold once in circulation, just not to a motorcyclist. The city issues a limited number of new car plates every month, at auction. For this reason, the price of a motorcycle plate has generally tracked the current auction price of new car plates being issued every monty by the authorities. Given that the number is actually flat or decreasing, eventually the value of a motorcycle plate could command a premium over a car plate, due to increasing scarcity.

I've not checked lately, but I believe Shanghai car plates are in the north 40s. There was a brief scare in November, when the price all but collapsed, but that apparently was a blip on the screen. In December and January they were right back up to old levels or higher. We all had little mycardial infarctions that month.

cheers
jkp

One more word on this: I think of the plate and the bike as completely separate values. Hypothesizing on two worst-case eventualities (knock wood), if the bike is stolen I can get a replacement plate for nominal cost and put it on a new bike, or sell it; and if my bike is totaled, I can put the (mangled) plate on a new bike, or sell it. The value of the plate remains intact regardless of what happens to the bike. If I get sick of Shanghai and move to Zhongdian, I can sell the plate in Shanghai, then take my bike to Shangrila and get new plates there. In each scenario, the plate sells at the market rate -- currently in the north 40s.

Not trying to talk anyone into it or out of it. I'm just disputing the validity of the argument comparing 40K rmb or more to a couple hundred for a fake plate. It's apples and oranges, and there are actually compelling reasons to buy an apple if you can finance it. (Think Different! It Just Works!) No guarantees the policy won't change, but it's not the equivalent of pissing cash down the drain.

cheers

This isn't aimed at anyone, just a general comment.

When it comes to my rants or raves, I get more commendations privately than bricks chucked at me. Most just ignore them!:lol8: And I rarely intend such to be aimed at an individual without saying so clearly, I just respond to my feelings about the developing trend of posts.

There is a fine line between passing on information on this site, between stating what you do or want to do, and being seen to support or even to suggest illegal or fraudulent practise.

All opinions are those of individuals and respected (or not) as such, however the forum as a whole, (and we are all members and participants and thus responsible) can only survive if it is seen NOT to support illegality. Surely, with a bit of thought, anyone would understand that? It is far too valuable a resource to many around the world, to be risked for the sake of a bit of smart-arse boasting of how to get round a restriction In Shanghai. Most of us understand that there are always ways around prohibition in any country, anywhere.

There is in fact no problem with posting openly what you do, illegal or otherwise and no problem with posting very diverse opinions and all viewpoints being expressed. But someone has to at least express a caution, a warning or what may even seem to be censorship. Just occasionally and depending on the circumstances and in itself open to judgement by peers.

As I said, it is a fine line and my personal interpretation of that line may be in error. All very well foreigners 'playing the game' in China. I would do the same of course. But a lot of information can and should be passed on privately when and if you achieve trust with another member, not boasted about. OK? All understood and settled down now?

Back in the ol' Earthquake of aught eight, I done took the ol' WuLing microbus out with a jerry can. Mine was only 20l or something. I saw dudes pulling up to gas stations with what looked like 400l cans!

Get ye wunna deez as cans, drop a bunch and have petrol for half a year. Splits the costs ifn' ya havetuz but all that money for a piece of crap metal painted blue aint'z wurfit.

CC

As for the petrol situation, there was a post sometime ago that said the petrol ban for bikes was only within inner Shanghai -- the boundary being defined as the second ring road, or the S20.

To confirm whether this was true or not, I rode out a few km past that border on a major road. I attempted to get the bike filled, and it was a failure. They took a look at the (lack of) plates, asked for my registration, and politely apologized, saying they could not fill the bike because of a rule. I then asked if this rule extended beyond the outer ring road, and they said it is the same rule whether in downtown or the suburbs. I was told the traffic police made it up. Again they were nice and cordial about the whole thing, which took place in Chinese. No hard feelings felt, but also no fuel. I figured this was because I was still within Xuhui district -- considered primarily as a downtown district.

So I kept going further out, by now this was Minhang district, and easily got the fuel no problem.

The clue to whether or not the particular gas station enforces the rule has to do with a sign in Chinese near the pumps that says 'Forbidden to ...... fill gas' and two characters in the middle that I can't make out.

While the ring road is a guideline, I also think the distinction has more to do with downtown vs. suburban districts. In other words, you need to pick districts that are considered suburban ones, and you also need to be outside of the ring road. The following would work, based on this theory:

-- Minhang (outside the ring)
-- Songjiang
-- Qingpu
-- Baoshan
-- Jiading
-- Pudong or Nanhui (outside the ring)

Then again, I'll need to investigate more to see if those signs are present at the gas station or not, as that will test if the theory is really true. For the next attempt I'll try the 'TOTAL' gas station on Caobao Road near Qibao, first one as you go past the ring road. That's a 20 minute ride from my apartment in Xujiahui area -- not far.

As for getting the fake plates, it's an option worth trying to get the fuel downtown, but there's no real benefit in terms of the police letting you go if stopped. In fact, it is probably worse with the fake plates. Let's face it, to be on the safe side, you'll still be playing the same ol' cat and mouse game with fake plates, as if you had no plates.

The reason why the suburban districts are your best for fuel is because those districts are effectively the countryside where ordinary folk and farmers need the gas to make a living. Denying gas to them is not likely to happen. So make the most of it, go for a suburban run when your tank is 1/4 full, plan ahead, and you're fine.

Great post mate, thanks. This sort of common-sense, on-the-ground exploration beats thousands of words of conjecture and ranting.

If the police are really dogged determined to get rid of the scooters and bikes, then a large scale crackdown is the next logical thing to do after the no-fuel policy has had considerable time to work its effect, and they can see that people are still getting fuel and driving their bikes around (through a myriad of creative methods already mentioned here).

Typically the date is Jan 1st when they do a major crackdown, so it's very possible they could be holding out until next year. Governments would do that -- don't underestimate the time they are willing to wait it out, and employ long term 'seige tactics' like we're seeing with the fuel ban. It's worth keeping in mind that Shanghai has launched these kind of crackdowns before. In early 2007 they did a major scooter purge after the initial ban on gas scooters was introduced the previous year and people had some time to adapt to it. It was quite a serious crackdown that must have cost a lot of resources. They had police on every intersection, and they hauled scooters away by the truckload to the impound lot. This happened daily. After awhile, the crackdown petered out and things are back to normal. Surprisingly, the EXPO didn't cause a new crackdown in early 2010 but maybe it was because police resources were focued on event security.

In any event, there's nothing stopping Shanghai from repeating a 'purge' on scooters like in the past, despite how it's a huge waste of resources and wouldn't last long. In my opinion, they should really go after the cars and tackle traffic congestion. Anyways, we'll see what happens, and just keep on riding.

Yeah, thanks for that.
I'm guessing this is the sign that you mentioned...
Attachment 3302

I live in the Xinzhuang area of Minhang (outside the ring) and all the petrol stations around here definitely wont give petrol to non-plated bikes.
A few friends have reported better luck in Songjiang though.

I also agree with your crackdown theory. Most of my Chinese friends have said that all illegal scooters in Shanghai will be off the road by the end of the year. Then they're gonna start clamping down on the LPG scooters.
It's all talk obviously but i've already sold mine.

Thanks a lot for that picture, this is exactly what I saw. Alright, so it's clear now that they enforce the ban on a district-to-district level, and not about the ring road. The signs says 'Minhang PSB' so it's the entire district that we can scratch off the list. If anyone's up for the groundwork, how about going to other districts and reporting back if the signs are there or not. Songjiang would certainly be a better bet as that district has a border with other provinces (and so does Qingpu and Jiading), meaning it's way out in the countryside.

Strange, that sign that dewsnap posted reads 禁止助力车加油, which means "petrol sales to power assisted vehicles forbidden". Nothing about plates or no plates, nothing about motorcycles. And it uses this term 助力车 zhuliche which to my ear is imprecise -- literally "power-assisted vehicle". Any native Shanghainese speakers in our forum? The Mandarin word I know for scooter is 踏板车 tabanche, which means "foot platform vehicle", and I use this all the time in Mandarin.

Has there been a class of motorized scooters, perhaps originally petrol then later LPG, that fell into a gray area -- not quite fitting the definition of "motorcycle" and hence tolerated without plates? And now these are being squeezed off the streets through denial of petrol? I do see untold thousands of unplated petrol and LPG scoots blasting all over Shanghai, scooting past traffic cops and even checkpoints with impunity. Were these once legal, but now not?

Starting to feel like a semantic question. What's the precise definition of 助力车? TD_ref? Nostalgie?

I do have some cop friends I can ask....

By the way, welcome Steve_R. Who are you and where have you been lurking with all your expertise? Look forward to reading more of your posts.

cheers

Thanks, euphonius. I've been in Shanghai for 6 years off and on. Nowadays teaching math for the international program of a downtown high school. It's a great board here -- the best information I've seen on legalities and police, which is what I focus on. I ride a black Yamaha 125, used to be a humble scooter but upgraded. I've got lots of riding experience both downtown and the outskirts of Shanghai as I used to work for a school way out there past Qingpu. The best thing about riding is the freedom, and also the time savings. My riding career all started because a 3-hour convoluted transport journey to get downtown (one-way trip) was reduced to just over an hour with a bike.

Glad you finally came out of the, err, garage. I'm more of a weekend rider, as I don't need to ride to get to work (I walk down the hall from my bedroom to my study). Guys like you who ride daily are hardcore, and have so much to offer in terms of understanding the nuances and changes of the street. Please feel free to post early and often. I'll echo Jape's accolades. Great first post, filled with evidence-based knowledge.

We've got a nice group of Shanghai motozens (new coinage) and we've had one gathering in recent weeks. I'm keen to make this a regular thing, maybe once or twice a month as the weather improves at some outdoor place where we can park our steeds, shoot the sheet and nurture friendships. I'd be happy to have both Bike Nights with coffee or other non-adult beverages and (No-)Bike Nights with adult libations. Just really leery of mixing bikes with tipple.

cheers

I speaking with my tailor, a local last week. He said he lent his bike to a friend who got it confiscated. Basically the friend was riding around downtown and two police cops came up behind him. He and the other scooters around him got "herded" into a group of policemen awaiting him in the front. Basically nowhere to go. So he lost his unplated bike.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steve_R

As for the petrol situation, there was a post sometime ago that said the petrol ban for bikes was only within inner Shanghai -- the boundary being defined as the second ring road, or the S20.

To confirm whether this was true or not, I rode out a few km past that border on a major road. I attempted to get the bike filled, and it was a failure. They took a look at the (lack of) plates, asked for my registration, and politely apologized, saying they could not fill the bike because of a rule. I then asked if this rule extended beyond the outer ring road, and they said it is the same rule whether in downtown or the suburbs. I was told the traffic police made it up. Again they were nice and cordial about the whole thing, which took place in Chinese. No hard feelings felt, but also no fuel. I figured this was because I was still within Xuhui district -- considered primarily as a downtown district.

So I kept going further out, by now this was Minhang district, and easily got the fuel no problem.

The clue to whether or not the particular gas station enforces the rule has to do with a sign in Chinese near the pumps that says 'Forbidden to ...... fill gas' and two characters in the middle that I can't make out.

While the ring road is a guideline, I also think the distinction has more to do with downtown vs. suburban districts. In other words, you need to pick districts that are considered suburban ones, and you also need to be outside of the ring road. The following would work, based on this theory:

-- Minhang (outside the ring)
-- Songjiang
-- Qingpu
-- Baoshan
-- Jiading
-- Pudong or Nanhui (outside the ring)

Then again, I'll need to investigate more to see if those signs are present at the gas station or not, as that will test if the theory is really true. For the next attempt I'll try the 'TOTAL' gas station on Caobao Road near Qibao, first one as you go past the ring road. That's a 20 minute ride from my apartment in Xujiahui area -- not far.

As for getting the fake plates, it's an option worth trying to get the fuel downtown, but there's no real benefit in terms of the police letting you go if stopped. In fact, it is probably worse with the fake plates. Let's face it, to be on the safe side, you'll still be playing the same ol' cat and mouse game with fake plates, as if you had no plates.

The reason why the suburban districts are your best for fuel is because those districts are effectively the countryside where ordinary folk and farmers need the gas to make a living. Denying gas to them is not likely to happen. So make the most of it, go for a suburban run when your tank is 1/4 full, plan ahead, and you're fine.

---

Just to update people, I live in Songjiang and without Blue plate....NO PETROL.. will be trying outside of city for fuel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Falloffalot

Just to update people, I live in Songjiang and without Blue plate....NO PETROL.. will be trying outside of city for fuel.

---

I suppose outside the city means in another province. But who wants to go into Jiangsu or Zhejiang just for fuel, and then risk getting caught at the border checkpoints?!

This is worrisome news. I got checked for plates out in Qingpu the other week, and we're not talking the district center either. It was the first SINOPEC gas station on the Huqingping after crossing the provincial line. Since I've recently got fake plates installed, those passed the cursory check and I got the fuel.

Then again, the last fill-up was in the middle of town, right on Hutai Lu in the north part of the city. So it probably depends from gas station to station.

Best bet is to go to private gas stations (TOTAL or EASYJOY), where they will let you fill up if you agree to purchase goods at the convenience store. I got this information from the local Chinese papers and friends who have successfully used this tactic.

Yes, even if theres some ways to get petrol in black market its being a pain in the ass to drive lilke this, always worried and controlling the fuel level. I see different clients everyday in diferent parts of shanghai and by subway or taxi i spend to much time and much more money. Does anyone know any super Ebike seller, not that expensive and that runs more than 60 kilometers with one time charge?? Looking for it.. thanks

I bought a 'super-ebike' from the shop on xietu lu & damuqiao lu. (exact address is 斜土路1360号) Here's their taobao shop:

http://dianmozhijia.taobao.com/

The standard specs are usually 800W motor, 48V 20amp battery (4 cells). That'll get you up to 45/50khp and a range of about 40km. If you want longer range, get an extra 4 cells (around 800 rmb) added bringing it to 48V 40amps. It'll be heavier but will take you the distance.

It's not as much fun as a scooter or motorbike, but the peace of mind is really nice. Don't have to worry at intersections, do u turns when you see police or plan weird routes just to avoid certain intersections.

You can even ride it home drunk from the bar without risking your license or career. I'm not saying it's a good idea, i'm just saying...

Heyyy man, thanks so much, i will check there. I live in xietu lu, close to luban lu, so its very close for me. Didnt know they could add and extra battery and actually never stop in this store coz passing by, i never saw some a litlle bigger ebike, once im 1.88m and sometimes drive with my girl on the back... Anyway, looks like this extra battery can solve my problems, and i can keep my petrol one fueled up for special occcasions...

Thanks

Are these bikes that Felix introduced similar to the models you saw in Alibaba?

Anyway, please report back what you buy, and let us know how you get on.

cheers