Had an accident

you don't know what you will do until it happens Felix, under stress people behave quite strangely, I have seen grown men I respected for strength cry and wimpy (i thought) teacher types stand up and take on armed men. Thats why debates like this are good. They tend to polarise issues and bring out the emotions so you can address them and clarify things. Indeed, sometimes I find after I have written something, just written it down, it has altered or moderated my own posiiton. Then under stress I behave more calmly because any underlying emotion is already resolved.

I don't ever mind being called out publicly for my statements, I rave on publicly after all. And I am capable of defending my points, they aren't just egotistic spew (to me!). Sometimes it takes a few posts to and for to make me realise something, I don't think i am perfect. Just close.

Changing a few thousand year old culture of so many billion people who don't even talk proper and don't know the craic, well good luck. might take an eon. Easier to let it change you, THAT is my point. You won't turn into a fukkin penguin, you will still be Felix the great and humerous larrikin, just that you will be so much more comfortable and respected. That's how change happens. The stereotypes behave differently and perceptions are altered. Now I have to go and play with my antenna on the roof, and also find out once and for all after 60 yrs whether there is an apostrophe in there's or not.

Felix, I have to agree with you. If someone is OK just leave or get screwed. Why wait for a scratch in someones car that would probably be taken out with T-cut suddenly become a 1000, 2000RMB paint job when their driving caused it?

For Slabo's kind of accident I am still wondering wouldn't it be better to practically force 1000RMB on her and run? Seems callous, but then again being forced to pay 40,000RMB for a broken arm is too.

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Originally Posted by jape

Too much bullshit western arrogance knocking the Chinese is what comes over on here, too often.

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Live here for two years then try and say that.

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Originally Posted by jape

Ex-pat club of cynical westerners who know best and everything they see is wrong, stupid, TIC.

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Because in many cases we do know what’s best (well maybe not best, but at least what’s fair). Please get off your high horse.

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Originally Posted by jape

Then return and appreciate the place called China even if it isn't a suburb of some western town or stay home.

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Again, do you live here like many of us? No. All you do is read Lao Tzu books in your study while claiming that the rest of us have lost touch with reality. The truth is, you have never experienced the Chinese reality.

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Originally Posted by jape

I recognised many many years ago that the Ugly American and the Arrogant Pom were causing a lot of trouble around the world. when I was your age we were jointly napalming half of Asia and setting up Heroin factories to fund it. And in Eire and Northern Ireland where I have spent a LOT of time, UK was never flavour of the month. Your generation is changing that a lot but unconsciously the attitude is still overt to any one sensitive to it. My generation just went in and shot any fucker argued with us or wnated not be enslaved, economically if not literally, aye, in Ireland as well. I just do what I can to pass on my experience, my philosophy and understanding. I don't call it wisdom, that's not for me to say.

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Why are you even referencing this??? This discussion began over a dispute over who was legally accountable for a motorcycle accident!!!!! Jesus. Please stay on topic.

A while ago, I was riding my bicycle, stopped at a traffic light, when a scooter came up behind me - crashed into me - and knocked me down, which caused me to fall over another stopped bicyclist. Never saw him coming, of course.

The young macho scooter guy, with his babe on the back, snarled a few swear words at me in Chinese ... then I stood up with an somewhat angry look on my face, and several inches and kgs on him, and he tried to zoom off, causing his babe to flip off the back.

Naturally, the "judicial crowd" immediately appeared.

One Chinese onlooker with foresight told me to get away, quickly, because I am a foreigner. The penny dropped, and I was gone. No guilt on my part, as the scooter guy was a dork who obviously caused the entire crash, and then caused his babe to slip off when he tried to zoom away.

Yeah, I probably would've been extorted.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

The young macho scooter guy, with his babe on the back, snarled a few swear words at me in Chinese ... then I stood up with an somewhat angry look on my face, and several inches and kgs on him, and he tried to zoom off, causing his babe to flip off the back.

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You didn't at least throw a few Chinese swear words back at him?

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

A while ago, I was riding my bicycle, stopped at a traffic light, when a scooter came up behind me - crashed into me - and knocked me down, which caused me to fall over another stopped bicyclist.

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Yes, you would have been extorted. Good for you for getting out of there asap. I think the trouble that idiot got into from his girlfriend was probably fair recompense for this guy being a dork in the first place. Far as I'm concerned if there's no blood loss or broken bones it's best to just forget about it. I also know that's what most of my Chinese friends would do as well.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

One Chinese onlooker with foresight told me to get away, quickly, because I am a foreigner. The penny dropped, and I was gone. No guilt on my part, as the scooter guy was a dork who obviously caused the entire crash, and then caused his babe to slip off when he tried to zoom away.

Yeah, I probably would've been extorted.

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More importantly, Lao Jia Huo, you kept your cool. With the judicial crowd assembling, had you taken Barry's advice and started cursing or, worse yet, laying a hand on the guy, you'd have guaranteed an extremely hostile situation, and an exponential compounding of your own problems in a situation where your only crime was your presence.

Keep your calm always. Show concern and even contrition, as galling as it might feel at the time. Then make your getaway unless you yourself are unable to do so due to injury. And in that case, callous as it sounds, start making pictures and/or video. Thank god for smart phones.

Anger and aggression by foreigners are NEVER rewarded nor respected in China.

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Originally Posted by euphonius

Anger and aggression by foreigners are NEVER rewarded nor respected in China.

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Rule of thumb, whoever throws the first punch, it's their fault. That applies to Chinese as well. Especially if you were in the south, remember that if they want to start a fight, it will be 4 against 1. That's how they do it here.

4 on 1 would be a nice change; A few of my friends (both Chinese and foreign) have been in situations where it's about 10 or 15 Chinese guys on them.

Lao Jia Hou. I'm glad that you left that situation fairly unscathed. I for one have learned something from you post about what to do in that kind of situation. That scooter guy was quick to curse you while you were on the ground but as soon as he saw your size and expression he just knew he wasn't ready for a one on one. Tried to run away so fast he forgot to take care of his own lady on the back. I'm not saying that all Chinese are that way but I've yet to hear about one that doesn't run away to get their gang on you at the first sign of trouble.

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Originally Posted by slabo

Rule of thumb, whoever throws the first punch, it's their fault. That applies to Chinese as well. Especially if you were in the south, remember that if they want to start a fight, it will be 4 against 1. That's how they do it here.

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If you are talking fault from a liability standpoint, sorry, from experience, have to disagree. Last year I got jumped by a Shandong guy. He threw first punch, it was documented by videocams. I beat him down and he kept getting up to attack me. When he couldn't beat me, he punched my 40kg gf twice. The rule with fights is they take damages from both parties, split by half, and both parties pay damages. I came out with a few cuts, he got 16 stitches. I wound up paying 10k to him for something he started and was clearly self defense for me.

You are right about the multiple attacker scenario though. The guy hired 4 anhui guys to jump me - outside the police station.

But back on topic, aggression from foreigners is seen by locals as an attack towards everyone. I think there is a lot of deep resentment towards foreigners (especially whites) that are vocalized in an instance where it seems the foreigner has done some wrong or "chi-fu" a local, that resentment comes out. They would never say it to your face though. Maybe it's the past history of colonialism/occupation in China. (BTW, have you asked some of the locals how they feel about the earthquake/tsunami in Japan? Some have actually openly expressed happiness).

Anyways, bottom line, we always need to watch ourselves. No need to piss the locals off as the police have the right to revoke visas. Locals, especially the little punks with the funny hair cuts and riding the loud scooters, can easily disappear into another province if they wanted to. Sorry Slabo, I think I strayed from the subject of this thread...

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Originally Posted by jape

As if the western law is so equal and great for all! Justice! Yay! The various constitutions. Yay!. Usually bollox. Fine as an ideal maybe. Try being poor and getting justice. It is what you can buy or what you can influence ALL OVER THE BLOODY WORLD (including Canada). And we have had a couple of hundred years of various systems of justice and legality to work on. Women were chattels not so long ago and couldn't vote. Now they can but still fight for equality. 'Blacks' were second class citizens recently, Now, the immigrants, the poor, the disabled, the less intelligent are still the 'blacks'. Not a perfect system for any of them. China has had what, twenty years? And they do not think or assume as you do anyway. Not their way. Be angry. Fine. Get real too. If it were just 'logic' we would all be wealthy and well-fed and loving and coffee-coloured.

You never jumped a fence? OooRa! You never drove drunk? Wahoo! You perfect? Marry me.

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I'm not sure if this rant was 100% deserved, but I do 100% love the sentiment!

The closer you are to the type of people in power, the " better " the justice system works. That's a truth no matter where you live.

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Originally Posted by Wrangler

When he couldn't beat me, he punched my 40kg gf twice. The rule with fights is they take damages from both parties, split by half, and both parties pay damages. I came out with a few cuts, he got 16 stitches. I wound up paying 10k to him for something he started and was clearly self defense for me.

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Wrangler
He got 10k out of you because you did more damage to him even though he started the fight? If that's true then we should just try to take and deal as little damage as possible and make sure that the other guy threw the first punch.
What about him hitting your gf twice? Did the police just ignore that?

I feel terrible about what happened to you. It sucks that he topped it all off by getting those four guys to jump you outside the police station too. I would have thought that 10k would have been enough for him but most of these guys just have to get the last punch in.:frump:

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Originally Posted by Wrangler

If you are talking fault from a liability standpoint, sorry, from experience, have to disagree. Last year I got jumped by a Shandong guy. He threw first punch, it was documented by videocams. I beat him down and he kept getting up to attack me. When he couldn't beat me, he punched my 40kg gf twice. The rule with fights is they take damages from both parties, split by half, and both parties pay damages. I came out with a few cuts, he got 16 stitches. I wound up paying 10k to him for something he started and was clearly self defense for me.

You are right about the multiple attacker scenario though. The guy hired 4 anhui guys to jump me - outside the police station.

But back on topic, aggression from foreigners is seen by locals as an attack towards everyone. I think there is a lot of deep resentment towards foreigners (especially whites) that are vocalized in an instance where it seems the foreigner has done some wrong or "chi-fu" a local, that resentment comes out. They would never say it to your face though. Maybe it's the past history of colonialism/occupation in China. (BTW, have you asked some of the locals how they feel about the earthquake/tsunami in Japan? Some have actually openly expressed happiness).

Anyways, bottom line, we always need to watch ourselves. No need to piss the locals off as the police have the right to revoke visas. Locals, especially the little punks with the funny hair cuts and riding the loud scooters, can easily disappear into another province if they wanted to. Sorry Slabo, I think I strayed from the subject of this thread...

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I didn't mean it that way. Not everything is resolved according to the law here. I was talking about the general code of conduct, the common agreed upon ethic. The Chinese tradition is to reach a compromise in case of any dispute. If you throw the first punch, it means you did not try to compromise. A bystander who has no idea why you two started fighting, will see you throw the first punch, and immediately you're in the wrong. Most of the times it's counter intuitive to us, we have something called self-defense, among other honorable reasons. That's the theory anyway, most of the time, the law is the mob, the mob is the law.

Soberpete, yes the police just ignored it. She had a swollen face but nothing permanent so the police ignored it.

Slabo, you are right about Chinese tradition reaching compromise. It's amazing how in negotiations everything is about you give a little, I give a little. In western society it's about this is the "fair" price or this is my list price. Either pay it or not.

I have faced the mob mentality too. I own a store, who my gf (the one got punched) was hit in the face again by a mentally deranged customer who started throwing a fit at the store over a disagreement with my sales girl. The person sat in the middle of the doorway blocking foot traffic and screaming that the store sales people hit her. A mob started forming around her shouting at our store people how we shouldn't abuse our customers (though none of the mob people were actually our customers and no one in the store touched her). Very funny... I just realized why the chinese government rules with an iron fist in a velvet glove and are so nervous about the jaz-min revolution happening here. Can you imagine a mob of 1 billion people uprising?

Ha, I've strayed again. Keep us posted on your situation Slabo. Best to you!

Be careful mentioning flowers here, its a small forum, but we've heard stories about people going away to unknown places for simply disagreeing with flowers on twitter.

Did I mention Jazz-min? I meant Jizz, man. (Hopefully this will throw them off)

I will have to take back the word we have in Finland angry mobs.

Just want to spout a little more of my bullshit western arrogance and take another shot at the Chinese.

http://www.contactdi.com/2011/news001.jpg

Cheers!
ChinaV

Jape,

Honestly, you need to learn to control that temper of yours. Calling people arrogant, mongrels, pricks, etc. isn't that constructive when holding a conversation. Also, learn how to debate. You resort to over generalized romanticisms of an Eastern Orient that really doesn't exist in China. Again, this whole thread is dedicated to how Slabo was forced to pay unfair/unjust compensation to a Chinese woman when at most he was only 40% at fault, yet somehow you've managed to run full speed ahead on some unassociated tangent firing your mouth off as you see fit. In spite of your age and life experiences, it seems as though you never gained any wisdom. I'm going to use some foresight and recuse myself from this little chat of ours because you and I are arguing about apples and oranges. Hope my friendly advice proves useful on your future trip out East!

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Just want to spout a little more of my bullshit western arrogance and take another shot at the Chinese.

http://www.contactdi.com/2011/news001.jpg

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That's awesome... I love China's "Civilization Campaigns". I want a T-Shirt to wear around on the subway that says "First Off, Then On" in characters, with a big smiley face. Since I can't ride bikes in China, I'm going to make it my personal mission to get everyone trying to get on a subway car to wait while everyone trying to get off has a chance.

I can imagine Slabo's bike coming in from the left-hand side of the photo. :(

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Originally Posted by CantDecide

I'm going to make it my personal mission to get everyone trying to get on a subway car to wait while everyone trying to get off has a chance.

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Your mission, should you really choose to accept it, will take probably 96,000 years if you can persuade just 37 people a day to do that. Yes, I ran the numbers!

That said, I exercise that mission myself, in my own way. When entering a subway car, I'm the prick who blocks people behind me from crowding in while everyone gets off. Oooh, that steams folks. When exiting, I've been known to use an elbow a bit like a snow plow to clear a path for myself and those behind me. Ooh that steams folks too, and folks behind me don't even realize the windfall they've enjoyed.

But, apart from giving me a useless and probably longevity-reducing adrenaline spike, in the grand scheme of things it accomplishes precisely nothing. Just confirms in people's minds that foreigners are arrogant pricks.

My plan is to just shout loudly "First off, then on!" in chinese... Louder than the attendants who sometimes stand by the trains with loadspeakers saying that...

The problem with my plan is I can't seem to remember the phrase long enough to repeat it.

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Originally Posted by euphonius

Your mission, should you really choose to accept it, will take probably 96,000 years if you can persuade just 37 people a day to do that. Yes, I ran the numbers!

That said, I exercise that mission myself, in my own way. When entering a subway car, I'm the prick who blocks people behind me from crowding in while everyone gets off. Oooh, that steams folks. When exiting, I've been known to use an elbow a bit like a snow plow to clear a path for myself and those behind me. Ooh that steams folks too, and folks behind me don't even realize the windfall they've enjoyed.

But, apart from giving me a useless and probably longevity-reducing adrenaline spike, in the grand scheme of things it accomplishes precisely nothing. Just confirms in people's minds that foreigners are arrogant pricks.

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I do more or less the same, but in China's public transport it's "Push, or get pushed!" So call me an arrogant foreigner because I probably push harder than they do. Some here will say accept their behaviour, your a guest in their country! For example, I am sure their behaviour and attitude is big part of the whole traffic problem.

One of their habits I really hate and isn't very functional either is getting off busses/(subway)trains/elevators/escalators and then stop, preventing other people from being able to get off! Where is the harmony then Jape? This is what I like to call their "I'm the only person in China" behaviour!

Same with places with pedestrians, they never stop on the side to do what ever they need to do always in the middle (that might explain "middle country"). One time about 2 years ago I walked on the sidewalk at Chang an jie and saw a woman standing in the middle of the sidewalk (about 2 car lanes wide) and her son of (probably) at least 8 years old next to her, was taking a :bs: on a newspaper (how civilized)! About 100 meters further is a shopping mall with toilets! Ok maybe he really couldn't hold it anymore but then still "WHY IN THE F***ING MIDDLE?"

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Originally Posted by CantDecide

The problem with my plan is I can't seem to remember the phrase long enough to repeat it.

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Just keep repeating "This is so shabby, shabby, shabby, shabby!!!"

No, I'm just joking ... do NOT say that. A very bad idea.

Good luck with your quest.

By the way, your photography is spectacular! Sigh.

'They' do this, 'they' do that, 'they' dislike foreigners. Just reflect it backwards folks.

'They' can do what they like. That isn't romanticism it is common-sense. China V's pic is funny and apposite but also shows that 'they' have to, will do, wish to, may or may not learn to regulate 'themselves'. Some of you will become part of 'they' sooner or later. But it is your kids will make the changes not your anger or exasperation or my conciliation and coffee-table philosophies so get rootin'.

I used to shoot at 'them'. Some of 'them' shot back. I didn't dislike them, it was funny.

If it is indeed a cultural or racial characteristic that 'they' stop in the middle of your/everyone's path all the time Barry, the harmony is in that 'they' feel free to do it and all do it or so you suggest. You do it, why not, then you will be 'they'. I've tripped over plenty of gawking foreign fuckwits, mostly with fat bellies, fatter arses and a bunch of cameras taking up the road all round the world, all races, all colours and breeds. Seen a few taking a dump too, with or without newspaper and toilets nearby.

I'm taking a week off soon! So be good and enjoy the break from me.

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Originally Posted by euphonius

When entering a subway car, I'm the prick who blocks people behind me from crowding in while everyone gets off. Oooh, that steams folks.

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/Gandalf voice

"You shall not pass!"

/Gandalf voice

When I'm alone I rely on my boots and elbows with the best of them. However, my GF has an innate talent to get on and find us both seats so I let her be the sneaky one while I pretend to be polite and let people push on in front of me. Does wonders for preventing adrenaline from becoming the ruling factor in my rush hour commute.

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When I'm alone I rely on my boots and elbows with the best of them. However, my GF has an innate talent to get on and find us both seats so I let her be the sneaky one while I pretend to be polite and let people push on in front of me. Does wonders for preventing adrenaline from becoming the ruling factor in my rush hour commute.

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Since being in China, my rush-hour commute consists of: Bedroom->Bathroom->Couch. Sometimes with a stop to the kitchen. Luckily I have skype and email with my co-workers, or I would never get my daily dose of adrenaline. :)

China is the way it is. But China also has its own laws. When the law is broken the person who breaks the law gets a broken arm that costs $6000 Australian dollars in compensation from someone that was not at fault, but in reality the broken arm should only cost $45 to fix, that is unfair whether you are Chinese, black, white or green.

Enjoy your holiday, Jape.

Arrogant expat out!:icon10:

Signed the settlement yesterday. The official police report sais we share the responsibility 50/50. The Chinese people around me were all advising me to settle as soon as possible. Also, the operation is dangerous so I also thought it's best to get out while I can, if for some reason there are complications after the surgery. My approach to the situation was not to do anything on my own, to consult as much people as possible before I do anything. The collective desicion of all was: settle ASAP. So that's what I did. The whole thing cost me 40k rmb + 168 rmb to get the bike back from impound... Could have been worse.

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Originally Posted by slabo

The whole thing cost me 40k rmb

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Did insurance cover any of this, or is it all out of pocket?