250cc options in China.

So far I'm pretty happy with the Jialing fuel injection, as long as I don't get a bad batch of petrol and can keep the battery charged enough to drive the fuel circuit. Back in the fall I was all anxious about Jialing's release of a firmware upgrade for the Bosch electronic control module, but the bike is running OK so I've put it out of my mind for now. Maybe I'll ping Jialing this week to see what gives. Jialing apparently does not bootleg the firmware; rather, they pay Bosch for it -- assuming they decide it's in their customers' interest. I've probably said this before, but this was described to me as analogous to computer OS upgrades. Jialing could upgrade the JH600 to the EFI equivalent of Win7, but right now we are still running on XP or 3.1 or "Bob" (anyone remember Bob, back when Microsoft was trying to be "hip"? Yeah, right.) or some other earlier version.

On the other hand, every grease monkey squatting in every "repair shop" in China has some ability to fix a carburetor, which explains why plenty of people prefer that form of fuel application. Needless to say, the toughening of fuel standards here in China and everywhere will have huge implications for fuel systems, and probably give Bosch a couple more decades of profits.

cheers

Just wondering and OT, does the JH600 have an in-line fuel filter? Might be the cause of some of the 'bad fuel' problems if it is substandard or not present. What did Milton do in the end with all his problems? Did it work out?

I do not see a filter in the schematics, and I've never had the plastics fully off my bike to see the full fuel circuit! So I am assuming there is not an inline filter. If that's the case, then the injector itself is acting as a filter! Probably not a great idea.

I'll take this up with Jialing this week too.

cheers

Yes, I just happened to read an article on EFI against carburettor choices today in one of my dirtbike mags! It said that an often overlooked problem where EFI is blamed is in fact badly filtered fuel blocking injectors and I remembered Milton and other's posts on that topic. Given that cars and racing bikes have had EFI for a long while, it seems strange that 'bike EFI is still seen as problematic and such causes could explain a lot, especially with dirt bikes and in places with poor fuel.

As I said, I would prefer EFI if available, easier starting, no choke, no jets to play with, less exposure to water but as with all such electronic systems it needs to be 'right' else it is doubly frustrating if you cannot work on it.

EFI is hot cool technology promising to give better performance, less maintenance, and lower fuel consumption. It appears to be superior, and marketing speeches make it appear to be even more superior. In the end fact one remains: the bike works just good with a carburator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moilami

EFI is hot cool technology promising to give better performance, less maintenance, and lower fuel consumption. It appears to be superior, and marketing speeches make it appear to be even more superior. In the end fact one remains: the bike works just good with a carburator.

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No mate, that is just it, EFI gives better emissions control with less loss of power, better fuel consumption and usually a broader width of power band. Told you I have just been reading up on it! I can also say that since I fixed my car EFI system with araldite and duct tape, the fuel consumption is much worse and it won't run smoothly.

It will be easier to buy a software package to root and mod the bike EFI along with any exhaust mods etc. rather than play with jets by hit and miss methods or word of mouth. The time will come soon when you attach your Android phone to the bike and download an APP to rework the performance, then set it back to factory default with a flick of a switch when the cops pull you over and check your telemetry!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphonius

I do not see a filter in the schematics, and I've never had the plastics fully off my bike to see the full fuel circuit! So I am assuming there is not an inline filter. If that's the case, then the injector itself is acting as a filter! Probably not a great idea.

I'll take this up with Jialing this week too.

cheers

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Did you look in or near the fuel pump, that's a popular place to put the filter?

EFI gives better performance, but carbs transmit better throttle control to the rider.

It's going to take a lot of time for the Chinese MC industry to fix their bikes to run properly in a FI world. Glad I got my bikes before Feb 28. Would hate to be a new buyer this year that can't afford a JH600 or YBR250.

Cheers!
ChinaV

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Did you look in or near the fuel pump, that's a popular place to put the filter?

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Ah, yes, here it is -- something called 油气分离器材 or "oil separator", just below the throttle body and the air box. The oil separator itself has an exploded view, and inside there are both fine and coarse filter elements.

Would the fact that the filter body can be opened up mean that it's a serviceable part? That you'd pull it out and perhaps clean or replace the filter elements, rather than replacing the whole contraption?


Attachment 3316


Sorry for the newb questions!

cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jape

No mate, that is just it, EFI gives better emissions control with less loss of power, better fuel consumption and usually a broader width of power band. Told you I have just been reading up on it! I can also say that since I fixed my car EFI system with araldite and duct tape, the fuel consumption is much worse and it won't run smoothly.

It will be easier to buy a software package to root and mod the bike EFI along with any exhaust mods etc. rather than play with jets by hit and miss methods or word of mouth. The time will come soon when you attach your Android phone to the bike and download an APP to rework the performance, then set it back to factory default with a flick of a switch when the cops pull you over and check your telemetry!

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Well, but untill that happens I am happy with my carburator with a motto "there ain't nothing much what can break in fuel system" :lol8:

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm still a layman but just about grasping the differences between carbs and FI. So this chat really helps.

What i've gathered from your discussion is that any new technology, particulary FI systems on Chinese bikes, will probably be troublesome and unreliable for the first couple of years until it's been RnD'd properly?

I've seen carb's and they look relatively simple compared to the FI systems that have all the wires, but possbily mechanics in China have had less experience working on FI systems meaning troubleshooting and problem solving could be more difficult?

It's another point to consider for myself as a neewbie trying to find the right bike. The new Yingang at 17,000rmb is dangerously close to YBR250 at 23,000rmb, so i've got to ask myself is the 6000rmb difference going to be worth the peace of mind considering the Yingan is using new tech that is comparitively untested?

I only know what reading up lately has told me while I consider my own purchase options, but there are many millions of EFI bikes running with no problems and no-one who has one, apart from a few old fashioned souls, would do without them.

The latest I read in my monthly dirt bike magazine was that another couple of years is needed to be sure of the technology. I can't see why that would be when just about all cars have been fine with it for more than two decades, I am just reporting it. It may be to do with the hard use MX and similar bikes get or it may just be a myth because a few had problems or related issues such as the injector blockage due to poor fuel filtering systems. After reading the wikipedia entry I cannot imagine why it is so late into many bikes, probably just the costs.

Yingyan seem to have their act together so you never know, depends on where they sourced the EFI. If it was me, I would risk it in Aus because there are diagnosis tools, mapping tools and possible replacements with educated technicians. China? Seems not but I bet it catches up fast. As i keep saying, it is not stupidity or ignorance it is lack of access to tech gear and training. Once they get it, you see computer equipment appear as good as anywhere else, half price. Plenty of chinese hackers too. As I said before also, it is not so far away that you will be able to buy a diagnostic tool for EFI on Taobao, just not this month!

But China V is the expert and practical man for all this stuff so as he agrees with what I learnt yesterday in the latest magazine then go with that. You will only have one bike for a while, you want one you can work on or fix with a mate or guidance on here.

It's clearly emissions controls, both in Europe and here in China (US doesn't do sissy emissions controls), that are driving the trend toward fuel injection, so these manufacturers are having to get used to it. By and large, Chinese manufacturers are not market-driven, trying to win customers with better product, but this is starting to change, particularly among carmakers, now that companies like BYD are cracking the US and European markets not merely with decent quality at a low price but with a potentially game-changing combination of innovation, novelty AND low price.

I do believe that forums like MCM will gradually have a big impact on these Chinese motorcycle manufacturers, but I don't feel that this is happening yet. There's no evidence that any of them are monitoring what we, the passionate pioneers of Chinabikes, are thinking and saying. I'm not sure what will cause that to change, though each email that you, dewsnap, send to Yingang has the potential to prompt someone there to start tuning in.

But it'll be years before these China companies are able to rival the major international brands. These are mostly state-owned behemoths, and they don't change overnight -- if ever. It might require an upstart private manufacturer to catalyse this transition.

All that said, however, I'd not rule out that Yingang EFI 250 on principle alone. It could be a real breakthrough bike. Or it could be like the Qingqi that never arrives. A vaporbike.

cheers

Mr Jape, for the injection system YG sourcing, I recall months ago their project manager mentioned they have adopted from Ford (no more infor. was given, I wish i had more).

Before Euro3 emission related regulation was active on 1st of March, the FI technology had been used at some bikes for a year or two. Big name like YBR250, Honda 佳御 110cc scooter, Qianjiang EFI models reported low fuel consumption and reliable.

No doubt to YG decent 250 engine, who is sure YG will have a flawless FI system by May? If they could make sure every bike that leave the factory whose FI system can be further upgrade with ease, IMO, I would not hesitate to invest in better technology. (hmm....reminds me early days buying an OS 10.2 laptop for college, Android phone for enjoy GPS technology--very impressive kudos to American, the benefits I gain from outweigh their flaws).

Thanks very much for that Mr td-ref, we need as much of this kind of report as we can get. How is your Suzuki going?

Chonqing Technology of which Yingang is a part may have the ability to sort the EFI out if working with Ford, do you think? Maybe they have done it already, it takes a while to get production lines setup so they would be buying the controllers and programming them now.

Qianjiang say they are the biggest group in China so may be ahead of that game.
Going to be an interesting year coming up!

As you say, if it is possible to upgrade then worth the risk for a good 250cc. Everyone, including me, has been complaining the 200cc is just too slow!

Yingang like all the others have known for a long time that these stricter emissions controls were coming, particularly in the case of Europe. Surely they are not total strangers to EFI. I doubt a carbureted bike could be easily retrofitted with electronic fuel injection, but for a manufacturer to make the switch should not be a huge challenge. Getting the firmware and software right is another matter, but the EFI provider should be very good at helping the manufacturer tweak performance. The question is whether the bike makers will care enough to do so. This is the problem we face now with Jialing, which has been talking about issuing a firmware update for a year now, but apparently has not yet worked out the details with Bosch.

If all makers are having to switch to EFI to meet the stricter emissions and fuel-efficiency requirements, this should spur competition among the EFI providers -- and maybe get Jialing off their complacent military asses to spend the bucks necessary and make the promised upgrades.

cheers

Get a carb model while you can. Someday you can't. At least brand new one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by moilami

Get a carb model while you can. Someday you can't. At least brand new one.

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Were we not saying that about autos twenty years ago? Never have touched the "fool" injection system on my Toyota Tacoma in 10 years of ownership since new. Seems I remember rebuilding carbs back in the day. Didn't "they" say something about that fancy electronic ignition back long ago? Points and condensers? "I can fix it by the side of the road."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barnone

Were we not saying that about autos twenty years ago? Never have touched the "fool" injection system on my Toyota Tacoma in 10 years of ownership since new. Seems I remember rebuilding carbs back in the day. Didn't "they" say something about that fancy electronic ignition back long ago? Points and condensers? "I can fix it by the side of the road."

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Electronic ignition versus the old ignition is different beast alltogether when compared to carb vs EFI. The main difference being the old ignition system required constant maintenance. Carb does not require constant maintenance, and if it breaks, it is easier to troubleshoot and fix than EFI.

But if you don't like carb and think EFI is so much superior that a bike without it sucks, then buy EFI bike. It is simple.

My point is that both can work very well, but carb happens to be more reliable system in the end requiring less special tools. I can ride very happily with a bike with either fuel system.

This is also end of line for me with this issue. I am not on for carb vs EFI war.

Just a bit of info...

The 2011 model YBR250 is 24,800 rmb not including tax. (The dealers said the new model is a little greener. The only noticable difference to the layman is the ugly silver exhaust system has been replaced with a black muffler) So an extra 3000rmb min is needed to get the YBR road ready. 28,000 rmb before you're even thinking about plates. The YBR is now totally out of my reach. When i was quoted (14,800rmb) for the Regal Raptor the dealers told me the price included tax, insurance etc, so i stupidly assumed that the price for all bikes included tax, but it doesn't. The Raptor is looking more attractive now.

Another 250 option that i've seen on the Yingang site... The YG3R. I have no idea about it's price or availabilty in China. Sexy bike but too sporty for me.

Attachment 3407

It's also of no use to anybody but i wanted to share this website. http://www.jsjtmoto.com/

It's a bike shop in Guandong selling second hand grey import bikes. There's some real beauties. None of them are legal however. I found this website in the MotorCycle Trend magazine which had me thinking for a minute that these bikes might be legit. My wife called and they are NOT. The guy said he would send a plate from another province. Highly suspect. Here are my picks of the bikes for sale.

CB400
Attachment 3408

Honda 250
Attachment 3409

RS250
Attachment 3410

KLX250
Attachment 3411


It just goes to show that you need to be really careful buying bikes in China. The guy was very willing to send a bike to Shanghai and he was suggesting that with the plates the bikes are legal. The bikes are dirt cheap and if i'd have found this site a couple of months ago before i found MCM i probably would have bought one of these.

I don't mind smearing the image of his company as he tried to con my wife. I would suggest to anybody considering a used bike in China. Don't!

Here's another one. I've never seen this bike before but wouldn't it be nice?

Yamaha 250

Attachment 3412

Those smuggled goods in fact are much more complicated:icon10: than "second hand grey import".

Precisely what i'm saying. I'm new to the whole China bike scene and trying to learn as i go.
Hence my conclusion stay away from second hand bikes.

TD, you sayin' these bikes are not "second hand" but "still owned by people who are wondering where they are"? That'd be my guess too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphonius

TD, you sayin' these bikes are not "second hand" but "still owned by people who are wondering where they are"? That'd be my guess too.

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that is just one of types regarding its origin. Tricky....:mwink:

I've finally made my decision and put a deposit down on the Regal Raptor DD250G-2N. It should arrive straight from the factory in a couple of weeks. 23k yuan including tax, insurance, and the yellow C plate. And they even gave us two free t-shirts. Haha

My wife has spent a couple of weeks fishing around the MOTOFANS forum and found a nice community of Raptor owners here in Shanghai. They mostly have positive things to say about the bike. A lot of them admitted that there'll be a few teething issues with the bike for the first few months but generally the bike lasts quite well, and they put some serious miles on theirs. They all meet up every other weekend and seem more than happy to have a foreigner joining their ranks. Very accomodating.

I also met Wrangler down at the Pubei Lu store on Sat and he seems very happy with his Raptor 250 cruiser, i met his Italian friend who has just bought the Raptor 350 Daytona so their are plenty of Raptor owners to go on rides with and share experiences.

Wrangler kindly showed me the Taobao site for Raptor parts, everything is dirt cheap so i shouldn't have too many problems buying parts and upgrades for the bike. Which played a big part in helping me choose this bike.

Another factor in my decision was the sales woman at Pubei Lu. She's been fantstic, really friendly and fairly knowledgable about bikes. My wife likes her so that has helped a lot. The official store (Pubei Lu) is fairly close to my house and the mechanics there really know their stuff. So, all in all a good decsion made, i think. I'm soon to be a proud motorbike owner.

My wife and i also went to the Shanghai moto market and blew a load of cash over the weekend. It's an amazing place for bike enthusiasts. I bought a horn, HID lights, HJC helmet, Alpinestars summer jacket with armour, matching gloves, Martian alarm system, Hamlock armour warrior disc lock, rim and tank stickers, carbon fibre look indicators, and those motor cross brake levers that China V has on his Yingang. I'm pretty much set to go.

I just wanted to thank everybody for their advise and helping me make an informed decision. Safe riding to all.

Excellent, a grand solution and all the local connections make it even better. Enjoy, I am envious!

This isn't mine. Just a few images lifted from Baidu.

I know this bike has been reviewed to death but i'm so excited i'll start my own thread soon with pics and my initial impressions.

Attachment 3492
Attachment 3493
Attachment 3494
Attachment 3495

She's a beauty aint she?

Thanks Jape. I'm a happy man.

Sure looks like the bike ZMC888 was riding when we swam through floods in Qufu last summer. A lot of braking muscle in those twin front disks.

Yes, she's looking sweet in all black -- you could crash any cocktail party in Shanghai, especially with the lovely red springy accents.

Next step: your driving test!

Congratulations