Zongshen

I would like the BS126-6 MAX with a Yingang 250cc 4-valve double overhead cam.
Can they put some CKD KITS together for that?

It would need some consideration for brakes and tires as well as the electrical.

That bike with a 26hp six speed would be appealing to me…if they can keep the MSRP under $3,000.00 USD and offer a 24 month warranty

All these manufactures need to offer managed services for their offerings, they need to offer turn key solutions linked back to the factory. In this example RACAL should be actually BASHAN PH and liked off the main website, same for the European site, it should be BASHAN EU….

They should all offer webpages that all link into one primary site within one common system. All the specifications and images standardized and also all technical documents and access to parts lists. That’s a matter of CSS and linked data tables. They are objects and the big call is for that of teams of object oriented programmers. They need to put some real knowledge and talent behind the marketing .

It is not uncommon to offer modularity or interoperability in a design, GM mastered it and others followed, the same model with different engines, sets and subsets, the base and what is shared and then what options can be added to that base creates a new set of data.

That is key, it is crucial to being competitive.

A platform for a motorcycle is its frame and engines are or can be interchangeable it is not uncommon and it is wise to offer that to the markets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJH

Buying the CKD kits seems to be in vogue, a good way to get in the market and also create local jobs. Many countries have tiered tariffs that allow discounts in respect of the local value added through domestic assembly , but albeit these are often corrupted by special people in special groups. That raises a questions as to who gets access to the market, the MVDP is like that of a gate keeper. Is it good gate keeper or bad one?

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Mexico's Itallika is a perfect example of the question of who gets access to the market (not sure if they are buying CKD kits or not) as they are, or seem to be, the only Chinese manufacturer available there.

I Don't know about that Qlink is supposed to be selling in Mexico.
http://www.qlinkmotor.com.mx/news.php

so is VENTO
http://www.vento.com/web/pub/mex/default.asp?zone=MEX

it could be that they are just failing at selling in North America in general.

I was thinking of mentioning those two, as well as Pitster Pro, as counterpoints to my own argument. However, like Itallika, I do feel that all three are more or less "branded" bikes rather than imported and distributed in Mexico directly from China via importers/distributors. Itallika has seemingly dominated the market for off-branded bikes in Mexico, and as fairly recent incidents of strong-arming by Coke and Pepsi to its vendors leads me to believe that Itallika is more than coincidently the largest motorcycle brand in Mexico just by chance.

They are selling in Guatemala, Honduras and also Peru, it is difficult to translate their website much of it is graphic image files.

I thought we had free trade with Mexico? I wonder why we cannot get those in the USA? It kind of pisses me off the RT180 is selling in Mexico for $1,555.00 USD

http://www.italika.com.mx/Descargas/...1024-rt180.jpg

They need homologated standards, I am not even sure the standards in Mexico are any different, it may be that only the procedures relating to certificates are. All these are class II and the standards in the USA are not that restricting on under 289cc engines.

We should be able to buy a motorcycle in Mexico and ride them back into the USA, the registration should transfer in the US…the reasons that cannot be done? I am actually covering that exhaustively and have been for some time now. It is a matter of the lack of homologated standards and standard documentation, there is no real reason for the blocks others then diverging bureaucracies.

China should not be offering lower standard for export and they will eventually stop doing that as the markets they feed stop accepting them, then it all gets forced upward.

The entire industry wants one common standard, it would make their job so much easier. it’s the consumers and their collective ignorance, misguided perceptions and overt manipulation into government that prevent such events.

Living here on the US/Mexican border, I see a few Italikas on the US side, but mostly commuters living in Mexico and working in the US. However, I am fairly certain that one could register one in Arizona, as I could have sworn seeing ads in the paper selling them here (there are people who live in the US and consider either side as their home--they get away with having Mexican registered cars for long extended periods of time while living in the US) so the bikes could just be sold to people who frequent both sides of the border.

This could be my next project--finding a 50cc Italika scooter or something like that and seeing if it is possible to register it in AZ. More than likely, if it could be done, AZ would be about the limit for the bike.

They are part of Grupo Salinas…
http://www.gruposalinas.com/contenido.aspx?p=Italikaes

Our Companies - Italika
Italika aims to give access to own transport to most of the Mexican population, allowing it to be more efficient in their daily activities in a comfortable, reliable and fun. Five years after its market launch, Italika is the number one motorcycle in Mexico covering 65% of the market with annual sales exceeding 200,000 units. Italika currently operates in Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Peru and Brazil. It sells over 15 models to meet various needs such as labor, transportation and recreation.
To meet domestic demand and the Latin American market in September 2008 opened its assembly Italika in the State of Mexico, with a production capacity of 300,000 motorcycles annually. It also has cutting-edge logistics systems that allow you to guarantee delivery of spare parts within 72 hours in Mexico. Its service network consists of more than 500 centers with extended hours to ensure the maintenance and parts availability to customers.
Links
Official Site: www.italika.com.mx

They could expand into the USA and they should….they appear to be buying and assembling in Mexico to a capacity of 300,000 units annually.
They could offer the scooters for sure and a few models with larger engines like the 223cc OHC in bikes like this one. That is nothing more then a vertical extension of that model.

http://www.italika.com.mx/imgTemplat...125clasica.jpg

They can then extend horizontally with that engine with other models like the DM150

Clasica 223	DM223
*	DM150
Clasica125	*

http://www.italika.com.mx/imgProduct...to/p-DM150.png

They have this 125cc scooter they offer for $899.00 US, if they have a good support system then those would be accepted into dealership and basically cut out the online vendors.

http://www.italika.com.mx/imgProduct...to/p-XS125.png

Then offering a few other street bikes would also take care of that market niche as well.
Offering a full line of scooters and also a few beginner/commuter bikes, I could see that working.

They also have this scooter with a 175cc 10hp engine for $1,300.00 USD
http://www.italika.com.mx/imgProduct...to/p-WS175.png

If they can offer those at those prices across Mexico then there really is no reason they cannot do the same in the USA for about the same prices.

Here is an example of a 'local' one being sold on the US side of the border, but 50 miles west in El Centro, CA...

http://imperial.craigslist.org/mcy/2884965886.html

However, I am assuming that it is Mexican plated, but I should try to call to see where it is registered.

Motocicletas Italika Signs Distribution Deal with Wal-Mart in Mexico
20/12/2011 | By: Dennis Chung
http://blog.motorcycle.com/wp-conten...gt-500x310.jpg
Mexico’s largest motorcycle manufacturer has reached a new distribution agreement with Wal-Mart to offer its motorcycles and scooters across Mexico.

Motociclestas Italika, which claims a 63% share of the Mexican motorcycle market, will offer its FT150GT motorcycle (pictured above) and its GS150 scooter at 200 Wal-Mart Supercenter locations across Mexico. Italika’s FT110 and FT125 Sport motorcycles and DS150 scooter will also be offered at 500 locations of the Wal-Mart-owned discount chain Bodega Aurrera.

“Our commitment is to offer Italika transportation to more families in Mexico and the rest of Latin America,” says Alberto Tanus, Italika chief executive officer. “We will continue to grow our sales network to expand the benefits of Italika to more consumers.”

Italika also has a distribution deal with select Sam’s Club stores in Mexico, offering models such as its DM150 supermoto, FT150 standard and GTS175 and CS125 scooters.

[Source: Motociclestas Italika]

I cannot find a WMI for Italika….I searched on its name, no results searched on Toluca, which according to their website is the city were they assemble the motorcycle.

I did find that they are hiring though….
http://empleo.trovit.com.mx/italika-toluca

hahah, here are some lined up on a street in Mexico... one of the comment were that it makes it easy for the garbage men to pick them up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVbWAYw5K20

They are just low cost bikes, here is another video typical new owner that has to show you all the basic features.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-u5UnrmgQg
The bikes have a gauge cluster that are a copy of the Suzuki gauges used on the GN250, they have a indicator that is like a string of lights, moves along from left to right as you shift….12345. Its a nice cluster, does not looks as cheap as some and has a decent retro look.

Comment on the video reflect a mixed review. Seems that perception are that the CG125 engines are good…but the larger displacement are not as good? That could be because the only difference is a cylinder displacement and the bigger simple burns up and looses compression, that or the transmission and clutch are overworked with the engines increased hp and torque? Things everybody has or should have figured out by now…the metallurgy is not superior and the tolerance not tight…the cheaper are cheaply made. Some engines may have been internally beefed up and some may only be a bored out copy of a Honda CG125.
Italika is doing pretty good job hiding its suppliers.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...onda/FT125.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...onda/CG125.jpg

I remember that Rato might have been an OEM, at least at some point and at least for their 150cc enduro/motard...maybe not, but I remember Rato's old website touting a connection. Now, they claim that they do business with seveal countries, including Mexico, so I am sure some of their poducts are rebadged as Italika.

I am indifferent to Wal-Mart selling motorcycles, they do have Auto Service Center though and that would or could be linked to supporting them.

My first thought of free standing buildings in out lots of a Wal-Marts having all the models on display and also a service and parts department.

They would very likely get attacked for doing that in the USA…consumer activists groups would and the existing dealer networks for sure would put a giant cross-hair on them.

Most of the offering for Chinese power sports are currently flying under the radar today. A high profile already controversial company like Wal-Mart would very likely be gleefully attacked by many if they entered another market segment in the USA.

Attempting to sell through retail is nothing new, SEARS offered motorcycles for a while under the Allstate brand, they sourced them from European suppliers.



So did Montgomery Wards, they offered Benelli models under the Riverside brand.

I also like the Zanella Sapucai...Honda never realized how many 125cc sales they were missing out on?
http://media04-ak.vivastreet.com/cla...374a2798d99f18

The Sapucia sell for 6,136.00 Argentinean pesos or $1,407.34 Dollars.

http://www.cycles.com.ar/site/img/logo.jpg

I was just thinking, MJH, you had posted a link to an article about Rato coming to the US in North Carolina--probably CKD kits and distribution channel.

http://www.governor.nc.gov/NewsItems...ewsItemID=2256

Yes, I know that we are waaay off topic, but is more interesting than Zongshen!

I do not think that there is an OEM behind Italika, I believe that they are just buying parts from the so many suppliers.

In the beginning joint ventures were set up, in those regions the technology was transferred to regional centers, academic bases, typically provincially centered, designs were set into CAD systems and categorized, indexed and shared.

That is why you see standard engine codes, but there are also standard frames as well. They shared all the designs.

The RT200 model shares much with the LF200, in fact all of those type models almost always have the same instrumentation, also they share common electrical, CDI etc.

Italika is likely sourcing the same way that a Chinese assembling facility does, it sources the parts from the network.

For example I pointed out the Suzuki GN250 gauge design on the FT125, I’ve seen it used on other models as well. There is likely a company that makes those and Italika buys them in volume….they have a parts list for each model and in that they buy as needed to meet production schedules.

Italika designs are all based on what they can buy off the shelve in china. They may or could offer up new designs…then seek a contract to have them manufactured, but why would they if the sharing is still occurring and of course it is. New also requires retooling if it is something totally different, that costs and if exclusive it is economically infeasible or impractical, because the only way to keep the cost down is within the volume sales. So something special or different would cost more, because it take production resources from what could be or actually is justified in high volume.

The Italika and Zanella will win in South America, because they beat the tariffs by assembling domestically. They also can consider actual domestic sources for any parts they believe can be sourced through domestic supplies.

I would like to see an engine plant in the USA supplying all their engines to them, but unfortunately the costs would be too high, but you have to wonder if they are demanding close to 500,000 engines annually? Perhaps a highly automated process could meet the demand?

Here is a possibility? I think it worth looking into…there is obviously demand for the engines.
http://www.truckandenginemanufacturers.org/

I was doing a Google Search to try and find out what was the name of the Engine used in the ZS150 GY-10 and the 150/155cc version of the Cyclone 'Pursuit' ZS125-50 (which usesPZ125)

So I assumed it might be PZ150 and searched for that!

One of the Search Hits was this one:-

Quote:

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Chongqing Zongshen Power Machinery Co.,Ltd.

www.zse.cc/newsdetail.aspx?NewsID=1&CateID=18


13 New Products of Zongshen Motorcycle Engine Passed Appraisal ...
Commission, and the appraised models included YB110, PG/PZ150, W125, Z110 2-in-1.

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So I did a search on www.zse.cc/ website for PG/PZ150

I only found the 125cc Watercooled engineZS156MI(SB125), not the 155cc Version:-

http://img.alibaba.com/img/pb/726/48...temp1_5961.jpg

Quote:

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Type: ZS156MI

Another Name: SB125

Mode: Single Cylinder Four-stroke

water cooling Inclined(15°)

Maximum Power: 8.0kw/8500r/min

Maximum Torque: 9.2N.m/7500r/min
Compression Ratio: 10.5:1

Bore&Stroke: 56.5mm×49.5mm

Displacement: 124.04ml
Ignition: C.D.I

Lubrication: Pressure & Splash

Fuel Consumption: ≤367g/kw.h

Start: Kick & Electric

Clutch: Hand-operated, Wet-Multi-Chip

Gearshift Method: constant mesh/two stage transmission/5speed Gearshift

Net Weight: 30kg

Dimension: 358*350*446

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I read somewhere it was OHC and 4 Valve, but ant find it again?


Only find the 125cc of the Cyclone 'Pursuit' ZS125-50, not the 150/155cc (as used in the Motostar IQ-155Z)

Quote:

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PZ125

http://www.zse.cc/Upload/products/PZ125-11290586331.jpg

Key Product Attributes

Performance and characteristic

The international advanced abnormity combustion chamber design, burning more fully, more powerful, at the same time meet European II emission standards
Professionally designed horizontal large heat sink, built-in cooling duct, to ensure better cooling, powerful.


Re- optimize and design the balancing axle system,professional design for lightweight piston,crank and piston pin,so that engine work more stable , take more comfortable and safety to the customer.


The professional design for strengthen clutch spring, improve the clutch smooth engagement and sensitivity, to ensure a smooth and fast start.

http://www.zse.cc/Upload/products/PZ...1290536794.jpg
http://www.zse.cc/Upload/products/PZ...1290649785.jpg

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Anyone aware that Zongshen have developed a 500cc Diesel Engine - DSW500 for use in ATV (but could perhaps be adapted to Motorcycle use)?

http://www.zse.cc/productsdetail.asp...&ProductsID=31

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/...58AA8E69CB.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/...5173745674.jpg
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1334406781

Engine model	ZS500-E
Engine name	DSW500
Engine type	Single cylinder,4-stroke, air-cooling, camshaft upwards
Displacement (ml)	493.8
Dimension (mm×mm×mm)	756×431×414
Net weight(kg)	80
Max. power (kw/r/min)	10.0/3800
Max. torque (N.m/r/min)	28.0/2500—3000
Compression ratio	21:1
Bore and stroke(mm×mm)	86×85
Ignition method	compression-ignition
Lubrication method	Pressure and Splash
Min. fuel consumption (g/Kw.h)	≤280
Starting method	Electric
Clutch method	Manual dry single-Plate clutch
Gearshift method	Constant mesh, three stage transmission ,5-speed Gearshift

Power of 10kW is not too impressive for 500cc engine, BUT 28 Nm of Torque from 1,500 - 3,300 rpm (Peak of nearly 30 Nm @ 2,300 rpm WOW!

Sure plenty of Motorcyles produce > 30 Nm, but these will inevitably be, race tuned, or >500cc, and peak Torque will be at higher rpm most likely. Max Power may only be 10kW but it occurs @ just 3,800 rpm.

This DSW500 engine should be good at pulling loads, climbing hills and give fantastic fuel ecconomy(and might run of used cooking oil - filtered SVO like some Diesel Car engine conversions)

Good for a little tractor….not sure but I think that the oil of preference in Asia is Sesame and Peanut and are not that cheap and not that plentiful.


But using it as fuel might offer or prevent it from being reused in cooking.

David R. Whittall's Videos

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJH

Good for a little tractor….not sure but I think that the oil of preference in Asia is Sesame and Peanut and are not that cheap and not that plentiful.

...

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Diesel Fuel was Php11 / liter when I first came to live in Cebu, Philippines in May 2001

Now it is up to Php50.2 per liter, but Gas Prices are higher - Caltex Gold P60.23 / Silver P59.69

In some cases it is possible to 'switch' to using filtered used cooking oil (SVO Straight Vegetable Oil).

A British guy who was a Member of my Cebu_BritClub Yahoo Group, developed the 'Greasol' conversion Kit for cars in the UK.
He said he used to get used Vegetable oil from Chinese Restaurants for FREE, and said they changed their oil more frequently than 'Fish & Chip Shops'! (In UK not allowed to pour oil down the drain, you have to take it to special collection places to be properly disposed of /re-processed - that costs time or money

See the following:-

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_fuel
• http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
• http://www.vegoilmotoring.com/eng/mixing-diesel-svo
  
  

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJH

The XR200 has an MSRP in the Philippines of 137,900.00 Peso ($3,225.00 USD)
http://www.hondaph.com/showcase/xr-200

The Honda website has the XR200 engine as a 4 - Stroke OHV Air Cooled, however the image is of a OHC engine?

http://www.hondaph.com/img/uploads/XR200_-_Red.jpg

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MJH,

Can I ask you please, why you seem so sure that the engine featured on the Honda Philippines website is OHC rather than OHV?

If you could see the other side of the engine, the presence of a 'Cam Chain' and a 'Cam Chain Adjuster', would confirm it is 'OHC' not 'OHV'.

Certainly the presence of Tappet Covers is no proof as these are present on OHV engines using 'Push Rods' to operate the Tappets. On OHC engines where the Cam actuates the Tappet movement, there will be Tappet Covers to allow Tappet Adjustment


So what is this Honda XR200 engine - 'OHV' or 'OHC'?

Attachment 8082

Well it is a Photo from an owner of a Honda XR200, bought in the Philippines!

To me, they look the same (from the right hand side view at least)?

This suggests that Honda are showing a photo of the XR200 engine, which is the same as the XR200 engine being SOLD, in the Philippines, which they say is 'OHV', not 'OHC'.

Are the Specifications correct for an OHV XR200?



They both have Over Head Valves (OHV) actually! It is how these 'Overhead Valves' are actuated, that is the difference!

There are 4 x Different Engine Designs:-

1. OHV engine design (Push-Rods actuate Rocker Arms and Tappets the Valves)
2. OHC or SOHC engine (Over Head Cam actuates the Rocker Arms and Tappets the Valves)
3. OHC or SOHC engine (Over Head Cam actuates Valve directly)
4. DOHC or Twin Cam engine (OHC actuates Inlet Valves, another OHC actuates Outlet Valves)

(1) and (2) both use pivoting Rocker Arms to actuate the Valve via Tappet Adjustment Screw (Easy Maintenance, but lower max RPM).
Better optimized port configurations made possible with overhead camshaft designs. With no intrusive push-rods the overhead camshaft cylinder head design can use straighter ports of more advantageous cross section and length. The Power Gain may be worth the added complexity of driving the OHC.

(3) and (4) have the advantage of Higher RPM and better porting to produce more Power than OHV engines, especially DOHC, since wider angle between Inlet and Exhaust can be accommodated. Multiple Valves designs are also possible


See http://www.samarins.com/glossary/dohc.html for animated illustration of (1), (3) and (4)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Britster

MJH,

Can I ask you please, why you seem so sure that the engine featured on the Honda Philippines website is OHC rather than OHV?

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because it is.