Fake plate/No plate experience and advice

Around here being in a 3rd tier city it only costs about 500RMB to plate a bike and barely 100RMB for the minimal insurance, yet only about 50% of the Chinese bikes you see on the road are plated and with the riding 'enthusiasts' about 20% have a plate and 50% of those are very likely fake. Loads of Chinese riders ride their Jialing 125cc 'cabbage' dirt bikes, which cannot be plated as they are a group of self assembled parts (3-4000RMB), unless they are the 7000RMB factory version. Or come in the souped up scooter variety. Even about 70% of the foreigners who have ridden here have been illegal, but 80% are on at least legally plated bikes. Illegal Chinese riders are often seen not even wearing helmets. Their rationalizations are quite nutty, 'everyone does that so why should I be different' being number one. There are quite a few legal riders these days and they ride on Qianjiang 150cc bikes or Yamaha YBR125.

I have mixed feelings about illegal riders.

In some ways I'm sympathetic:
1. The insurance is a bit of a joke, you'll pay anyhow.
2.Lights are set up stupidly by the police, many people go through red lights, but actually yield to other vehicles, treating it as a normal intersection rather than slavishly waiting there an eternity.
3. I rode without a Chinese license for many years, because I already had a license from another country, stupidly not recognized in China, a country with much lower riding standards, anyone here for a year or two could be forgiven in my view for not running out and getting a Chinese license, that is if they have already taken a test someplace else.
4. Some legally imported big bikes pre 1998 were 'illegalized' and the plates pulled by police, I have sympathy with the owner of one of these machines to screw the rules and just keep riding it.
5. Some of the costs in some provinces and cities are ridiculously expensive.

In some ways unsympathetic:
1. You are a guest in China, surely just follow the rules as they would be set out in your own country, stupid rationalizations. Or at least try and look legal.
2. Many cheap big bikes are stolen from Hong Kong and then rebuilt by idiots. Seriously you must be some sociopath if you can live with riding someone else's ride. Not to mention the danger of poor assembly.
3. We need legal riders to be a force to protect motorcycling in China. If we don't ride illegal bikes we get to complain about the erosion of motorcycling legality and legitimately press for some change, also the government gets more money from registrations and more demand for legitimately domestically manufactured and imported bikes, meaning that motorcycling be more likely to stay legal.
4. Nothing will speed up bike bans quicker than swarms of souped-up scooters and dirt bikes without plates, and idiots night racing stolen illegal big bikes through city centers. Keep riding=keep legal.

Agreed.
It's not the price. Pricepoint is fine. It's all the obstacles they create.
And, yes, there is always a solution. But I wish it wasn't me who has to come up with one, but the Chinese side.
Anyways, my bikes are legal. Finally. And I like it better this way.

What about this scenario. You have a legally registered motorbike, but keep it for recreational use on weekends only and/or have it safely locked up when you're not riding it. Since it's legal, it's expensive, and you go to great lengths to take care of the bike and deter locals from stealing it. Meanwhile, you also have an illegal scooter for zipping around the city and commuting to work. The scooter is not so expensive. You still take care of it and ride safely, but if a local stole the bike or the police confiscated it, then it wouldn't be the end of the world as you could always get another one.

As for gasoline, you fill up the legal bike with your legal plates, and then siphon some of the gas into the scooter.

For the most part, the bike is used for long-distance rides in and out of the city, and the scooter is used for commuting in the city.

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Originally Posted by Steve_R

For the most part, the bike is used for long-distance rides in and out of the city, and the scooter is used for commuting in the city.

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What's the point?

It's more likely to get into an accident and/or be stopped by police inside the city! The opposite for driving outside of the city!

Why not get legal scooter and illegal (not plated) bike for out of town use?
Better, why not also get a legal scooter?

What's the point of getting DL and a legal bike, but still keep driving an illegal scooter? It's like buying an helmet but almost never wearing it! It's like your wife/gf getting pregnant from this one time you forgot to use a condom!
Guess when you'll get into an accident? Exactly, when driving the illegal scooter AND without helmet!

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

so the question should be asked, would you normally condone such behaviour in your own country (operatibng a vehicle without the required drivers license? I know my answer would be... no, as getting caught or ina crash can have serious consequences! So why then do people feel they have some form of entitlement to do so in mainland China. If one is a foreigner then it is highly likely as such they have an educated background, or life experience or logic to help them make somewhat rational decisions in life. The other issue is as foriengers we are guests here, and should show more respect for the laws, despite what we see the locals doing... the proverb goes "if you saw one jumping off a cliff - would you follow?"

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Actually speaking about laws I don't feel as a guest. I pay taxes as every chinese does (for real???).
And I don't see any moral issues about driving illegally. Actually I don't even see any differences: same crap bikes, inability to drive with common sense, useless insurance. What's the difference between legal and not legal?
The only point to get legal is avoid troubles. if you're willing to take the risk just do it. (I don't).

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Originally Posted by Steve_R

Meanwhile, you also have an illegal scooter for zipping around the city and commuting to work. The scooter is not so expensive. You still take care of it and ride safely, but if a local stole the bike or the police confiscated it, then it wouldn't be the end of the world as you could always get another one.

As for gasoline, you fill up the legal bike with your legal plates, and then siphon some of the gas into the scooter.

For the most part, the bike is used for long-distance rides in and out of the city, and the scooter is used for commuting in the city.

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I can see your point, but an illegal scooter is just that, illegal. Sure many people do it, but this is what these herd-like rationalizations are like. Really are the distances so vast the a bicycle couldn't be an option? Keep fit, healthy and slim so that when you do ride the legal machine you can go quicker and have more fun. I cycle all the time, because I love cycling. I ride motorcycles less often because they are faster and potentially more dangerous, being that I deliberately keep my motorcycle mileage down to about 10,000 kms a year. If I rode one motorcycle as often as I did my bicycle and motorcycle together I'd be doing 20,000-30,000 kms a year, less mileage, less risk.

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

so the question should be asked, would you normally condone such behaviour in your own country (operatibng a vehicle without the required drivers license? I know my answer would be... no, as getting caught or ina crash can have serious consequences! So why then do people feel they have some form of entitlement to do so in mainland China. If one is a foreigner then it is highly likely as such they have an educated background, or life experience or logic to help them make somewhat rational decisions in life. The other issue is as foriengers we are guests here, and should show more respect for the laws, despite what we see the locals doing... the proverb goes "if you saw one jumping off a cliff - would you follow?"

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Interestingly three years ago when I wanted to get my license all the Chinese said why bother just ride illegally.Now they no why I pushed so hard to be legal after some foreigners had some accidents while being illegal and the drama it caused.

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Originally Posted by Barry

What's the point?

It's like your wife/gf getting pregnant from this one time you forgot to use a condom!
Guess when you'll get into an accident? Exactly, when driving the illegal scooter AND without helmet!

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Totally agreed :)

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

Interestingly three years ago when I wanted to get my license all the Chinese said why bother just ride illegally.Now they no why I pushed so hard to be legal after some foreigners had some accidents while being illegal and the drama it caused.

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When I was getting my license here in Nanjing they said it at the local Police station: why get a license? It's just a motorbike, you're a foreigner. It was a revelation. I still got it, though.

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Originally Posted by Steve_Halt

Totally agreed :)

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I've only ever crashed when wearing my helmet and there has been no traffic around. I think not wearing my helmet and other road users keep me a bit more careful. Just saying... ;-)

Also... There's no debate. Wrong is wrong, no matter how much more convenient it might be. The amount of effort going into rationalising illegal riding is rediculous.

If you want to do the wrong thing, because its cheaper or you get beat down in your efforts to go legal, then fine. But let's not pretend it might be OK.... Haha

Just because something is illegal it does not mean it is wrong. I'm sorry but this is the first time I've read something really stupid on this site. Okay.. Probably this Kiamo chappie is Chinese and has always lived here so has no experience of what the world overseas is like. Overseas there are no stupid draconian laws marginalising motorcycles. Just last year we were forced in one town to ride on the EBIKIE/Bicycle Lane as there were too many accidents involving motorcycles. I didnt' and simply drove on through the thugs in uniforms throwing projectiles at me. Riding a motorcycle on the road is not illegal. Riding a motorcycle on the EBIKE road IS illegal. That the police are forcing you to do an illegal thing does not make it right.
Here is another thing to think about. KIAMO.. It is the police that issue driving licenses to drivers in China. If there are too many accidents on the roads in China the problem is with the police passing people who are patently not able to drive safely on the roads.

Countries overseas should now be imposing 100% tax and duty on china exports as china has been a member of the WTO for a long time now. That China imposes these stupid taxes and duties on imported vehicles is disgusting.

People do the "WRONG THING" in many cases to make the world a better place KIAMO. What Mao Zedong started 100 years or so again was illegal.. Women would still be having their feet bound, corruption would be rife here, poverty widespread.. So mate.. Haha.. The law can be an ass... NEVER Say "THERE IS NO DEBATE."

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Originally Posted by kiamo

I've only ever crashed when wearing my helmet and there has been no traffic around. I think not wearing my helmet and other road users keep me a bit more careful. Just saying... ;-)

Also... There's no debate. Wrong is wrong, no matter how much more convenient it might be. The amount of effort going into rationalising illegal riding is rediculous.

If you want to do the wrong thing, because its cheaper or you get beat down in your efforts to go legal, then fine. But let's not pretend it might be OK.... Haha

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Hmm maybe I was a bit fast to say there is no debate. I suppose it might be of value. But don't take my use of the word "wrong" so condemningly.

I see it similar as media piracy. It's easy to do, cheaper and has very lax repercussions. People come up with all sorts of reasons to justify it, including talking about reforming the way it all works, but it doesn't matter.

The laws of the country say no. And that's what makes it "wrong" regardless of our own personal moral compass. I don't think it's relevant whether or not we think it's fair or just.

But the rules are lax and kinda screwed so many of us are happy to do the wrong thing. Same way the media industry encouraged piracy. (more so before digital distribution took off)

At risk of sounding like a broken record (anyone here remember records?), let me repeat:

It's up to you if you want to ride illegally, meaning without a genuine license or genuine registration or insurance. But when you are involved in an accident you'll sorely wish you'd done these three things because, even if you are doing everything right and someone else takes you out and it's completely their fault, if you are unregistered or unlicensed the authorities can assign 100% of the responsibility to you, and your insurance will balk at covering you. You'll be liable to spend 15 days in jail and/or be deported, though you might need a few self-financed weeks or months in the hospital first. None of this may be fair or reasonable, but it's the sea in which we swim if we ride in China, regardless of nationality.

I'm all for civil disobedience to protest unjust laws, but the track record of those who've tried this in China is not very good. More to the point, I'm not sure I understand the deep underlying moral or ethical principle for choosing to ride unlicensed, unregistered or uninsured. Would you do that in your home country?

cheers
euphonius

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Originally Posted by Jonsims

Just because something is illegal it does not mean it is wrong.

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Very true, but also a real can of worms. Case-in-point ... marijuana debate in the USA these days.

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Originally Posted by Jonsims

Countries overseas should now be imposing 100% tax and duty on china exports as china has been a member of the WTO for a long time now. That China imposes these stupid taxes and duties on imported vehicles is disgusting.

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You have a good point here, and I've heard that some foreign motorcycle manufacturers are trying to pursue this.

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Originally Posted by euphonius

More to the point, I'm not sure I understand the deep underlying moral or ethical principle for choosing to ride unlicensed, unregistered or uninsured.

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That pretty much sums it up, IMHO. Riding illegally is a personal choice of which I'm also not sure involves any deep moral/ethical principles. At a minimum, however, everyone should at least recognize the potential consequences of riding illegally.

Little Beijing story ... rider was illegal (no motorcycle driving license & riding an illegal bike). He gets into a serious accident and is hospitalized. The car that hit him was, apparently, completely at fault. The car driver & the car driver's insurance covered his immediate hospital bills.

Zoom ahead until after he was discharged, several weeks later, when the police issued their final report (noting that he was unlicensed, his bike was not road legal, and he was uninsured). The car insurance company is now suing him to recover all of the hospital bills (we're talking MAJOR bills), and the damage to the car, and the "mental anguish" caused to the car driver ... all because the rider was unlicensed and riding an illegal bike. This happened last year and, from what I've heard, there are some problems with him being allowed to leave the country until the matter is settled. More than a can of worms .. more like a pail of snakes.

** EDIT - I should add what ZMC stated earlier:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Seriously you must be some sociopath if you can live with riding someone else's ride.

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Personally, I guess there are moral/ethical principles involved. I'd feel pretty bad riding around on an illegal bike when there is a good chance that it is stolen.

Hi Euphonius

You said .."I understand the deep underlying moral or ethical principle for choosing to ride unlicensed, unregistered or uninsured. Would you do that in your home country?"

I would like to say from MY point of view "YES" i would and did ride ilegal back home yes i did used to speed back home and loads more... but that was "MY" home country and i know the laws and what would happen to me ?? but here in China it is not MY country so i do my best to be legal on all counts ... out of the 20 members in our club "I" am the only one who is fully legal on ALL counts and we have 2 members who are police offices as well who ride bikes so as the old saying goes "Don't do as I do, do as I say" and i say try to be legal on all counts !!

It is fair to say that the shit will hit the fan if you have a "Accident" here in china
and let me tell you "IT IS NOT IF YOU HAVE A ACCIDENT IT IS WHEN !"
because you will at some point its only a matter of time ..... but we are all over 21 so you all make up your own minds what is best for YOU ....

Hmm the rights and wrongs/illegal and legal debate....... I have some sympathy in some cases and none in others.

I really hate.........
-Loads of foreigners are riding around on unregistered scooters and motorcycles without ANYTHING at all, no insurance, registration license etc. Most of them have made zero effort to be legal and do what they do because 'other people do it too'. Well that's as bad as the Chinese guy that pulls into the road without looking or bought his license by the back door and has no clue how to drive because 'other people do it too'.
-People with fast powerful bikes with no kind of licensing, registration or insurance and bikes that were actually stolen, mostly from Hong Kong. Makes me sick. Be clear though many XJR400s and CB400s plus many others were legally imported and de-plated.

Sometimes though..........

-The city won't issue a license.
-The city won't issue registration.
-The city won't change the name on the registration.
-Your bike from the factory was a POS and needed to rebuilt to make it safe, but hasn't had it's annual inspection because it would fail due to looking 'a bit different'.
-Some 2nd hand bikes have lost the blue book or the person named has left the country or is other wise unknown making more insurance impossible.
-Some bikes are otherwise legal but 'over legal age' and are in good working order.
-The city tries to force a motorcycle that can do 0-60 in 2 seconds to ride down a sidewalk.
-The city police pulled legal plates off legally imported bikes or domestically made larger capacity bikes.
-Many wealthy Chinese including businessmen and bureaucrats love cars and do all that they can to ensure 'cars win' trying to ban every other road user: three wheelers, horses, trucks, motorcycles and the war has just started on ebikes and 'fixie' bicycles. Screw those cars and people trying to use the law to make a sea of conforming idiot cages back to back for miles.....stupidity.

Like the others said, Just know the consequences of the rules you are breaking.

"Little Beijing story ... rider was illegal (no motorcycle driving license & riding an illegal bike). He gets into a serious accident and is hospitalized. The car that hit him was, apparently, completely at fault. The car driver & the car driver's insurance covered his immediate hospital bills.

Zoom ahead until after he was discharged, several weeks later, when the police issued their final report (noting that he was unlicensed, his bike was not road legal, and he was uninsured). The car insurance company is now suing him to recover all of the hospital bills (we're talking MAJOR bills), and the damage to the car, and the "mental anguish" caused to the car driver ... all because the rider was unlicensed and riding an illegal bike. This happened last year and, from what I've heard, there are some problems with him being allowed to leave the country until the matter is settled. More than a can of worms .. more like a pail of snakes."



I love a nice story .... let me tell you one more.. some time back a bike ride was riding his bike nice and slow very carefully when a bike from his right just turn left in front of him the bike rider could not stop could not get out of the way so a accident happen ! the other bike had 2 people on the bike and was hurt ... not bad but was taken away to hospital by ambulance. The police came took pictures and told the bike rider to come to the police staion the next day with all his docs...
So the next day the bike rider took his insurance, bike log book, and his UK DL ... police checked all the docs and then asked do you have a chinese DL no he said does it realy matter he asked ??? no said the police man the bike is legal and you have insurance ok so the police man gave him the police accident report which said 100% not his fault and dont have a chinese DL !! now you need to go to your insurance company which was I.C.P. to sort out the claim for the other people medical bill which was for 10.000 RMB . At the I.C.P office all the Docs was checked again with the police report which said NO CHINESE DL ??? all I.C.P. was cocerned about was the UK DL still "valid" job done people got paid the bike rider got paid 2000 rmb for the damage to his bike every one was happy .. and like most of these little story its all "here say" but my little story is NOT here say as I WAS THE RIDER ON THE BIKE !!!! so was i lucky who knows ...TIC... and this happen in a town which is renowned for being very hard on illegal bikes not my bike was illegal just did not have at the time a legal chinese DL

And some stories do have a happy ending!

Here's another story: I met a friend who had an electric motorcycle. He was riding in the road when a Chinese woman ran out in front of him. He was probably going around 60-70kph, so the woman went flying and had a big gash on her head. Even though his bike was electric and it was the Chinese woman's fault, the police determined his ebike was "too fast" and they made him pay the 30,000+ yuan medical bills. He repaired the ebike, sold it, and now he rides an illegal 150cc. Lesson learned, he tried to be legal but got screwed over anyway!

It really isnt all that hard to avoid the traffic police in Nanjing...I have a Chinese friend who bought a 1000 kuai 125cc scooter and gets around just fine. He can even bribe the school guards with cigarettes to let him on campus. All you have to do is avoid the Xinjiekou area during the day, no problem! As for all this morality bullshit, what a joke... just because other people do it doesn't mean you should blah blah blah!!! This is China. The government pays people to drive around trucks and spray water on the road, explain that morality please. People drive on the wrong side of the road whether in a car or on a bike. People ride/drive without a license both in cars and on bikes. Soooo many people go through red lights, dont use signals, etc etc right in front of the police and the most ive seen them do is blow their whistle. You only get in trouble if you get in an accident or you get caught, so ride safe and dont get caught.

Bottom line: be aware, be safe, be courteous, dont hit anyone, dont get caught, and do whatever you want!

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Bottom line: be aware, be safe, be courteous, dont hit anyone, dont get caught, and do whatever you want!

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Surely the bottom line is be legal on all points? but you are only 21 so I just leave it at that if you don't mine

Nuff said

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Originally Posted by prince666

Surely the bottom line is be legal on all points? but you are only 21 so I just leave it at that if you don't mine

Nuff said

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You are dying of cancer. The only way you can be cured before you die is medicinal marijuana. However, marijuana is illegal where you live. Sorry. You are just another sheep brainwashed by the NWO, so let's just leave it at that and you can continue watching FOX news, eating your weijing, drinking your fluoride, and doing whatever the media convinces you. And, I'm actually 22. Good math!

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Originally Posted by prince666

Surely the bottom line is be legal on all points?

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Says the guy riding a dodgy bike with modded engine...

Ride safe! Pal

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Originally Posted by Pal

Says the guy riding a dodgy bike with modded engine...

Ride safe! Pal

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Only used off-road but my other 5 bikes and 2 cars are all 100% so that is not to bad IMO
would you like to say some more Pal nice to see you are showing a interest in my bikes

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Originally Posted by Bulbazoth

You are dying of cancer. The only way you can be cured before you die is medicinal marijuana. However, marijuana is illegal where you live. Sorry. You are just another sheep brainwashed by the NWO, so let's just leave it at that and you can continue watching FOX news, eating your weijing, drinking your fluoride, and doing whatever the media convinces you. And, I'm actually 22. Good math!

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No fool like a young fool is the saying , The world need more people like you .

Is your name Robert Lindsay (Citizen Smith)

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Originally Posted by prince666

No fool like a young fool is the saying , The world need more people like you .

Is your name Robert Lindsay (Citizen Smith)

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May I ask what you do for a living? Im truly curious about you. Habits and such? I already know you are an alcoholic from your signature...

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Originally Posted by Bulbazoth

May I ask what you do for a living? Im truly curious about you. Habits and such? I already know you are an alcoholic from your signature...

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No you can't and to let you know I don't drink well not alcohol .

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Originally Posted by Bulbazoth

Here's another story: I met a friend who had an electric motorcycle. He was riding in the road when a Chinese woman ran out in front of him. He was probably going around 60-70kph, so the woman went flying and had a big gash on her head. Even though his bike was electric and it was the Chinese woman's fault, the police determined his ebike was "too fast" and they made him pay the 30,000+ yuan medical bills. He repaired the ebike, sold it, and now he rides an illegal 150cc. Lesson learned, he tried to be legal but got screwed over anyway!

It really isnt all that hard to avoid the traffic police in Nanjing...I have a Chinese friend who bought a 1000 kuai 125cc scooter and gets around just fine. He can even bribe the school guards with cigarettes to let him on campus. All you have to do is avoid the Xinjiekou area during the day, no problem! As for all this morality bullshit, what a joke... just because other people do it doesn't mean you should blah blah blah!!! This is China. The government pays people to drive around trucks and spray water on the road, explain that morality please. People drive on the wrong side of the road whether in a car or on a bike. People ride/drive without a license both in cars and on bikes. Soooo many people go through red lights, dont use signals, etc etc right in front of the police and the most ive seen them do is blow their whistle. You only get in trouble if you get in an accident or you get caught, so ride safe and dont get caught.

Bottom line: be aware, be safe, be courteous, dont hit anyone, dont get caught, and do whatever you want!

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In China I have never seen a legally plated electric motorcycle. I'm sure someone has a Zero SR or Brammo something, but mostly they have illegally powerful e-scooters. So a legal ebike or scooter should have a max power of 200w or so which is about the same as when I ride my bicycle when I'm not hungover. Your friend doing 60-70kmh on their ebike was not legal in any way. You see for that speed you need at least 5kw (5000w) of power, meaning he or she should have had registration, insurance and a license. So they were not actually legal at all hence the fine.....Even though it was most likely the pedestrians fault, I agree she was probably not looking. However in China usually the bigger vehicle pays without other evidence (otherwise corruption and 'buy the facts' becomes the reality).

So really this doesn't pay in to your 'do whatever you like' anecdotal theory under closer examination.

Spraying water on the road is supposed to be 'jetting' to clear settled dust and make the road cleaner and safer. I agree it's stupid, why not just use regaular road sweepers? Why the need to lubricate the road surface? What BS. Fact is, they all drive cars with ABS so don't give a shit.

Although I can't disagree with 'ride safe and don't get caught' makes sense! :riding:

However the fact that other people Chinese or foreign ride or drive like retards doesn't give you any legal help. Go a court in any country and say 'but other people all drive/ ride like that!' They'll say: 'so you're pleading guilty?' :confused1: See? It's meaningless. What other people do is utterly irrelevant in a court of law. Only what you did and what the law states.

I'm not trying to be an asshole or be a know-it-all. Just experience and making similar assumptions/mistakes as you in the past.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

In China I have never seen a legally plated electric motorcycle. I'm sure someone has a Zero SR or Brammo something, but mostly they have illegally powerful e-scooters. So a legal ebike or scooter should have a max power of 200w or so which is about the same as when I ride my bicycle when I'm not hungover. Your friend doing 60-70kmh on their ebike was not legal in any way. You see for that speed you need at least 5kw (5000w) of power, meaning he or she should have had registration, insurance and a license. So they were not actually legal at all hence the fine.....Even though it was most likely the pedestrians fault, I agree she was probably not looking. However in China usually the bigger vehicle pays without other evidence (otherwise corruption and 'buy the facts' becomes the reality).

So really this doesn't pat in to your 'do whatever you like' theory at close inspection.

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Actually, the only ebikes under 500w are those that look like crappy bicycles and you can run faster than them. Most of them are 500-1500w. Then there are the M3s like mine that START at 2000w stock. I can reach about 75kph on my 2000w motor and dont even have the tiny bicycle license for mine. I ride past police every day and often run red lights/lane split right in front of them. I dont know what its like where you live, but they havent cared one bit here. I've heard plenty of stories of illegal motors and police. Some accidents and huge bills, some close calls with police stops, and police seeing a laowai face with no plates and waving him through the checkpoint. I think a lot of it is racial profiling. Chinese people are very racist against darker skinned people, but luckily I--as bad as it sounds--have a handsome white face with a big white smile.

Law is nothing but illusion; we are all truly free. Though consequences exist, so act accordingly.

EDIT: actually, I was told all ebike without pedals are technically illegal, so that's like what? 90% of them? what matters is what the police care about, and they are likely not to care unless someone get hurt or their boss is looking over their shoulder.

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Originally Posted by Bulbazoth

Actually, the only ebikes under 500w are those that look like crappy bicycles and you can run faster than them. Most of them are 500-1500w. Then there are the M3s like mine that START at 2000w stock. I can reach about 75kph on my 2000w motor and dont even have the tiny bicycle license for mine. I ride past police every day and often run red lights/lane split right in front of them. I dont know what its like where you live, but they havent cared one bit here. I've heard plenty of stories of illegal motors and police. Some accidents and huge bills, some close calls with police stops, and police seeing a laowai face with no plates and waving him through the checkpoint. I think a lot of it is racial profiling. Chinese people are very racist against darker skinned people, but luckily I--as bad as it sounds--have a handsome white face with a big white smile.

Law is nothing but illusion; we are all truly free. Though consequences exist, so act accordingly.

EDIT: actually, I was told all ebike without pedals are technically illegal, so that's like what? 90% of them? what matters is what the police care about, and they are likely not to care unless someone get hurt or their boss is looking over their shoulder.

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90-100% of ebikes are technically illegal in Shanghai and Beijing. That's because it's enough to make a car driver cry into their noodles or baijiu if they are not getting from A to B quicker than an ebiker or jogger. They'd love to pass a law to break the joggers legs for being alive, but they can't so they concentrate on the ebikers and motorcyclists instead.

In a massive sense I agree with you. The world is nothing but a beautiful blue marble of divine beauty. What right does any humanoid primate from any other region of this vast beautiful planet have to say what you can do or where you can go? I agree completely, but you have to balance that with the silly local laws and the the consequences of breaking them, and what I can suggest as a moderator on this forum people actually do?

Hint: I don't follow all/many of the rules myself. :icon10: But I can/should suggest that they do. :naughty: I see a red light and think 'yield', but 'stop' n.f.w!

Of course ^_^ ^_^

Agreed! :icon10:

However at least suggest the 'legally correct' course of action as the 'right' route to mostly anyone else. But there is always the 'do you want to discuss this over a pint?' option. :icon10: