Hum me hai hero

The problem is still the same, a high percentage of scooter sales in the USA are made in china.
They are sold online and many violate patents and some likely emission and safety regulations.
In that they do not want to be counted. If they were then they would be sued or fined.

To be legitimate it comes with a patent and trademark.
To be legitimate offerings are well made and meet emission laws.
To be legitimate offerings are sold through licensed dealers in each state, the dealers operate under each states law for consumer protection, and they offer warranty and repairs.

Hero found a US partner, they capitalized that partner it’s Erik Buell Racing. They can come in in total legitimacy, with trademarks and patents, with emission certificates, with licensed real dealers supported with a professional staff and business system.
There are huge numbers of people looking at low cost entry level motorcycles, many will not buy online it is a very faulted and limited system. Ideally there needs to be a network of national dealers and that is a matter of offering them some profit to sell and support the motorcycles. Unfortunately many are now jaded by the cheap Chinese. Dodgy illegal copies with falsified emissions certificates, which are coming out of factories that have no quality control.

Hero would be offering low cost licensed Honda products as well as models designed and developed by EBR.

You can get a SYM T2 in the USA for $3,799.00, it is safe to say that the HX250R would cost less and outperform the T2. It cost less than the Honda CB300R and Ninja 300, if it comes over at close to 300 lbs it will get noticed. But that is not what is new here, what is new is 150cc and 100cc bikes that is a vacant segment in the USA, its not that it is a small segment, it’s that it does not even exist today.

I would look at the Karizma, it be fun to ride and fun to piss people off that are offended by it.
Its nice to jump on a little light weight single and not make such a big production. Its like a roadster apposed to big block muscle car. But the thing is if the cost is too high, like over 4k out the door, I like it less or not enough? I bet this bike is very reliable 223cc with EFI and tuned up already to 20hp.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...8178e41313.jpg

I kinda expected that the US market is more transparent and that the rules are clear and are applied to all, without exception. Somehow, I did not expect that a dozen small companies selling C-motos and scoots, mentioned here in few topics, can avoid clear rules and laws. Yes, their offer is trashy, support to the customers, as mach I understand, practically non-existent, same as dealer's network, but how can they dodge emission laws, homologations or any certification of conformity and stay under the radar, so to speak? And how those bikes/scoots can get plates?

I understand that each market has its own specificities and customer's habits, but I could not agree that the problem is "made in China" two-wheeler "per se".

Maybe you in the US need agile team of serious people who will pick decent quality/attractive/wanted bikes and scooters from reputable Chinese manufacturers, something like more than once mentioned Polish "Junak".

By the way, do not look at "Karizma". Wait for the kitchy golden-red "Mahindra Mojo" and piss people by talking trash with an accent as it had Peter Sellers in "The Party". :icon10:

As a fan of these little horizontal, I want to share something I've noticed in this 100 cc "Heroes". Virtually all Chinese clones of so-called "small bore" (50-110 cc) "Honda's" horizontals have the clutch basket mounted on the crankshaft, while "Heroes" have a basket mounted on the gearbox. In theory, this means that there will be much less vibrations as the rather large mass clutch assembly spins much slower. Plus, "Hero" engine with that configuration has a couple ponies extra than generic Chinese 100-110 cc horizontal.

The Motorcycle Industry Council is not government, if you were to ask them how many Chinese manufactured scooters were sold in the USA, they could not tell you. That is because the Council gathers numbers by calling on each “manufacturer” they request sales numbers. Who would they call for the Chinese imports and even if they could make a contact what do you think the response would be to their inquiry?

Considering that anyone can pull up a list of certified models for sale through the EPA for any year just to see what “manufactures” exist and applied and then were granted certificates and for what vehicles. The list has all the major brand names on it, but what about all the “manufactures” that are selling the Chinese imports.

I can assure you what is being imported from China and sold is not being counted in overall market sales by the Motorcycle Industry Council. They admit it and state they only have data from 75% of the manufactures. Which to me seems a generous percentage, simply because well over half of the names of “manufactures” on the EPA list are not in their count. Simply because all the Chinese imports are through continuously changing “Manufactures”. Each year the names change in the list of vehicles certified by the EPA. There are many names on that list representing Chinese imports.

As for the EPA certificates they can and do go into the market and check vehicles, they check to see if it is what was certified with them, is it what the manufacturer claimed or not. They likely struggle to find the Chinese vehicles in any real dealership, most are sold out of a warehouse. If the EPA shows up at the warehouse to check, then are they being unfair are they singling out the few? You can be sure they get accused of that. You can also be sure that often when they check they find vehicles that are markedly different then what was applied for.

It’s not the same for HERO, however they will be treated the same. The biggest challenge will be in getting independent dealers to accept them, agree to sell them. In reality that is about unit profits, there are no dealers interested in selling what has very little profit. There is no big demand for motorcycles, even less for under 600cc, they are not a necessity. So they have to get inside of big dealers and that is not easy in most cases. Many equate having a small motorcycle to what is feminine. I met a man that sold his Mini Copper because he got fed up of the comments made about it. He said he did not care what others thought, but that the comments never ended and he did not want to hear it anymore, he traded it in on an F-150.
It is not that everyone is an asshole, it’s just that assholes are everywhere.

how de pard den r

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...400d1595d3.jpg

Here is a link to a list of Voided EPA certificates.

August 1, 2014: EPA withdrew its approval of the import and sale of over 28,000 gas-powered highway and off-road motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles because the agency believes that it received either incomplete or falsified certification information. All vehicles imported into or manufactured in the United States are required to have certificates of conformity. EPA issued the vehicle certificates from 2007 to 2011 to CFMoto. As a result of a lengthy investigation, the agency believes that the applications for the certificates contained fallacious information and must be voided. This notice follows actions in April 2013 and October 2013 in which EPA voided certificates from Snyder Computer Systems dba Wildfire Motors, American Lifan and Jonway which impacted up to 70,000; 61,000; and 39,000 vehicles, respectively. The applications were submitted by Michael Johnson of System Launch Associates who has pled guilty to wire fraud and submitting false statements under the Clean Air Act and is currently awaiting sentencing.

One of these days I will take some time to download the EPA list for 2015 and summarize it. The link today seems to be updating?
It is here on this webpage.

• Annual Certification Test Results and Data

I'm really suprised that this "fishing in troubled water" possible in a such extent. 170,000 vehicles - that's no children's game.

About "Hero" in American market: I think that Americans are not used to any vehicle, two or four wheeled - no difference, with a small displacement engine. While in Italy some "cinquantino" is virtually member of a family, or a battered "papaki" an essential part of household inventory in Greece, as well as at least one old "Tomos" almost in every home across the former Yugoslavia, in the US is motorbike like that an ordinary commodity, something that causes emotions as much as loaf of bread and a bottle of milk.

Yet, I want to believe that there is a big enough niche in the American market for "Hero's" small displacement bikes, to be worthwhile to both, factory and their local dealers (unless they expect a big, fat profit margin of a 2-2.5k bucks bike).

Never ending comments about small bikes? What's wrong with small bikes? C'mon, those are not man bags! :icon10: Small bikes are nimble, swift, even easy going and friendly (and now, in background plays "Felicita" by Al Bano and Romina :lol8:). Although, vanity is a tricky thing...

And when I mentioned "Mahindra Mojo", it was reffering to "Mojo" based on "Malaguti" MR 250 concept bike, not this contemporary red and white one.

Attachment 16976

It’s not that transparent, it’s a competitive market, all participates operate under a common set of regulations. Sales numbers are not public information, not directly. Sales numbers are a road map to a market share that can be used by a competitor. However product safety and consumer protection require some accountability to what is sold and to whom and were.
Those that enter and participate are expected to fully understand and respect the regulations.
Under scrutiny it all becomes apparent as to whether intentions are admirable or not. It all becomes pretty transparent, that being once a bright light is shone on it.
Here is the thing, if there is low or little to no quality control that is typically preceded by low quality at every functional level into the market. If production is not under control then what ends up in the market is typically also out of control as well. It all has to be legitimate backed with testing and documentation. It is not possible for authorities to prove you did something wrong if you did nothing wrong.
It’s not really always about who you know, it is more about what you know and in that getting it right and in that being able to if not prove it at least be able to present a defense. That’s about fully understanding and demonstrating a path that was righteous. Assuming and accusing the authorities as biased and prejudice…that will increase the probability of a conviction. The only defense is a presented case of well documented proof of due diligence.
Here is what is really going on, the store that being the dealership that is local has the full liability for what they sell. If its defective crap they can be held liable for it. That is why most dealerships say no thanks. They could also wake to a letter stating the inventory they have has lost its EPA certificates and have to stop selling it. The Chinese stumbled in and made a mess and the industry now refuses them.
To succeed there has to be a backer with capital and one that is committed to standing behind what it manufactures and sells. Seriously a warranty has to be underwritten, it’s a fund as an account held by a third party, these people leave the market and any claimed warranty evaporates. They leave and make accusations of unprecedented regulatory action, yeah in the face of what is historically unprecedented fallacious and intentional regulatory violations.

This is what is available out of India...2015

Engine OEM MFR	Vehicle OEM MFR	Vehicle OEM Country	No of Cylinders	Valve per Cylinder	Engine Displacment(S)	Models Certified	EDV Rated Power	Certificate No	Manufacturer Name
Bajaj Auto Ltd.	Bajaj Auto Ltd.	India	1	4	373	390 Duke, RC 390	32	FKTXC.373RCD-007	KTM North America, Inc.
Bajaj Auto Ltd.	Bajaj Auto Ltd.	India	1	4	373	390 Duke, RC 390	32	FKTXC.373RCD-007	KTM North America, Inc.
Royal Enfield Motors Unit of Eicher Motors LTD.	Royal Enfield Motors Unit of Eicher Motors LTD	India	1	2	499	Bullet Classic EFI, Bullet EFI, Bullet Electra Cla, Bullet Electra EFI	20.3	FREEC0.50ELF-001	Royal Enfield
Royal Enfield Motors Unit of Eicher Motors LTD.	Royal Enfield Motors Unit of Eicher Motors LTD	India	1	2	535	Continental GT	20.3	FREEC0535ELF-002	Royal Enfield
Royal Enfield Motors Unit of Eicher Motors LTD.	Royal Enfield Motors Unit of Eicher Motors LTD	India	1	2	535	Continental GT	21.4	FREEC0535ELF-002	Royal Enfield
LML, Ltd.	LML, Ltd.	India	1	2	125	Stella 125 Automatic	6.8	FGSCC.125STA-002	Genuine Scooters, LLC

LML Vespa too. :scooter:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorge

LML Vespa too. :scooter:

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Genuine Scooters also partners with Her Chee Industrial as well as LML.

They offer a 2-stroke 3.2hp called a Rough House
http://scooterworkschicago.com/wp-co...roughblack.jpg

If at least half of the importers of Chinese scooters, which you recently mentioned, are similar to "Genuine scooters" (BTW, they have nice scooter range), then you do not need to be displeased and resentful. I mean, not all import of C-scooters should be dodgy business as smugling Cuban cigars or "Kinder Surprise" chocolate eggs.

Ride Apart: Erik Buell Racing Goes Bankrupt - Hero Still Coming to the US

http://rideapart.com/articles/erik-b...ay-seen-coming

I was considering creating a thread for really bad business models.

It's Mr's Buell bad biz-carma.

"Hero's" gonna hit US soil one way or another.

I believe the plan was to bring over a 250cc entry level and also a 650cc twin midrange. What those in the industry know is that the customers are image and ego driven. Consider the loyal historic Benelli customer they did not want any association with anything they considered beneath them.
The superbike classification is for those that are pretty serious in reality and also for those with serious aspirations, sometimes they die in that.
I personally do not see any viable market for the types of bikes that Hero currently offers. They would have to offer the 250 and 650 only and they would have to be better than the competition. Not just the designs they would have to have excellent performers. Then they would have to have a national sales network. Buell could not develop that with their superbike, in order to show up in every market it requires allot of independents to be convinced, which mean you better demonstrate a very serious commitment to the market and products and also be prepared for the worst.
Before that could happen or attempted it would require some real numbers, we can see the competition in the 250 and 650 classes and also the costs. The target would be a significant portion of those sales. In that it requires being better and for less, but also to make the sale the profit to the dealers has to be highest as well.
That all translates into being prepared to show losses for several years on the balance sheets.
To be honest neither of the models that being the 250 single or the 650 twin Hastur is that confidence inspiring.
Attempting to sell the bikes they trademarked unfortunately would be futile, dealers will not embrace them because they know that they cannot sell them, they know that many would ridicule the bikes.
As for the 250 and the 650 they need to be more conventional looking, they need to be more design neutral. Honda had to do a quick recover on the CBR250R certain design elements were rejected, they adjusted that and also increased its performance.
The mistake was that Buell was too committed to Made in the USA, the 250 and 650 should have looked like the 1190RX
http://blogs.c.yimg.jp/res/blog-03-b...g_1?1389861693
and the SX
http://www.bikesindia.org/uploads/im...br-1190sx1.jpg
They should have had the 250 and 650 made in India and the 1190 made in the USA.
The partnership should have been for production, which is what others are doing.
The closest it came to that is the nose on the Hero Karizma looking like an EBR and disproportional so.
I would have thought that they would have developed the 250 single and 650 twin on the tracks? Then win some races and then bring that technology to the market with EBR models? But it looks like they got all caught up in weird design exercises?

EBR is filing for Chapter 128, that is what has been refereed to as an obscure law for the State of Wisconsin.
It is not the same as filing in federal court, it is like a loop hole in that state that offers a chance to restructure the debt interest free.

Even though I have a fondness for the Hero bikes, I am a realist and I do not see them selling here at all. The most realistic business model would be to bring the 250 single, 650 twin and 1190 to the market all at once and all under one single Brand and I would suggest EBR as the brand and for all markets.

If they are looking for investors they need to stop patronizing the client base that is often locked in conventional thinking. They also need to push back the CEO's and sell bikes stop selling ideals and dreams. Business is about selling products and making profits, to build a dealer network the bikes have to offer the best dealer margins and also beat the competition on retail prices and also meet all the tick lists of the consumers, the 1190 is not better then a CBR1000rr and it is being offered at a 4k premium and through a sparse network of dealers means that they spent too much on the wrong approach.

If it was made in India then offered there and here it have the opportunity to be a first, I would bet it could have come to all markets as a value leader Super Bike in all markets.

It seems to me that all these engineers that hooked their wagon to EBR would have seen that, The 1190 is not better then the 15k CBR100rr and cost more, it cost less then the Kawasaki H2 but it is not considered comparable to the H2, Kawasaki out reached the segment and has the distribution in place to get away with that and a well established sport bike following.

In order to retain an operation in Wisconsin, they would have to be more aggressive to seek profits and build financials that demonstrate growth and profitability. That is about dropping the self imposed limits and boundaries.

I fail to see how a failed business model could inspire any new investors, I believe that that Hero and EBR can and should re-embrace, it just has to be in a more more pragmatic way. In that there is no reason that EBR cannot have a special division that sells one off special made models, to high end clients but they have to have bread and butter to keep going year after year.

Hero even considering bringing a line of 150cc bikes to the US demonstrates that they have no clear realistic direction. Anyone pointing them in that direction in any encouraging way is serving them up an injustice.

Just to be clear if they introduce the 250 and 650 under the EBR brand those model would require cosmetic redesigns, they would sell well globally. Beating Honda and Kawasaki would be challenging, they already set up their low cost production centers and those are all backed by highly talented operations mangers.

Honda never offered the full line of models that came with its 223cc engine in the USA. They only offered the CRF230, they replaced that single offering of that engine, street legal offering, as they still sell the CRF230F here and for $4,199.00.
I would say they never brought any other models to the USA that utilized that 223cc single simply because they are all manufactured in Japan and in that the costs were too high. They replaced the CRF230 with their 249cc water cooled model that is now coming out of Thailand.
So Hero has an opportunity in that, they can bring a full line of models with that 223cc engine to the USA and market them at an affordable retail price. They would have to create new designs but basically follow the same design types as Honda.
Here is the thing though, they should increase the wheelbase over the Honda’s and make all the offerings 2-3” longer. They need to create an alternative design theme from that of the Honda’s they should be conservative in that, making conventional models that replicate the category of each of the Honda 223cc offerings, but not copies of the Honda designs. The same bikes would get a 125cc version for others markets, but in that they need to add EFI to those and the same tuning principals of the revised 223cc Hero developed.
Hero putting the Karizma on a pedestal as its flagship and that will not stand up well over time. It be better to make a line off that engine, they then could follow up that same principal for the 250 water cooled single, these singular offerings and all the hoopla is rubbish, mass production and lowered economy of scale and market penetration and collected growth should be the agenda.

I expected that the EBR’s "know how" will be used for developing some contemporary quater of a liter engine and "polish" frame, suspension and ergonomics to get bike/bikes competitive to the similiar bikes from the "Japanese Big Four", and then, to apply that same recipe for some twin-cylinder 500-650 cc bike. If you allow me to use some parallels from the automotive world, it would be more than enough if they ("Hero" and EBR) could make something like "Hyundai" or "Kia" on two wheels.

This EBR's super-duper bike was, in my opinion, overkill from the beginning. With enough money in my pocket, I will always chose bike from big and old brand company over one from the minor "underage" company. I mean, exclusivity and individuality are OK, but it has some bad sides, and I am sure that is not only my opinion. I understand that there are many of those who have a completely different opinion, but the question is whether they are sufficient to maintain a small company with its head above water.

https://vimeo.com/126067878

Team Hero EBR withdraws from WSBK

Interview with Pawan Munjal, "Hero's" VP - http://moto-magazine.ru/community/tu...novykh-geroev/

Hero has an intention to build a factory in Columbia, what is interesting is that their small horizontal bike the Passion Pro sells for about $1,100.00 USD there.

http://www.wlivenews.com/wp-content/...ion-Pro-TR.jpg

In 2008 Mahindra purchased a majority of Honda's other partner in India Kinetic Scooters.

Kinetics only sold two stroke scooters, they were not as successful as Hero, Hero's success came in their establishing an extensive dealer network, in every town and village and affordable to nearly everyone.

Hero before its venture with Honda was a manufacturer of bicycles, they had a dealer network in that and offered up the motorbikes within it.

"Kinetic" is/was making few models of mopeds for Slovene "Tomos".

Damn, this doesn't mean enything for everyone outside ex-YU, but for me, this is interesting fact.

Hi Guys, I'm from Bangalore,India. Nice to see so much noise regarding Hero. Where in India it's not enthusiasts bike, it's more of a commuter only company. They're really slow when it comes to releasing higher hp bikes. :)

Don't be shy. Feel free to contribute.

Hero is slow to release any new bikes, the break up with EBR ground the development to a halt, they seem to be getting back to it.

Their 250 is supposed to be coming to the market in 2016.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...1a115a9424.jpg

Hero has a 300cc single in the works they call the XF3R…
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...654b144d8b.jpg

They also have a new model they call the Extreme 200S a 200cc single that offers 18.5hp.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...94bdbdcf4d.jpg
This is the evolution of their Extreme Sport 150, they gave the 200 a mono shock. They intend to offer the 200 to compete in the segments current offerings.

All three on display at this years Indian Auto Expo...

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...517b6840d2.jpg

It seems there is still some work going on between EBR and Hero. The research and development arm of EBR was sold to Hero, so it seems? The end result of the settlement is Hero having three models in development that seem to be pragmatic with consideration to its domestic market in India, and some export markets as well. EBR is now taking deposits for their 1190 models 2016, those with an MSRP of $12,995.00. EBR is also stating a future model they are calling the AX, which may be a 1190 version of an adventure bike?