TIC (This is China)

Well, the word is finally out:

Shanghai ranks low, Beijing unsuitable for living: global environmental report

Shanghai is among three Chinese cities at the bottom of a global environment ranking as China suffered its worst air pollution in 52 years in 2013, according to an annual report on world cities released today.

Of the 40 cities covered in the ranking, Shanghai is placed 36th, after Hong Kong (34^th) but before Beijing (40^th), according to the 2014 Blue Book on World Cities compiled by the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences.

The report said severe air pollution has made Beijing unsuitable for living.
Deteriorating environment, poor medical service and a rising crime rate combine to lower the quality of living in the capital city, it added.

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Originally Posted by AndyCCAA

"secondary inorganic aerosols" just means that these particles were created from gaseous substances, either by chemical reaction or by attachment of additional matter. In contrast, primary inorganic aerosols come directly from mechanical or thermical processes - for example dust from construction sites, pm from car engines or industrial furnaces ect.

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The secondary aerosols are what scare me. its a lot of the paint related to construction from what i understand. Add it to the list of items with little/no regulation in China. but at least the bottled water, KFC chicken, and river water in Shanghai are all safe....
On a bright note, the past 6 months have been unusually good air in Beijing. No complaints from me.

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Originally Posted by 998S

Well, the word is finally out:

Shanghai ranks low, Beijing unsuitable for living: global environmental report

Shanghai is among three Chinese cities at the bottom of a global environment ranking as China suffered its worst air pollution in 52 years in 2013, according to an annual report on world cities released today.

Of the 40 cities covered in the ranking, Shanghai is placed 36th, after Hong Kong (34^th) but before Beijing (40^th), according to the 2014 Blue Book on World Cities compiled by the Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences.

The report said severe air pollution has made Beijing unsuitable for living.
Deteriorating environment, poor medical service and a rising crime rate combine to lower the quality of living in the capital city, it added.

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I think being cynical this is all deliberate. New regime, turns blind eye to pollution, but have good monitoring, phase one is make sure all detection is done properly.

Later on come down harder and harder on polluters and clean up the pollution, making the population grateful. They do this because they have no mandate to govern, being unelected. So buying consent on the internet (5 Mao) and being seen to do the right thing in public policy by the population is needed to keep control in the long term. However where I am it was far cleaner and less polluted in 2008-9 so I know they can do much better if they put their mind to it.

Well, I do not believe that this will be solved any time soon.
Yes, there will be a lot more window dressing (the only thing SH comes up with, is yet a new, fancy warning system every couple of months).

The thing is that China lost its economic pace (yes, i also do not believe those figures they produce), and EVERY furhter step against polluters cuts into the little growth they have left.
They should have done this in the last 20 years, now it is too late.
There will be some improvement, but I do not believe that there will be any significant progress to tackle this issue.

I was outside of China for the last 3 months, and it is almost scarry to find out there still is a blue sky, a sunset till the horizon, seawater where you can see rocks 2 meter deep, not alone prices for almost anything cheaper then here in SH.

Funny observation if I may... over here in Thailand the expats here have a similar pseudonym for Thailand as us expats do for PRC...

Thailand = TIT (this is Thailand)
Ch!na = TIC (this is Ch!na)

I humour the expats here though with my throw comment that TITs are useful especially the variety here, TICs on the other hand, not so much, more a pain in the arse...

Right, back to your regular programming...

Becoming more popular:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-flights.html

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Originally Posted by 998S

Well, I do not believe that this will be solved any time soon.
Yes, there will be a lot more window dressing (the only thing SH comes up with, is yet a new, fancy warning system every couple of months).

The thing is that China lost its economic pace (yes, i also do not believe those figures they produce), and EVERY furhter step against polluters cuts into the little growth they have left.
They should have done this in the last 20 years, now it is too late.
There will be some improvement, but I do not believe that there will be any significant progress to tackle this issue.

I was outside of China for the last 3 months, and it is almost scarry to find out there still is a blue sky, a sunset till the horizon, seawater where you can see rocks 2 meter deep, not alone prices for almost anything cheaper then here in SH.

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I am old enough to remember rivers on fire for a week in Ohio and Hazardous air in California and England that rivals what is here in China now. To me the question is if the same culture that can successfully build thousands of miles of bullet train technology will turn the focus to pollution and environmental improvements. If they do, I would not bet against them doing as well or better than the west did at improving.

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Originally Posted by 998S

Well, I do not believe that this will be solved any time soon.
Yes, there will be a lot more window dressing (the only thing SH comes up with, is yet a new, fancy warning system every couple of months).

The thing is that China lost its economic pace (yes, i also do not believe those figures they produce), and EVERY furhter step against polluters cuts into the little growth they have left.
They should have done this in the last 20 years, now it is too late.
There will be some improvement, but I do not believe that there will be any significant progress to tackle this issue.

I was outside of China for the last 3 months, and it is almost scarry to find out there still is a blue sky, a sunset till the horizon, seawater where you can see rocks 2 meter deep, not alone prices for almost anything cheaper then here in SH.

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i agree there are serious problems with China, pollution and possible slow downs in economic growth etc. But seriously the incorrect negative bs I've heard from people who are leaving is beyond a joke. People who have decided to leave often talk about the imminent economic collapse/collapse of the housing market, environmental collapse, dangers from just being a foreigner, collapsing foreign worker job market and so on. Some people telling me that the housing bubble will collapse and I'll be left destitute and the economy will collapse without a doubt tomorrow according to some biased right wing economist as conclusive evidence.

All of these observations have some truth to them, but mostly they are just negative wishful thinking from people who have made a decision to leave and are now rationalising it. That's fine that people have good reasons for leaving, and that their choice is definitely not a mistake, but spreading negativity around to people who want to stay or can't practically leave sucks. It's a bit like selling your car and leaving a turd on the drivers seat. :lol8:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

i agree there are serious problems with China, pollution and possible slow downs in economic growth etc. But seriously the incorrect negative bs I've heard from people who are leaving is beyond a joke. People who have decided to leave often talk about the imminent economic collapse/collapse of the housing market, environmental collapse, dangers from just being a foreigner, collapsing foreign worker job market and so on. Some people telling me that the housing bubble will collapse and I'll be left destitute and the economy will collapse without a doubt tomorrow according to some biased right wing economist as conclusive evidence.

All of these observations have some truth to them, but mostly they are just negative wishful thinking from people who have made a decision to leave and are now rationalising it. That's fine that people have good reasons for leaving, and that their choice is definitely not a mistake, but spreading negativity around to people who want to stay or can't practically leave sucks. It's a bit like selling your car and leaving a turd on the drivers seat. :lol8:

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I am not sure if you quoted me on purpose, or just as an "easy click", so I take the above not too personal.

What I do want to add however is: I don't think that most leaving foreigners need "negative wishful thinking" after their decision is made.
Most of the ones I know have been pondering their decisions carefully, and most of them came to very clear reasons to leave.

We all know that the things China is throwing at us in the last years are huge, generally negative & severe (pollution, food, water, pricing, economic forecast, etc).
Especially for ppl. living > 10 years in China, these negativity does not outweigh the challenges any longer.
Their decision making process seems to be pretty straight forward.

I’m with 998 on this one. Things have definitely changed in Beijing, where a large number of expats reside.

For many of us long-timers, and old-timers, moving involves MUCH more than simply stuffing a backpack and catching the next flight out. It requires a sizable amount of serious reflection, as well as considerable effort to square away matters inside China, and also at the new location.

In my own situation, when I first came to China, I understood very little about what was going on – a completely naïve newbie – a virgin little lamb. Part of that was due to the complete lack of transparency of what is going on here – case in point, air pollution. It has only been the past few years that the severity of it is being properly, and independently, reported. Previously, I knew there was pollution, but I had no idea about the severity. Further, there are now so many food and medicine scandals (perhaps also due to newly founded transparency), that the next new one barely raises an eyebrow (e.g., last week’s report in Beijing about street vendors trapping stray cats for use on the corner BBQ stands). Scandals about extorting good-samaritans abound, because there has become a culture of money-trumps-everything.

There is no way I would ever consider bringing young children here. Not only for health & safety issues, but also because I wouldn’t want their moral development to be tainted by the “me-first” doctrine.

In Beijing, the cost-of-living has become ridiculous. Aside from real estate (I am fortunate, having bought way back when), simply being legal on a motorcycle has risen from 8K rmb in 2010 for plates (which I considered outrageously expensive back then), to 80K today. And buying gear, if even available, and if even genuine, is 2 or 3 times the prices of elsewhere. Restaurant meal prices are insane – 120 rmb for Fish & Chips at a mediocre café? Give me a break.

Conducting business in China has also become bogged down with excessive regulations, and onerously time-consuming waits for approvals. And those approvals are at the whim of bureaucrats with draconian discretion. Further, one doesn’t really have any legal protection, despite what might be written. Other countries are taking note of what expats are saying inside China, and making adjustments to open their doors. It is a competitive global environment for talent and capital.

Over the past few years, I’ve also noticed that it isn’t just expats that are leaving. Many Chinese friends, most of whom used to be country-first automatons (saluting the flag at every opportunity) are saying they have had enough and are looking to leave.

I wish it wasn’t so, because moving is a royal pain in the ass, but the social & economic costs of remaining in China are greatly outweighing the benefits.