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998S, do you think it would be possible or abvisable for someone to put like a Kawasaki KLR600 carb or something similar on one of these?
I love many things about China, but companies liike Jialing aren't one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by td_ref
I agree with Eric completely. There is this concept of "calibration" which seems to be missing in most of us and Jialing factory totally. There is this "intelligent" thing called ECU, which can't be treated like the good old carburetor, which is predicable and in the open. The worst that can happen to a carburetor is the need to rebuild it, which is pretty much an operation of cleaning it. ECU, on the other hand, is a set of programs which applies logic to a set of sensor readings. It can even adapt to different conditions and tune its handling of readings based on past history. In other word, given the same set of readings it may not work the same way. Computer logic is a powerful thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 998S
Replacing a suspected faulty part by a new part, even believed to be of "better quality", does not necessarily result in better performance, as the new part needs to work with the rest of the sensor combo and ECU, which might have adapted to the old part. A calibration step must be carried out before all the parts, including ECU, can work as an integrated whole. We must drill this into our mind. I have learned this hard way first hand. My bike has been subjected to various "improvements" and frequently gotten worse.
Jialing is the key to the resolution of this problem. We must have access to the ECU logic in order to solve fundamentally an ECU problem (This is such a self-evident point that we all seem to miss sometimes.) All else are just beating the bushes, which can and will make things worse.
I'd suggest we all follow the steps Jialing laid out for us, through reps like LZD, and eventually get to prove to them that without ECU there will be no resolution. This can be a long process but I see no alternative. I'd also like to mention that I believe, after many conversations with LZD, that Jialing has the sincere desire to resolve this, but without the necessary skill unfortunately. They need to work with Bosch to get this thing done. If the magic trick of disconnecting the Camshaft position sensor is not completely satisfactory, Jialing has a few more things for us to try, perhaps to be conducted by a Jialing factory technician from CQ. After that the only thing left, which hopefully will be self evident even to Jialing, is to get into the ECU.
For now, do what Jialing prescribes, one thing at a time, until the list of things exhausts itself and ECU modification becomes the only option remaining. Don't take too many initiatives on our own unless they can be backtracked.
Cheers!
Dear Milton,
Yours is the voice of reason. You have every right to be frustrated, given the unpredictability of your JH600. You and many others. It may be that Jialing will ultimately fail us, that it will lack the ability to organize its substantial resources and clout for the benefit of its own customers and their safety. But the truth is that we have yet to really push this agenda with Jialing in a concerted way. We've had scattershot approaches, mainly via two service reps -- LZD in Shanghai and ZHT in Beijing -- neither of which as the necessary knowledge of EFI, and without any organized direct approach.
I and others have put LZD under intense pressure to speak for us all as a group (lawyers would call this a class, as in "class-action lawsuit"), but I don't know if LZD is even reaching the right people at Jialing. He talks to the sales support team, who tell him, "Sorry, these are questions for technical support; we'll pass your concerns to them." In other words, we'll pass the buck. No accountability. More pressure will probably be necessary.
I can understand owners throwing in the towel, deciding to sell, or to send their bike back to Chongqing. It's not your responsibility to exert pressure on Jialing, but do know that in the Jialing universe these actions exert exactly zero pressure for improvement. These are harmless pinpricks. At a minimum frustrated owners should be joining together and demanding a full refund, with compensation for all losses and pain and suffering. And I am among these frustrated owners because my JH600, though stalling less frequently than some, does stall often and dangerously, and I have to assume that it's only going to get worse.
I wonder what readers of the Jialing JH600 in Brazil thread are thinking about this Jialing JH600 stalling thread?
So I agree and support Milton's approach, but I'd add that we cannot leave things open-ended, especially time frames. Jialing has known about this problem for more than a year, with frequent complaints from many JH600 owners, both privately and publicly in this and other forums, and both in English and Chinese. They cannot say with any honesty that they don't know about the stalling problem and the dangers that it poses to us Jialing customers. So the evidence indicates that they are either not taking our concerns seriously, or don't care, or don't fear any consequences.
There can and will be consequences if they do not address these problems. LZD has been asked to advise Jialing that the end of November is an appropriate deadline for some official response.
cheers
The resolution is actually quite simple ...
1) Take the "problem bikes" back to the factory
2) Analyze
3) Find solution
4) Provide solution
Personally, I have the resources to fix the bikes, but I am not going to do Jialing's job for it. Motorcycling is a recreational pursuit for me - I expect a new bike to operate properly for its intended purpose. I didn't buy a new bike to wrench on it, or acquire a shop full of diagnostic gear to do the factory's job. Over the years, I've acquired many junker and vintage bikes ... with my eyes wide open that I will be wrenching away ... you won't hear a single complaint from me when any of those bikes "break". However, a brand new bike, for me, is ... turn the key, ride away, perform required maintenance.
There seems to be this belief that the new 2011 JH600-A model with the 3.0 ECU is stall-free. Despite me hearing otherwise, let's assume that this is actually the "truth" - that is, the new JH600-A bikes do not stall.
OK ... the obvious questions are:
1) What was changed?
2) Why was it changed?
3) How are older bikes upgraded?
I've been told, time and again, that the pre 2011 bikes cannot be upgraded - what a complete pile of B.S.! Of course they can! Sheesh momma, I can install a whole new engine, tranny, wheels, exhaust, shift levers, mirrors ... whatever the hell I want! What no one seems to want to reveal, however, is what exactly was changed to supposedly make the JH600-A a stall-free bike (although I really doubt that it is).
And Jialing's response of advising owners that these bikes are always kept in tip-top perfect condition, with everything in perfect harmony, and perfectly clean ... come on ... get real. The JH600 is a dual-purpose bike! Their ads show these bikes going through sand, dirt and water. Both of my Jialings are maintained by me to the point of anal-retentiveness ... but I am not going to disassemble each bike after each ride and swab all electrical connections with a Q-Tip dipped in contact cleaner. I already have a vintage 40s Indian that demands that! Hahahaha.
If Jialing REALLY wanted to fix these bikes, it could - easy as pie. If Jialing REALLY wanted to provide customer service, it would work with us to get our pre JH600-A bikes upgraded, but it isn't. Frankly, I suspect that Jialing knows that the JH600-A is also experiencing difficulties. It wouldn't be too cool if they had us upgrade our bikes only to realize the problem is still there.
OK ... /rant ... I feel better now. Kinda
PS: Once again, kudos to Carl et al for providing this website. Anyone else remember the "bad old days" (pre WWW) ... we'd be on our own, each of us thinking we were the ONLY one experiencing problems, and easily subjected to the manufacturer claiming "it is the owner".
Probably most of the JH600-A's still have very low mileage!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
That's what I did, and it still doesn't stall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
Perhaps you can try adding "-A" to JH600 to see if it helps!
Richard, I hear you, and I think no one will disagree on the fact the bikes should run properly in the first place. The disastrous handling on the service only adds to the craziness of the whole situation. I guess you will not be the only one throwing the towel in, sadly.
However, what I was intending to say is that, if any of you want to continue trying to solve this problem, don't push it.
Instead, take a step back, plan your moves:
1. Keep pressure on Jialing by any means.
Motokai is very close to ship his bike there, which I think might not be bad.
But plan it well, otherwise you will be sent away with an other disconnected camshaft sensor, like a boy kicked out given a lollipop...
And be prepared already that Jialing will show you the finger, I honestly think you guys are fighting an uphill battle.
2. Stop shopping around in repair shop after repair shop.
I guess by now, they all have proven that they don't know what they are doing.
Every improvement is just a lucky shot, and most likely at the expense of something else.
Motokaiu told me his engine is stalling less, but is running very hot now.
Drive it like that for 100 km, and you will burn all internals like valves and piston .. is that what you want? End up with a total loss engine?
3. Give the experiment with Milton's bike a bit more time.
By using common sense, I started to calibrate some settings back to where I think they belong, and have made a temporary solution to make the mixture richer.
Yesterday I tweaked the bike a little bit more (After careful reconsideration, and talking with Milton on how the bike behaved last week), and I hope that we are VERY CLOSE to a stall free bike, hot or cold. I will have an other round of a small adjustment for next week, to fine tune.
Even if I can not dial out the stalling completely, I have proven that (with all standard equipment) it can be fixed.
If that is so, it should give all of you guys the confidence that we can solve this, even without Jialing.
Just keep faith, and give Milton and me a bit more time to keep going the scientific way....
Eric
What is Anal-retentiveness? Can you post some pictures of that :lol8: :lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou
Sorry to butt in .. can someone please explain to me why you can't just slap a carburetor on these things? the black box shit in your living room would look nice on a shelf in any living room. then post your story along with pics of ECU shit and other pics of your bike flying somewhere in every bike forum you can find...
screw Jialing ..
man I'm so angry and I don't even have a Jialing bike. ..
Well, because EFI is beautiful, much more accurate then any sophisticated carb ever was.Quote:
Originally Posted by slabo
If set well, it provides a much better starting and cold idle, let the bike pick up at any RPM without hesitation, is much more fuel efficient, and gives more power as it continuously compensates for changing conditions.
On the Jialing, it is just ..... well, you know, Jialing people and policies and so ......
There is not any reason why the package on the Jialing should not work properly if set up well.
Slapping a carb on it is not quite that easy, and in the case of a big bore single, it might actually be better if the engine was designed for dual carbs like the BMW F650. Even if you did source a carb, you would have to spend a huge chunk of time to get the jetting right. Would it fit and work with the existing airbox, or would you have to change that too? Simple things like the throttle and cables might require replacement. Maybe bits of the fuel system, like the fuel pump and petcock would need changing. Then there are the electronics that are designed to perform with an EFI CPU, you would have to figure out a way to get around the programming of things like the exhaust analyzer etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by slabo
On bikes like the QingQi QM250, or the Galaxy XTR, it's rather easy, as these bikes have a previous model that you could learn from and swap parts. The JH600 could be carbed, but I think it would take a lot of work. And then you would have to undo that every other year for inspection and re-registration.
Cheers!
ChinaV