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OP means original poster, in this case, you.Quote:
Originally Posted by corporal_clegg
I'm not sure I follow your logic... No registration means no insurance .. Insurance works even outside your resident city. I don't understand what steve is talking about .. Excuse my rudeness, but I call bull' .. Your insurance covers you nationwide.
Here's how I see it. Your drivers license and insurance are good nationwide, but the actual bike registration, i.e. the license plate is not.
The evidence to support this view comes from the many signs in other cities that say 'No wai di bikes allowed' The rule applies for cars in certain situations and places also, for example in Shanghai they don't allow the wai di plates on the elevated roads during rush hour
Every city or 'shi' generally makes their own rules, and it's too complicated to know in advance what each jurisdiction wants or doesn't want with the bikes. When we're talking cross-country trips, there could easily be dozens of jurisidictions crossed. As a general rule, if the police wanted to stop a bike or a car from out-of-state, they could easily do so and say that this particular city requires XYZ or else you pay a fine -- whether that rule is true or not, as it would be too difficult for an out-of-towner to know the true rules anyway.
That being said, of course registration is better than no registration, but the point is that China isn't really set up to handle cross-country bike trips, or long distance trips in general for that matter. So if the guy wants a quick trip and isn't taking the highways, then it's a minimal risk and he may as well not bother registering. Just my couple of fen worth.
Dear Steve,
With all due respect, I think your logic is flawed. I've ridden extensively in China with my Shanghai plate, including through cities with bike bans. Just because a city bans bikes does not overrule your own responsibility (to yourself and your pillion as well as to the law and society) to be licensed, registered/plated and insured. The national traffic law requires that motor vehicles have licenses, though this gets dodgy at smaller displacements. If you take out a peasant in some rural place, and are not licensed and registered, national and provincial law are still in effect. Your insurance will be void and you stand an excellent chance in the current enforcement environment of being deported. Why on earth would you endorse taking this risk just because some cities have banned bikes? As Mr Spock would say, "illogical."
As for the magnitude of the risk of taking out a peasant in some rural place, you may have superhuman riding skills, but for us mere mortals, the chances of bad shit happening are actually quite high. And they rise exponentially in bad weather and darkness. Being a newb like clegg further boosts the chances of mayhem. Add a pillion as clegg will do, and they go even higher because of the pilot's compromised ability to control the bike.
Oh, one more thing: Would you consider ever riding unregistered or unlicensed or uninsured in your own home country? We foreigners are guests in this country, and have an obligation to obey local laws, even if they are hackneyed or haphazard or illogical. If you get arrested, burned or broken, or take someone else's life or cause injury while flaunting the law, there's blowback for all of us.
thanks for listening.
cheers
Yup - what he said!Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
+1
I promised I will writeup some safety tips so here it goes.
Normally you shouldn't be replace forum advice for professional, hands on training. But you're here in China, and you're going to ride anyway. I think I know what you're going through, so I'll took the time to write what I did to survive on the road. I'm from Beirut, Lebanon. Traffic is a mix of civilized, random, boring, scary... Roads are also a mix of twisty narrow mountain roads, or pothole ridden city roads. A bit like Chinese roads in a way. All the better training ..
gn250
That was a long time ago, but I even today it's still true in some parts of the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
Anyway, back to motorcycles ... I learned back in the summer of 2006 on my own. Beirut, and whole country was being bombed and I had little else to do but stare at a computer screen to keep my sanity. I was one of the few lucky who still had internet connection at the time(I worked for one of the biggest ISPs). I can't take an MSF course, but there were plenty of videos discussing various crashes. I spared none, all the while I didn't even have a bike, and really, I've never tried even a scooter. After 2 months, I bought a second hand 400cc cruiser. You should have seen the look on the guy's face when I asked him to ride the bike home for me. Then I started practicing what's already in my head.
When you start riding, part of your training will be to read traffic, anticipate other people's moves, know your limits and surroundings. Again, easier for me to do since I'm just used to reading hectic traffic. Headcheck before changing lanes; that means don't just rely on your mirrors, turn your head around, look for oncoming traffic. This is easier to do on my some bikes than others. Like on my bike, upright seating position.
One common crash I was talking about, picture this scenario :: Something happens and you panic, grab a fistful of brake, and swerve trying to avoid some obstacle. This results in a skid, i.e. your wheel locked with respect to the bike, but still sliding along the tarmac. After that, you either highside, or lowside. Both very ugly. If you anticipate this happening, you can program better reflexes. Really, when it happens, you have no time to think. So you have to know this in your bones. You can only slightly brake unless the bike is upright and pointing straight. This not limited to wet roads or corners.. So practice stopping. The key to braking is to try to brake gradually, meaning don't pull the brake all with all your might all at once. Use both brakes, 75% front 25% rear. Remember, you can't swerve and brake. You have a second to decide which one. When you want to brake hard, do it upright, in a straight line.
Learn to see bad road conditions. It's not just potholes and bumps, that's what cagers care about. You should also look out for leaves, sand, coal dust, water is not so bad.. To get a feeling of your bike sliding try wet marble!
Know your bike, you should know what sounds ok, and what doesn't.
Target fixation. Look at where you want to go, not what you're trying to avoid. This is the one that still gets even veteran riders.
Learn to drop the bike without your leg pinned under it. Bikes feel very light when they're upright, the weight might deceive you. If the bike starts to tip over and catch you off guard, you don't want your leg under it then. Also learn to lift a bike. Practice on grass. Here's how to pick up your bike after a drop.
Bike checkup before you go:: brakes, chain, tires .. kick stuff around.
also have a look here >> http://www.reddit.com/r/motorcycles/faq
There's plenty more to write.. but that's enough for now..
Thanks a lot man. Vid and links are exactly what I needed. I think most of it will come naturally just target fixation and weave\breaking and the emergency breaking will have to be drilled home. Hope you'll come for a ride with us, if the gods will it we will be in Yunnan in august
In terms of bike registration, for myself it's an eventual goal with a Shanghai C plate ... gradually working towards it, but will take time as it's not an easy task. Meanwhile, I want to ride the bike, and will do it unregistered or with fake plates until I get legal. It's a balance of risks and responsibilities, and this interim has lasted almost 3 years now.
Legal or not, getting into an accident in China is the worst thing that can possibly happen, and I try to have that mentality to avoid it at all possible costs.
If other foreigners want to ride a bike here, it's up to them. I just hope they understand the risks involved, and yes you're right, that could involve deportation. People are still going to take that risk. As much as I find this discussion interesting, I doubt this is going to accomplish much in changing behavior, and so we'll leave the decision to invidual riders about what they choose to do.
Ditto to those comments!Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
We may find the laws, regulations and associated issues to be problematic or even discriminatory - that should not in anyway suggest that any one of us take a less than legal approach or worse trivialise a topic that can get serious pretty darn quick. Choosing to knowingly ride/drive unlicensed or with 100% fake plates, can have far reaching consequences beyond what might seem isolated and trivial. Recently the laws have changed with regards to license plates and using or altering them in any way shape or form, from being minor traffic violations to such acts being viewed and prosecuted as criminal acts - getting caught results in far more serious consequences. It's worth noting that many of the traffic cameras are using character recognition technology, especially true on the expressways, and traffic police also are more often carrying and using hand held e-terminals that can bring up licensing/plate data in real time. I've seen them being used first hand in the past several months.
The question to be asked is would I attempt to do such a thing or carry xxxx activity back in my country of citizenship? The answer would more often than not, be no, so why would one think to do so here. The kind of attitude that prevails in some instances when people from abroad start to flout the rules/laws/regulations here, often smacks of hypocrisy, in that many of us foreigners here complain about similar inadequacies and injustices of everyday rules, morals, norms, behaviours etc., yet this very behaviour that Stever_R condones, which is highly illegal (and now criminal) as somehow being acceptable is plan wrong. As a fellow road user, your next accident might just involve me or someone I know, while remote and highly unlikely, any incident involving you or your illegal activities can still provide a ripple effect that could have ramifications far greater than yourself, and thereby filter down to me at some point in time. Think universality.
Steve_R you make reference that you are working towards eventual legal licensing/plating, but it's a hard task and has taken you 3 years thus far, and you seem as though you are in no great hurry and are by accounts somewhat content with the status quo. I've got to ask what appears to be the hold up, since getting a plate and getting all legal takes about an hour to maybe a half/full day tops. Certainly that's been my experience in both SH where I used to reside many years ago, and down in Zhejiang.
As for the comment about out of province plates. I can see some of your argument, but having been in a no-fault accident where a local driver in a small village in another province drove out from between two sets of buildings onto the road ahead leaving me little option but for me to hit the vehicles left front guard, and leaving my motorcycle unrideable (although only superficially damaged). My being all legally plated, licensed, and insured worked 100% in favour. Local traffic police called in their boss (back from his leave on the first day of week-long public holiday) who in turn had to call his assistant, who had to call in a translator. The other driver was found 100% at fault (and he was). Had I not been able to tick all the boxes the driver may have had a defence, since he was claiming I'd hit his vehicle - even though he'd pulled out without even so much as a glance to his left.
Anyone contemplating not riding/driving legally in China is just asking for trouble sooner or later.
Hi Bikerdoc, these are fair points you bring up on your side of the debate, as are the points I bring up. But it doesn't look like any of us are going to change our relative actions on how we ride the bikes in China (legally or not) so we may as well not bother with a debate on this topic.
That being said, my perspective on this issue is *careful* riding and long-term legality. In other words, I am not advocating full-blown illegal law flaunting. It pains me to see newbies who get on a bike, blow past cops, and say "Hey look at me, screw your laws", with that kind of attitude, etc. Sounds absurd, but one of my colleagues at work does exactly this. He goes really slowly in front of the cops so they can see him without a license plate, then yells at the cops and takes off full throttle. This guy is of Indian ethnicity, just for information's sake.
There are cases (see below) where illegal riding is regretable, but it's the only alternative. In this situation, the idea is to ride as carefully as possible, to be respectful of other road users, etc. Unfortunately, it becomes necessary to avoid police, but on rare occasions when stopped, the name of the game is to be polite.
As we know in China, things take forever to accomplish and lots of bureaucracy, paperwork, money, greasing the gears, etc. This isn't to say that registration is impossible, it's just very arduous and time consuming. It would be incorrect to even hint at the fact that getting something done in China is simple.
In my case, I first need to get an actual motorcycle license, and back home is the best place for that. Right now I have managed to get a car drivers license which also took ages, and the details would be too much to get into.
Meanwhile, everything I learned about motorcycles was right here in China. First it was two years of illegal scooter riding -- carefully, I will add, and it was of necessity that I got one, because there was no transport at the school I worked at. Later, the first bike I got was in the hinterlands of Chongqing, I figured out how to ride on the spot, then rode the bike with me back to Shanghai across country.
There is more to learn here, actually unlearn, when I go back home and do the motorcycle tests and safety courses. If all goes well, more bureaucracy will be involved to transfer the license to a Chinese one in addition to my existing car license. Then there are issues with housing registration, and the location of the new house I moved to which should be valid since it's outside the middle ring road.
Long story short, I should be street legal here in China by the end of this year. Meanwhile, I still ride illegally until it no longer becomes necessary to do it.
The whole home country vs. China argument doesn't work because in your home country it is actually a relatively simple task to register a motorcycle, and the legalities are straightforward. There's no need to ride illegally back home, because you can actually do it legally.
steve, good luck man, you must be finding life very tough indeed ..
Dear Steve, again with all due respect, this is one great self-delusional heap of nonsense. In the three years you've been engaging in "full-blown illegal law flaunting," which really is the only way to describe what you are doing (and recommending), I and dewsnap and barry and pat and motokai and a couple dozen other riders have gotten legal motorcycle licenses, some having had overseas licenses and others starting here in china from scratch, and bought and registered motorcycles in a half-dozen or more cities. In each instance, the majority of the time required has been that needed to figure out the process, but once that was discovered the actual process was anything but "arduous and time-consuming". My license took me two tries, each involving a couple of hours primarily because of the long metro ride to the testing center, and my registation took me the better part of one afternoon. Soup to nuts. Legal. No "greasing of gears" or bribery or other shenanigans. A relatively straightforward, simple and convenient process that anyone, even you, could accomplish in the right frame of mind, which seems to be the actual problem here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
Again, in your three years of dithering and telling yourself how hard it is to get things done in China, everyone else seems to be getting along just fine. Standing in line with everyone else and getting legal.
I'm starting to get a sense that your problems getting licensed and registered are entirely of your own making. You want a license and a 沪C plate, just go do it. You'll need a bit north of $1000 for the plate, at last check. Everything else just requires that you show up and pay a few kuai, like everyone else here does. It'll take a couple of weeks, max. Not a year or three years or a decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
Huh? Unlearn? Er, like I said, I'm getting the feeling that your obstacles are all in your own mind. You need to get out of the echo chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_R
I sincerely hope that no one in this forum accepts your view that there is any "necessity" whatsoever to ride illegally, because there is none.
I'm not trying to be a prick about this, but I do care about newb riders and want everyone to enjoy a rich and satisfying experience while motorcycling in China, including you. Which will be my last word on the subject.
Ride safely!
This discussion obviously isn't going anywhere. Once I get that C-plate I'll check in with y'all
I wish that my friend who is riding illegal, trumpets it and is wondering why I bother to go legal would read this thread...
Unfortunately, it probably would make no difference, at all, to your friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by fahni
People are going to ride illegal (probably stolen) bikes if they get them cheap, and they believe that they won't get caught, or that nothing bad could happen to them. And let's admit it, most motorcyclists are inherent risk-takers.
Though i definitely advocate legal riding in china and have always made sure to be all legal myself, let me just play satan's preacher here a bit.
Firstly, riding legally may have the moral high ground in this debate but illegal riders certainly have the numbers. Just because you don't hear about them on this forum doesn't mean they don't exist. Most of us long-termers in china frequent both chinese and foreign rider clubs. How many people can you say ride legally in those clubs, honestly? 20%, 30%? I'm not saying it's a good thing, i'm saying a lot of people are getting away with it. The attitude around here seems to be saying "ride legal or get deported" but i that's not the case. Ride illegal and you'll probably get away with it. Getting legal is like insurance: if you fuck up and you're legal you're just more likely to survive the legal aftermath.
Secondly, i am totally with steve on the 'would you ride illegal back home?' argument being irrelevant in china. China is a Dick to bikers and we all know this. Having been lucky enough to find a way to get legal here does not take anything away from the fact that it is a total headfuck. Euphonious and all you supporters of this argument, if freeways were illegal to bikes back home, would you persistently try to get on them knowing that it will likely result in problems with the police? You've paid the (outrageous) price of admission to legal riding in shanghai, does this make you above the law for other matters relating to biking in china? I'm not trying to make any enemies here, i'm just sayin that the way you regard illegal riders in china might be the same that car drivers regard you on the freeways: "i've paid the price of admission on this road (a car), how does this asshole think he can get away with it?"
I will update the getting a licence & getting legal thread here soon with my own experience before I throw away all the scraps of paper this process has burdened me with. It is indeed easy when you know exactly what you're doing. In the last month I have spent about four or five whole days, hours and hours walking around (today in the pissing rain) to get my sh*t together. Following leads and misinformation has used most of that time. Knowing what you're doing you could probably set all the gears in motion in only one day (after finding a bike) When the dust has settled I will detail my adventure. I only decided to get a bike last month and within one more month I will be biked and legal (pending further setbacks).
I would share what I have learned (including how to get a hu-c in your name when your current living address does not allow it) so that others may find their attempts free from unnecessary bs.
WHERE IS PAL?!
I've just found this thread and i have to say it's been an interesting read...
My only offering to the discussion is to highlight that obtaining the bike license in Shanghai (China?) is really simple and there're no excuses for not doing it. I've said before that the whole process from health check to black book (driving license) took me a mere 10 weeks. It's certainly a much cheaper and easier process than back in the UK.
Everyone's entitled to make their own decisions; riding legally or not. I don't really care. I was one of the guys blasting around illegally on a scooter for 12 months, and i only decided to get legal when i couldn't get petrol anymore. I'm married with a baby now so i dont want to risk deportation or heavy fines. Each to their own.
After talking to other bikers in China though it's become painfully obvious that having a minor 'off' or scrape or perhaps a major incident is pretty much a matter of when rather than if. If you're unfortunate to have another person involved and you don't have a license, there's no getting away from it, you're screwed. Big time! Blatant fact!
A Shanghainese friend of mine was riding along a highway in Anji, fully licensed, insured, registered, legit, when he was hit by a girl on a scooter without plates. She had no license or helmet and was riding irratically. The guy was at no fault, but the police stung with a 150,000 rmb fine or prison time, probably because he was an out-of-towner. Can you imagine how that would have panned out if the rider was a foreiger without a license?
... 10 weeks to get the driving license from start to finish, it's a no brainer.
Some good points made by Felix ... the reality on the ground, in terms of numbers, is that more bikes are out there illegally or semi-legally than legally. This of course takes into account our Chinese riding brothers / colleagues, who make up the vast majority of motorcycle or scooter riders on the streets.
A quick peruse through the Chinese forums will find many highly against the policies and laws on bikes, and using very harsh words spoken against their own government and the police who enforce the rules (for example, with the fueling ban in Shanghai) and other actions that discriminate against those who don't have big bucks. But that's China in general, as the masses are increasingly dissatisfied with the CCP and how they favor the rich.
For those Chinese flushed with cash, and the expats who have paid membership in the club, it is understandable they would look down on the majority of illegal or semi-legal riders who haven't paid this admission fee, or haven't yet. There is probably anger also, in the sense that those who have paid the fee still can't access the expressways, ride on the 'gao jia', and face multiple bike bans outside of their registered city. For example, the guy with a registered Shanghai plate who still got smoked with a fine in Anji just because he was an out-of-towner in that area.
Meanwhile, those who don't pay the admission fee into the club can still cruise around with a low risk of getting caught, and still enjoy many of the benefits of those who have paid their dues.
Naturally, this would provoke a response of anger from those who have shelled out big bucks to be legal, and frankly, I can't blame them for getting angry.
In the long-term, as I've mentioned before, getting legal is the way to go. It's basically like insurance. In my own case I have a plan for it, and I'm not in any great hurry because I want to get as much information as possible from others and make sure that when I make the attempt, I succeed on the first try.
Sure it's easy to be legal if you know how, but part of the difficulty is learning how it's done, and that's where the time is needed. Meanwhile, there is no pressing urgency to do it now because I can still ride semi-legally along with hundreds of others of my Chinese colleagues. As others have mentioned, they're out riding the streets and not posting in motorcycle forums.
Stop shouting, I hear you....Quote:
Originally Posted by corporal_clegg
Looks like your taking steps in the right direction and will loose your moron status ("I do what I want in China and ride with fake plates or no plates / driving-license") very soon.
Ride safe & hang loose! PAL
ps: the wall of shame out at scooter-town....
http://i53.tinypic.com/18ggh2.jpg
“我们村里我最帅1314”
:lol8:, that's spirit.
I should get that plate for special occasions.
Soooo... back on topic. I think it is "road trip advice" not "get legal morons". I have a tentative trip plan from google maps. I think it looks great, what do you think
woops. you cant see it, can't delete the message. oh well..
Ok figured out a way to show it.
Attachment 4501
What do you think? Any advice would be appreciated like if theres some nice spots im missing out on or crappy spots im going through a heads up would be appreciated.
Also dont know if we should go north or south around wuhan, south looks better...
grr... still not working properly...
I'd agree about the southern option to/from Wuhan. If you want detailed routes on the Shangai-Wuhan portion, just send me a PM. I've done that route twice and it's rather tricky as there are several expressway portions that have to be avoided. That is to say, the G318 actually becomes an expressway in parts of Zhejiang and Anhui province and you'll need alternative routes.
Legal or not, bikes cannot ride on the highways, and this is strictly enforced. The latest account about Motokai and Milton riding on the Zhejiang highways for their trip and getting stopped by the police should be proof enough of this.
As for Wuhan itself, I'd recommend giving the entire city a wide berth unless you have friends there or business to do. It's a polluted eyesore, to be frank, after having survived there for a year. And the traffic is absolutely TERRIBLE!
If you must go through Wuhan, I'd suggest using the 3rd ring road (san huan xian) as a bypass. The outermost ring road is an expressway, and no bikes allowed on it.
http://maps.google.com.hk/maps?f=d&s...689697&t=p&z=7
as far as I can see i'm avoiding expressways except when crossing a river or two, i'm sure I will be able to find another way around
Don't sweat the toll gates too much. In some places the express way and the trail are blended into one at some sections, that's when you know you're starting to reach the good country. Going on an express way is a offense i don't mind committing when I'm in a rush.. I've done it before, got caught and escorted off the highway .. But nothing really serious.. Again, your mileage might vary.. Good luck! 5k trip, should have alot of memories to tell your kids later..
What bike are you getting ?
Qingqi 200 gy w. passenger. Have only 20 days or so so may have to cut the trip short. Will send the bike back on the train... or maybe just the passenger ;) if we can't make it. I can stay out as longer, she has to be back for work