Shanghai plates - price and advice

Hi bikerdoc,

thanks, those are very useful things I will keep in mind when it comes to the day I buy the bike.... I have to wait until the Shineray X5 series production start .... But I don't want to wait too long as I agree with Euphonius... no matter what I will buy in the end... the price will go up till it collapse one day (eventually ;) ... even for Suzhou plates etc.

Anybody know the actual prices there?

Shanghai = 130 - 140k
Suzhou = ?
Hangzhou = ?

From the limitations, yes, my colleague told me the same, that actually it can be handled all in Shanghai (or at least for his car ;) Only the elevated roads are prohibited in the mornings and evenings. But you aren't allowed with the bike there anyway...

Anybody here in the forum with good experience with an out of town plate for bikes, mean does it work the same way as for cars? One other thing I heard lately... I've heard that with the C-Plate at some Gas Stations you will get no fuel downtown....:confused1: is this true ?

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Originally Posted by Snev313

...I've heard that with the C-Plate at some Gas Stations you will get no fuel downtown....:confused1: is this true ?

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True. But not just for a Shanghai 沪C plate. Same for out of town plates.

cheers!

So guys,

Stats time. I have someone in the business estimating a total of around 4000 沪A plates existing in SH. What's your feel/knowledge about this? And 沪Cs ? Anyone has any reliable source?

Cheers

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Originally Posted by vale46

So guys,

Stats time. I have someone in the business estimating a total of around 4000 沪A plates existing in SH. What's your feel/knowledge about this? And 沪Cs ? Anyone has any reliable source?

Cheers

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Interesting point... but...

TIC! best to replace that word with guestimating.

To be precise, have your friend point you, then the collective readership at MCM to the source of those figures.

Not getting at you, but when people tell me about stats in China, I kind of roll the eyes a little, since I work in a professional field, highly involved in statistical analysis and research. There's plenty to consider when looking at a set of numbers. I've seen and heard plenty of the stats being bandied about in all kinds of context here in China over the years, and have learnt to take most of them with a "grain of salt" since few have been anywhere near accurate or reflective of what the stats are meant to have measured.

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Originally Posted by vale46

Anyone has any reliable source?

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oldie but a goldie... read old news below....

Shanghai Restricts Motorcycles
Police chiefs in Shanghai have put the brakes on motorcycles using major roads in a traffic order which took effect Tuesday.
The ban will affect 789,000 motorcycles in the city, including 149,000 that are being used without licenses. Police revealed riders will be forbidden on some roads within the Inner Ring Road, three areas in Pudong New Area, and some areas bordering neighboring provinces.


They stressed the measure would meet the requirements stated in the city's urban transportation white paper issued last month.


The paper highlighted the development of public transport as a major solution to Shanghai's future traffic needs.


It stated that motorcycles should be banned from major roads in the city center, and the overall number using roads in the financial hub should be reduced over several years.


The move was similar to Beijing's restrictions on the running and administration of motorcycles. As early as 1984, the police stopped issuing new licensees to motorcycle drivers, said an official with the Beijing Public Security Bureau of Traffic Administration.


In 2000, the bureau adopted a new regulation that forbade motor tricycles with licensees from running on roads in the downtown area and the eight nearby suburb districts.


Zhu Yinglei, deputy director of Shanghai Public Security Bureau, said: "The ban on motorcycles is designed to achieve a higher efficiency of the city's transport network in line with the white paper."


Motorcycles form 55 percent of the total number of vehicles in the city.


But research has found that motorcycles shoulder just 2.1 percent of the total daily transportation load.


The rise in the number of the motorcycles is also posing a headache to civic leaders. In 1997, only 40,000 were in use in the city.


"The surge in the number the motorcycles over the past five years has posed a threat to the city's traffic," Zhu said.


Last year, motorcycles caused 2,265 traffic accidents, accounting for 5.38 percent the total accidents in the city. A total of 237 people died in accidents caused by motorcycles, around 15.77 percent of the death toll on roads.


"Robbers on motorcycles also attacked pedestrians and other cyclists from time to time," Zhu added.


To achieve the goal of reducing the number of motorcycles in use, police said some cyclists may be allowed to change their motorcycle plates into private car plates free of charge.


"But considering different people's purchasing power, the exchange of plates is still under discussion," Zhu added.


(China Daily July 31, 2002)

11 year old news, that's great. Do they not have this 5 year plans?

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Originally Posted by Snev313

Suzhou = ?
Hangzhou = ?

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S & H issue legal bike plates again?

Hangzhou; No.
Suzhou; it depends. HD Suzhou have a special arrangement for any HD's they sell there. Anybody else, they're on their own.

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

Suzhou; it depends. HD Suzhou have a special arrangement for any HD's they sell there. Anybody else, they're on their own.

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your talking legit / legal all access (Suzhou City) plates, not the dodgy Jiangsu "H" plates....

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

Suzhou; it depends. HD Suzhou have a special arrangement for any HD's they sell there.

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Originally Posted by TB-Racing

your talking legit / legal all access (Suzhou City) plates, not the dodgy Jiangsu "H" plates....

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now, my EU mate living in Suzhou (not on MCM) and working at SIP had his secretary call up HD Suzhou for registration after a new HD bike purchase from HD Suzhou and gets very funny excuses.
whats the deal, any first hand experience or direct contact person at the HD Suzhou dealership (via PM welcome as well) who is able to shed some light onto the legal options with Suzhou plates and rego (Suzhou City all access).

TB-R, PM sent...

Shanghai to cut car plate stock to 9,000


2013-5-15 | NEWSPAPER EDITION Shanghai Daily
________________________________


SHANGHAI will reduce the supply of car plates to 9,000 and lower a price ceiling designed to curb soaring plate prices to 79,900 yuan (US$13,098) at this month's auction, authorities said yesterday.


The cut marked a reverse from last month when the quota was raised to 11,000 from 9,000 in response to rising demand in conjunction with the Shanghai auto show and the May Day holiday travel period.


The city government will trim the number of car plates by 2,000 at the auction set for May 25.


Meanwhile, the government will cut the price ceiling to 79,900 yuan from 83,600 yuan in April and bids exceeding the price would be rejected by the online auction system in the first round of bidding.


The upper price limit this month is the weighted average price of the average successful bids in the four months from December 2012 to March 2013. The price ceiling for June will be the weighted average price of the average successful bids in the five months from November 2012 to March 2013, according to the authorities.


Based on the evaluation of the results from the April trial, the city government will continue to implement price ceiling before a new auction scheme is launched in the second half of the year, authorities said.


Car plate prices in Shanghai fell for the first time in 10 months to 84,100 yuan in April after the city government set a price ceiling for the first time at last month's auction.

OK, let's get this right: they are reducing the number of car plates being issued at auction per month, thus increasing their value, yet also capping the bids at 79,900 rmb. I guess this means that everyone will bid 79,900 and the authorities will use some random means (thick red packets?) to determine which bidders get the precious plates. What worries me is that this could be what's driving bike plate prices higher. If somebody is desperate for a car plate, and money is not an object, they will turn to the ONLY OTHER LEGAL SOURCE of plates -- motorcycles. Unless the rules have changed, you can transfer a bike plate over to a car, but you cannot transfer a car plate over to a bike. Thus each time someone transfers a bike plate to a car, the absolute pool of available bike plates drops by one, making them even scarcer -- and driving prices up further. And because bike plates are not issued and traded at auction like car plates, but rather trade through private agents, there is no government authority that is involved in even attempting to control price increases.

I'm glad Shanghai is restricting vehicle numbers, which should be adopted as a model for all of China. But the devil is in the details, and these methods they are using are inherently unfair, short-sighted and inviting of corruption. Then again, TIC.

cheers
Euphonius

I'm with you Euphonius, as I read the post TB-Racing made above yours, last night. I rolled my eyes, at the logical (free) methodology applied. Just another TIC moment. It would be interesting to know if any potential plate bidder who unsure of their chances with their agent, takes the alternative route to secure a bike plate with the sole purpose of plate type conversion as you suggest (a point you've made several times in other posts). The real problem lay with many different parts of government both on the local, municipal, district, provincial and centrally having multiple and at times contradictory policies and agendas. Often working in odds and an uncoordinated fashion to one another, sending very mixed messages if one could objectively get to see all the various policies, legislation and the like side-by-side in the one place. Akin to the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

To think of balance, harmony, Yin-Yan (Ying-Yang) & Qi concepts in the same breath with my vision of China (all concepts I learnt via various martial art participation decades ago, as beliefs I held dear as a fundamental philosophical cornerstones underpinning those martial art disciplines) - hypocrisy. My time in PRC has shattered those illusions and long ago too I might add.

Since it's kind of related to the topic, I had been in recent contact with a foreigner selling a near new (he refers to it as new) 650NK a few months old, ~3000km for sale up in SH. No plate though (likely due to the price and supply issues). He has/had all the correct documents, fapiao etc, to get the bike plated. We never got to complete the sale, since his asking price was too high and far more than what I could source a new one for.

A few days ago the seller contacted me, asked if I've a PRC drivers license (yes). Then informs me, he doesn't. oh owh! He was riding in SH, several days ago & stopped by the Police. They confiscated his bike, for him not having a PRC drivers license, and the bike for not having a plate. Roll eyes moment.

Sounds like he needs help, as he doesn't know anyone with a PRC drivers license to assist him get his bike back, and I live too far away.

I'm of two minds. Serves him right, for not being legal - his bed let him lay in it. On the other hand, maybe circumstances conspire against him to make it near on impossible for him to be legal. Notwithstanding that in the latter situation he still had a choice to ride or not. If he needs his saddle time fix, he could of gone to Tian Ma circuit for track days etc.

I also thought riding driving without a license was also punishable with a compulsory short term residency compliments of the local constabulary?

Any takers willing to help? I have his mobile if someone is willing to help the guy out with his sticky dilemma. Otherwise any other words of advice I can pass on his way?

Wow, OK, if anyone -- morons and idiots in particular, to paraphrase TB-Racing -- is still in denial about the very real downsides of riding without legal license, plates and insurance, this tale from bikerdoc should warm your cockles but good. Once again, here's some holier-than-thou expat (I assume) who thinks his foreign face makes him cool and immune to the law. As we boring elders say again and again, how would you feel if a Chinese or other foreign rider showed such contempt for the laws in your own country? (OK, maybe he's from DPRK and didn't know any better.)

As for helping to bail out this moron's bike, I'd be willing to give it a shot -- but not until I return to Shanghai next week. My interest is more intellectual than humanitarian. I'd like to learn more about the legal procedures and precedents that the authorities are using to manage dimwitted scofflaws like our fellow rider here. :asshat:

Cheers
Euphonius

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Originally Posted by euphonius

As we boring elders say again and again, how would you feel if a Chinese or other foreign rider showed such contempt for the laws in your own country?

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Already happening in Vancouver, where lots of rich ML Chinese students are "studying." They are buying supercars, sport bikes, etc and then race around "looking cool." Most of these Chinese drivers are unlicensed (it is a long, "graduated" process to get a DL in Canada). The "locals" are getting pissed off, to say the least, and there have been several altercations between the Chinese students and the "boys from the burbs" (aka Surrey rednecks in Ram Powerwagons).

I have been "reading" (using Google Chrome translate) a few of the large Chinese MC forums in Beijing. There is a notable, and growing anti-foreigner sentiment coming through ... R9 riders on the ring roads, running lights, etc., with no helmet, etc., ... and obviously a foreigner. Lots of resentment towards foreigners who act like little emperors/empresses.

"morons" "idiots" "dimwitted scofflaws" ... I, being but one boring elder, prefer "f'n shithead" as the appropriate moniker. I'm retired - I don't have to watch my language any more.

Get Off My Lawn!
:wheelchair:

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

I also thought riding driving without a license was also punishable with a compulsory short term residency compliments of the local constabulary?

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They might get him into detention later as the detention houses might be full and over crowded. There is this clever & smart individual from Denmark that got caught in Shanghai (Hongqiao Area) with his motor-vehicle earlier this year, tried to bribe his way out with 5000RMB cash and got thrown right away into the Qingpu detention house, released after 10 days and was told to report back three days later to start his 10 day detention for trying to bribe a police officer as the first detention session was for operating a motor-vehicle without the proper license, serves them right in my opinion.... oh, yes they confiscated his passport to make sure he came back for another holiday in the detention house.....

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

Otherwise any other words of advice I can pass on his way?

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He is a serious candidate for the clown - moron - idiot foreigner award of the year, voting will be done in December 2013.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

Already happening in Vancouver, where lots of rich ML Chinese students are "studying." They are buying supercars, sport bikes, etc and then race around "looking cool." Most of these Chinese drivers are unlicensed (it is a long, "graduated" process to get a DL in Canada).

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Not only in Canada, but also in Euph's own backgarden Caifornia.
My friend is there for some family stuff, and shares a rental car with some Chinese.

None of them have transfered their Chinese DL to a USA one, or whatever the procedure is to be allowed to drive there. Asked about it, they just laughed it off...

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Originally Posted by 998S

None of them have transfered their Chinese DL to a USA one, or whatever the procedure is to be allowed to drive there

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No need to transfer, no cryptic procedures. Any valid driver's license from around the world is acceptable in the U.S. as long as it can be read by a police officer. Being that the China DL has English and Chinese on it, I'm willing to bet 99% of the LEO's out there wouldn't care if you had an IDP or not. Motor vehicle laws can vary from state to state, but in the case of your friend in California.

According to the California Vehicle Code

12502. (a) The following persons may operate a motor vehicle in this state without obtaining a driver's license under this code:
(1) A nonresident over the age of 18 years having in his or her immediate possession a valid driver's license issued by a foreign jurisdiction of which he or she is a resident, except as provided in Section 12505...

12503. A nonresident over the age of 18 years whose home state or country does not require the licensing of drivers may operate a foreign vehicle owned by him for not to exceed 30 days without obtaining a license under this code...

12505. (a) (1) For purposes of this division only and notwithstanding Section 516, residency shall be determined as a person's state of domicile. "State of domicile" means the state where a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and principal residence and to which he or she has manifested the intention of returning whenever he or she is absent...

If your drivers license is in English and says what it is and explains what type of vehicle you are allowed to drive you should have no problems. If your drivers license is NOT in English, get an international Drivers Permit:

I understand that we're guests here, and we need to abide by the rules, but it's rather pathetic that China doesn't offer its American guests the same courtesies we afford them. I think if you take a look around most of the world today, it's pretty easy to rent a car and drive on whatever license you have. I still get an IDP every year when I go back to America, but I've never had to use it.

Cheers!
ChinaV

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Originally Posted by euphonius

morons and idiots -- moron's -- dimwitted scofflaws :asshat:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

"f'n shithead"

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by TB-Racing

clown - moron - idiot foreigner

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No, I don't state this cause I am a moral preacher, cause I am not.
But is this (repeated over and over again) really all we can contribute to MCM these days?

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Originally Posted by 998S

No, I don't state this cause I am a moral preacher, cause I am not.
But is this (repeated over and over again) really all we can contribute to MCM these days?

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IMHO, it is damn easy to get a DL in China and also damn easy to get a legal bike (agreed, it COULD be expensive, but that is the price of admission). If a person doesn't qualify ... he/she doesn't qualify ... simple. If a person can't afford it ... he/she can't afford it ... simple.

Also IMHO, MCM should be helping new arrivals ... and that includes steering them clear of the risks associated with flaunting the laws in a foreign country, especially a country like China with a still relatively undeveloped legal system. A person CAN very easily be 100% legal. The illegal yokels, with their white faces and big noses, are f'n it up for the rest of us ugly foreigners.

In my case, it isn't a question of morality - it is nothing more than pure, unadulterated selfishness - I want to continue enjoying two wheels.

So yeah, f' 'em ... and get off my lawn, ya little rugrats! (edit - definitely NOT referencing you 998S! You can play on my lawn any time, and I promise I won't turn on the sprinklers)
:icon10::lol8:

PS: OK, I better shut up because I am a Jing'r polluting a SH thread.

In case I am not clear: I don't mean the info or content of this or any other thread, I mean the wording in which it is presented. It just doesn't feel right.

I also notice that attendence by several "old" memebers is zero to nothing.
It might be related as I know they are still around.

Just a thought.

E.

Thx, 998S.... I'd also like to come back to the original topic of this thread.... Any news about SZ or HZ legal plates?

I reckon I try to pass by a retailer today and try my luck asking a lot silly questions.... though my Chinese is not existent, except "ni hao" level... :thumbsup:

Cheers, Snev313

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Originally Posted by Snev313

Thx, 998S.... I'd also like to come back to the original topic of this thread.... Any news about SZ or HZ legal plates?

I reckon I try to pass by a retailer today and try my luck asking a lot silly questions.... though my Chinese is not existent, except "ni hao" level... :thumbsup:

Cheers, Snev313

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If HZ= Hangzhou the city has a motorcycle ban so the traffic police issuing offices within the city area where ban is, do not issue plates for motorcycles. That does not include the outlying areas where plates would be issued. Same as takes place with Ningbo. City has a motorcycle ban so no motorcycle plates issued within the confines of that area, however outside in outlying areas, plates are issued e.g. Zhenhai, Yinzhou, Beilun et al.

If SZ= Suzhou (as opposed to Shenzhen) then only Harely Davidson Suzhou have managed to organise an agreement with the authorities to issue proper Suzhou plates for only HD sold through them. No HD Suzhou will not likley help if one has bought a bike elsewhere even if it is a HD.

Plate prices fall for 2nd month as curbs bite


SHANGHAI DAILY NEWSPAPER
May 26, 2013


Shanghai car plate prices dropped for the second consecutive month at yesterday's auction, as speculation continued to ebb following the implementation of a series of curbing measures.


The average successful bid for a Shanghai car plate fell to 80,803 yuan (US$13,178), down 3,298 yuan from last month, while the lowest price shed 3,200 yuan to 80,700 yuan, according to Shanghai International Commodity Auction Co.


In both cases, that means a more than 10,000 yuan nosedive from two months ago, when the prices exceeded the 90,000 yuan benchmark for the first time.


At that time they had soared 32.5 percent in just three months - more than for the whole of last year.


The reverse of this steep upward trajectory came after the municipal government introduced a price ceiling for the car plate auction.


It also cracked down on speculative second-hand car plate trading, which provides a reference point influencing trends for new plates.


Bids higher than the weighted average price of the average successful price from last December to March were rejected in the first round of yesterday's auction.


The upper limit was set at 79,900 yuan, down 3,700 yuan from the level of April.


"The new bidding policy seems quite effective in preventing overbidding, which was one of the key drivers of previous price hikes," said Eddie Zhang, a car dealer in Shanghai.


He noted that the atmosphere at the auction was less tense than usual.


This month also saw a decrease in the car plate supply, reduced from 11,000 in April to 9,000.


The number of bidders dropped 3,950 to 22,224.


Lynn Wang, a would-be car buyer who has been taking a wait-and-see approach to the auction, said she is thinking of trying her luck in the upcoming months.


"I was planning to get an out-of-town license plate because the local one would cost too much," Wang said.


"But now that the price has dropped in the past two months, I think there's a chance for me to get a bargain this year."


Zhang said though it will take some time to confirm the car plate price downward trend, there is not likely to be a big reverse as the city government is determined to bring the price back to more normal levels.


In March, Vice Mayor Jiang Ping outlined three back-up plans, should existing curbing measures fail to make an impact.


The new policies available for roll-out, if required, include: organizing separate auctions for private and corporate bidders, as the latter are less price-sensitive; reserving new car plates for new cars only; and including second-hand car plate trading in the bidding system for new ones.


The last two measures are intended to make it harder for scalpers to cash in.

City further limits plate prices
SHANGHAI DAILY (2013-5-27)


Shanghai will further lower the price ceiling for license plates, the traffic authority said yesterday.


Next month, the upward limit for the first round of bidding will be set at 77,300 yuan (US$12,607), down 2,600 yuan from this month's maximum, according to Sun Jianping, director of the Shanghai Municipal Transport and Port Authority.


The price ceiling for June will be the weighted average of the average successful bids from last November to March.


The limit at this month's auction was based on the weighted average bids from last December to March.


The new policy was implemented in April. Officials said it was designed to check irrational price hikes.


In the first three months of this year, the price of a license plate soared 32.5 percent and surpassed 90,000 yuan for the first time, sparking many complaints from the public.


Sun said the government is mulling plans to optimize car plate bidding rules by controlling the supply, stabilizing prices, and cracking down on speculation.


Car plate prices dropped for the second consecutive month on Saturday, dropping more than 10,000 yuan from two months ago to 80,803 yuan.


In March, Vice Mayor Jiang Ping outlined three back-up plans should the current ones fail to reverse the upward trajectory in plate prices.

If you want to track what the car plate prices have done historically, here is a Chinese Auction Site table showing monthly prices & stats - (FYI - Site is VERY hard to navigate)

2013 - http://www.alltobid.com/guopai/contents/56/1925.html
2012 - http://www.alltobid.com/guopai/contents/56/1972.html

Went to Harley D. shop on Tuesday to check current motorcycle SH plate price, down from 140 in March to 110K...

Closely follows car plate price.

Anyone knows if SH gvt. stated a target for the car plate price, or if they just want to bring it down indefinitely?

I can't find any websites that track this, but here is what I have gathered generally about the Shanghai Bike Plates (Approx Prices)

Jan 2013 -
A - 140K / C - 22K

Feb 2013
A - 150K / C - 23K

Mar 2013 -
A - 130K / C - 15K

April 2013 -
A - 130K / C - 16K

May 2013 -
A - 110K / C - 18K

June 2013 -
A - 120K / C - 20K