JH600 stalling

yeah man, mono-cylinder should never die

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Originally Posted by 998S

Hi Fons.
From everything I have read on this forum, plus what I have tried on one of the bikes, I guess 40% is a incorrect setting of some parameters at the factory, 40% is within the ECU (lean fuel map / spark / error / whatever), and the rest is the vurnability of the total system (decompression valve, bad fuel, dirty fuel filter, bad sparkplug, bad batttery, etc.

It is good to know that you don't have problems, which only confirms my very first saying that such a simple design like a 1-cylinder engine should basically always run as long as it get enough fuel....
I am not sure how succesfull we will be in the next step towards Jialing, but it is good to know you got a problem free bike.
I might call upon you in a later stage.



Milton, the weather is getting warmer by the end of the week. Try to keep track of the air-pressure & -temperature against the stalling.
If you want to make a better base, pass by my place on your way home for 5 min, and I turn the setting screw back, that should give you a stable idle for the rest of the week.

E.

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actually this bike let me remember my 1995 Range Rover classic. it never fails me on the terrain except i rolled it over in the Sahara desert. But it turn me down so many times on the street. always some small problems, like gasket, screw, etc. but if i buy a 4x4 again, it will be still a Landy.
This time, i'm still lucky with my jh600A. it clocks 8800K on the meter. i have no mechanic problem even with factory must be replaced battery.
we had some funny stalling, but soon we realized because we overfilled the tank.
one thing must to say, the factory panniers are sucks. cosmetic stuff. i will replace them until they are 50% broken. they are at 20% status now.

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Originally Posted by marcomagica

Does this means that if I'm ever going to ride to Tibet, my bike (YBR250) will adjust automatically to the new altitude (lesser pressure I suppose) and oxygen concentration?

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Yup, As Milton's observation of the caburated bikes confirms. This is a big advantage of fuel injection.

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Originally Posted by milton

According to Eric, our JH600 might actually enjoy the high altitude better, as the fuel mixture is raised up due to the lower pressure.

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Well, to say it even more correct, the fuel decreases under lower pressure.
But I guess it lowered less then it should, leaving you with a slightly richer mixture then in SH.
It furhter confirms again that the main problem is fuel related.

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Originally Posted by milton

What "air-pressure"? You lost me there.

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Hey Milton - I'm a visual learner. I needed to do some homework after the morning at Eric's with you, Jeff and LZD.
Here's what I found (Honda has great diagrams and explanations of how things work), which ties together the workings of many things discussed here:

An image of a conventional FI system for motorcycles:
http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-te...g/image_01.jpg

Cut model of FI:
http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-te...fi/img/pgm.jpg

http://world.honda.com/motorcycle-te...u-module_1.jpg

I've been following this thread from day1 looking forward for a satisfactory ending. If I were in LJH's shoes, I would also sell the bike. Troubleshooting an ECU is not something an end user should be doing when the manufacturing company is still in business and selling the same bikes. Apparently it's a black box for JL more so than the riders. Which confirms what most expats think about Chinese manufactures: they're just copycats, but do the job badly. It's really sad because the JH600 seemed the only decent do-it all bike in China. And now with C3 seems there are no decent bikes to buy legally in China. Shame really..

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Originally Posted by MotoKai

Honda has great diagrams and explanations of how things work

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Well, technically pretty much as I told you right :icon10: ...

During lunch time, and after the discussion on the barometric conditions, I was trying to think the Chinese way, and why they proposed to disconnect some sensors. I guess they proposed to disconnect the barometric sensor.

If we do so, I think the ECU will go into recovery mode for the signal, and falls back into a pre-set value.
If this pre-set value is higher then the actual pressure (which might be so for safety reasons - lean mixture is much more dangerous for an engine then a rich one), the ECU will add more fuel to the mixture.
This might stop the stalling.

Might be something we can further try.
It will lift the map a bit furhter up, and it might allow me to tune the throttle override a bit back, reducing the negative aspects of it.

Of course this might only work at sea level, drive to Sichuan and your bike will be flooded like an old caburator bike.

Lao Jia Hou + Milton,

your postboxes are full ... cant reach you with copy of a PM...

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Originally Posted by 998S

Lao Jia Hou + Milton,

your postboxes are full ... cant reach you with copy of a PM...

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Ditto Motokai's.

hey fella,
you better not ride a made-in-china bike on the chinese road. so you can avoid all these problems.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Euph, yes your bike was indeed faultless during torrential rain.

Could be a bad batch of leads, coils, EFI, sensor reading wrong, could be EFI itself, a question for a real engineer. Needs a BMW or Bosch engineer from Germany or Austria, I'm sure they'd find the problem in five minutes with the correct apparatus.

If it was my bike I'd try:

1. Make sure I had a Japanese manufactured NGK spark plug of the correct rating and gap measurement.
2. Buy a new internationally known brand battery and long charged it properly before I used it.
3. Change the lead to an NGK.
4. Try running Shell 97 octane.
5. Try changing the fuel filter if possible.
6. Try chevron techron fuel system cleaner or BG 44K
7. Try rewiring electrical system better
8. Try an aftermarket air filter and muffler to see if increased air flow actually helps.

after that I'm stumped, and would clearly be a Jialing company issue.

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Hi Eric,
maybe you could check up my 600A which is built in may 2011. latest ECU. Most important, never stall.
Then you can compare this one with Milton's. I don't know if it helps.

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Originally Posted by 998S

Well, technically pretty much as I told you right :icon10: ...

During lunch time, and after the discussion on the barometric conditions, I was trying to think the Chinese way, and why they proposed to disconnect some sensors. I guess they proposed to disconnect the barometric sensor.

If we do so, I think the ECU will go into recovery mode for the signal, and falls back into a pre-set value.
If this pre-set value is higher then the actual pressure (which might be so for safety reasons - lean mixture is much more dangerous for an engine then a rich one), the ECU will add more fuel to the mixture.
This might stop the stalling.

Might be something we can further try.
It will lift the map a bit furhter up, and it might allow me to tune the throttle override a bit back, reducing the negative aspects of it.

Of course this might only work at sea level, drive to Sichuan and your bike will be flooded like an old caburator bike.

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Originally Posted by fons

Hi Eric,
maybe you could check up my 600A which is built in may 2011. latest ECU. Most important, never stall.
Then you can compare this one with Milton's. I don't know if it helps.

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Hi Fons,

Yes sure, will come back on that offer for sure, thx!

Eric

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Originally Posted by 998S

Lao Jia Hou + Milton, your postboxes are full ... cant reach you with copy of a PM...

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Yeah, sorry ... now fixed (I downloaded/deleted my bike-porn stash)

Anyone willing to sacrifice his JH600 like this!

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Originally Posted by Barry

like this!

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Idiots ... but as you are in Beijing already :-))

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Originally Posted by Barry

Anyone willing to sacrifice his JH600 like this!

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This is what happens when brain is replaced by money :eek2:

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Originally Posted by fons

hey fella,
you better not ride a made-in-china bike on the chinese road. so you can avoid all these problems.

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http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/im...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by ZMC888 http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/im...post-right.png
Euph, yes your bike was indeed faultless during torrential rain.

Could be a bad batch of leads, coils, EFI, sensor reading wrong, could be EFI itself, a question for a real engineer. Needs a BMW or Bosch engineer from Germany or Austria, I'm sure they'd find the problem in five minutes with the correct apparatus.

If it was my bike I'd try:

1. Make sure I had a Japanese manufactured NGK spark plug of the correct rating and gap measurement.
2. Buy a new internationally known brand battery and long charged it properly before I used it.
3. Change the lead to an NGK.
4. Try running Shell 97 octane.
5. Try changing the fuel filter if possible.
6. Try chevron techron fuel system cleaner or BG 44K
7. Try rewiring electrical system better
8. Try an aftermarket air filter and muffler to see if increased air flow actually helps.

after that I'm stumped, and would clearly be a Jialing company issue.

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I don't understand? I already do ride a Chinese bike on a Chinese road! :icon10: Actually mine has less problems because it is based on 40 year old Honda technology. It's when you get Chinese companies trying to do clever stuff like EFI and liquid cooling that you run into problems. :deal: Although the next bike will probably be a Suzuki GW250.

Screw copycat, greedy, defensive, incompetent, abysmal customer service Chinese companies, never again. Nationalistic Chinese bikers hate these bikes too, and that says something! The government gives them the entire market, and yet they still can't get it right, except on all but the smallest capacity and most dated technology.

well, that's what i mean you shouldn't ride any made-in-china bike for your own safety issue.
if we all stop buying these bikes, then possibly they will change a little bit their mentality.
but actually chinese automobile manufacturer can easily catch up the latest tech by merge and acquisition. check out those latest actions. So hen you have fat cash on your hands, nothing is too far. Of course you have to play smartly.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

I don't understand? I already do ride a Chinese bike on a Chinese road! :icon10: Actually mine has less problems because it is based on 40 year old Honda technology. It's when you get Chinese companies trying to do clever stuff like EFI and liquid cooling that you run into problems. :deal: Although the next bike will probably be a Suzuki GW250.

Screw copycat, greedy, defensive, incompetent, abysmal customer service Chinese companies, never again. Nationalistic Chinese bikers hate these bikes too, and that says something! The government gives them the entire market, and yet they still can't get it right, except on all but the smallest capacity and most dated technology.

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Originally Posted by fons

well, that's what i mean you shouldn't ride any made-in-china bike for your own safety issue.
if we all stop buying these bikes, then possibly they will change a little bit their mentality.
but actually chinese automobile manufacturer can easily catch up the latest tech by merge and acquisition. check out those latest actions. So hen you have fat cash on your hands, nothing is too far. Of course you have to play smartly.

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Oh yeah, so true. I worry that they'll never catch up in terms of bikes, only cars, only manufacturing. They'll buy-out all these struggling foreign brands that will become their design car houses and logo suppliers, in this they'll probably succeed just because of their obsessive love of cars. I wonder is it possible to succeed in the bike industry if you don't love bikes and only money? I worry long term they'll fail when the RMB hits it's true value and their exports aren't very competitively priced or very good, then they'll ban all internal combustion bikes when they throw their pacifier out the stroller.

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Screw copycat, greedy, defensive, incompetent, abysmal customer service Chinese companies, never again. Nationalistic Chinese bikers hate these bikes too, and that says something! The government gives them the entire market, and yet they still can't get it right, except on all but the smallest capacity and most dated technology.

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probably because of same experience, I felt high when you said bad words. In fact I learnt a new word - Sinophobia, oops, I said the word, gone too far. But a little wiki says it dated long time ago, even US president say something similar. There is also a book entirely criticize ugly Chinese culture. OK, no need to fuel the hatred, full stop.

Well, if you allow me to go back to topic?

I follow this thread for 5 weeks now, and got more involved in the last 2 weeks.
From my experience with EFI, from what I have seen, from the observations and suggestions by others, plus a bit of actual measuring, I remain with my conclusion that the final cause of the stalls is a lean mixture. This was and is confirmed by measuring the exhaust of 2 bikes.

Of course the lean mixture is only at the end of the total process, and is caused by one or various reasons.
I still suspect that the mapping is set on the leans side to pass the regulations.
However, the ECU is only a part of the system, and in order to be sure that the ECU is the culprit, you must be sure that ALL OTHER equipment (sensors, connections, electric cables, power supply, etc) are fully functioning, calibrated as they need to be, clean and without any other problem.

What I see happening in the last week, is that not only the factory, but also some of you are loosing their patients.
I can understand that it all took too long, that the factory service is non existing, that that that.

But what I miss (and what I surely had done in the case I had a Jialing) is to go back to the basics first.
Clean everything, set every sensor, every switch, everything, according the manual factory settings.
This way, and only this way, you set a proper base, and allow the rest of the testing and trying to be successful.

Instead I see some people rushing from service shop to service shop.
I see service engineers without knowledge, without interest and without passion changing things, exchanging things, re-setting things, disconnection things.
The only result from all that is, that more and more is out of whack, and that any next "repair" is more a lucky shot then anything else.
We can not prevent the factory from acting erratic, but I think some of you might need to take a small step backwards, a deep breath and then just show some patients.

If I had a Jialing, I should have stripped it to the bottom already, just to be sure that the basics are correct.
I should then at least be confident that any further step by step approach was solely based upon the single item changed.
As said, only this way of working makes conclusions valid.

The above is not in any way meant offensive.
I can understand that I am perhaps lucky that I don't have a Jialing, and I can understand that some owners reached the limit. To each its own, no problem at that.
But I am perhaps also the person who can take a bit more distance by not having a bike, and by looking at it from a more technical point of view.

Guys, the winter is coming, give it 4 more months, take a deep breath, go back to the basics, and give it an other try.
I guess you all have learned more about EFI in the last 4 weeks then in your life time before .... imagine where we might be in an other 4 weeks ....
Well I will be in the tropics by then, but that is an other story haha ...

Eric

998S, do you think it would be possible or abvisable for someone to put like a Kawasaki KLR600 carb or something similar on one of these?

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Originally Posted by td_ref

In fact I learnt a new word - Sinophobia, oops, I said the word, gone too far.

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I love many things about China, but companies liike Jialing aren't one of them.

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Originally Posted by 998S

......
Instead I see some people rushing from service shop to service shop.
I see service engineers without knowledge, without interest and without passion changing things, exchanging things, re-setting things, disconnection things.
The only result from all that is, that more and more is out of whack, and that any next "repair" is more a lucky shot then anything else.....

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I agree with Eric completely. There is this concept of "calibration" which seems to be missing in most of us and Jialing factory totally. There is this "intelligent" thing called ECU, which can't be treated like the good old carburetor, which is predicable and in the open. The worst that can happen to a carburetor is the need to rebuild it, which is pretty much an operation of cleaning it. ECU, on the other hand, is a set of programs which applies logic to a set of sensor readings. It can even adapt to different conditions and tune its handling of readings based on past history. In other word, given the same set of readings it may not work the same way. Computer logic is a powerful thing.

Replacing a suspected faulty part by a new part, even believed to be of "better quality", does not necessarily result in better performance, as the new part needs to work with the rest of the sensor combo and ECU, which might have adapted to the old part. A calibration step must be carried out before all the parts, including ECU, can work as an integrated whole. We must drill this into our mind. I have learned this hard way first hand. My bike has been subjected to various "improvements" and frequently gotten worse.

Jialing is the key to the resolution of this problem. We must have access to the ECU logic in order to solve fundamentally an ECU problem (This is such a self-evident point that we all seem to miss sometimes.) All else are just beating the bushes, which can and will make things worse.

I'd suggest we all follow the steps Jialing laid out for us, through reps like LZD, and eventually get to prove to them that without ECU there will be no resolution. This can be a long process but I see no alternative. I'd also like to mention that I believe, after many conversations with LZD, that Jialing has the sincere desire to resolve this, but without the necessary skill unfortunately. They need to work with Bosch to get this thing done. If the magic trick of disconnecting the Camshaft position sensor is not completely satisfactory, Jialing has a few more things for us to try, perhaps to be conducted by a Jialing factory technician from CQ. After that the only thing left, which hopefully will be self evident even to Jialing, is to get into the ECU.

For now, do what Jialing prescribes, one thing at a time, until the list of things exhausts itself and ECU modification becomes the only option remaining. Don't take too many initiatives on our own unless they can be backtracked.

Cheers!

Dear Milton,

Yours is the voice of reason. You have every right to be frustrated, given the unpredictability of your JH600. You and many others. It may be that Jialing will ultimately fail us, that it will lack the ability to organize its substantial resources and clout for the benefit of its own customers and their safety. But the truth is that we have yet to really push this agenda with Jialing in a concerted way. We've had scattershot approaches, mainly via two service reps -- LZD in Shanghai and ZHT in Beijing -- neither of which as the necessary knowledge of EFI, and without any organized direct approach.

I and others have put LZD under intense pressure to speak for us all as a group (lawyers would call this a class, as in "class-action lawsuit"), but I don't know if LZD is even reaching the right people at Jialing. He talks to the sales support team, who tell him, "Sorry, these are questions for technical support; we'll pass your concerns to them." In other words, we'll pass the buck. No accountability. More pressure will probably be necessary.

I can understand owners throwing in the towel, deciding to sell, or to send their bike back to Chongqing. It's not your responsibility to exert pressure on Jialing, but do know that in the Jialing universe these actions exert exactly zero pressure for improvement. These are harmless pinpricks. At a minimum frustrated owners should be joining together and demanding a full refund, with compensation for all losses and pain and suffering. And I am among these frustrated owners because my JH600, though stalling less frequently than some, does stall often and dangerously, and I have to assume that it's only going to get worse.

I wonder what readers of the Jialing JH600 in Brazil thread are thinking about this Jialing JH600 stalling thread?

So I agree and support Milton's approach, but I'd add that we cannot leave things open-ended, especially time frames. Jialing has known about this problem for more than a year, with frequent complaints from many JH600 owners, both privately and publicly in this and other forums, and both in English and Chinese. They cannot say with any honesty that they don't know about the stalling problem and the dangers that it poses to us Jialing customers. So the evidence indicates that they are either not taking our concerns seriously, or don't care, or don't fear any consequences.

There can and will be consequences if they do not address these problems. LZD has been asked to advise Jialing that the end of November is an appropriate deadline for some official response.

cheers

The resolution is actually quite simple ...

1) Take the "problem bikes" back to the factory
2) Analyze
3) Find solution
4) Provide solution

Personally, I have the resources to fix the bikes, but I am not going to do Jialing's job for it. Motorcycling is a recreational pursuit for me - I expect a new bike to operate properly for its intended purpose. I didn't buy a new bike to wrench on it, or acquire a shop full of diagnostic gear to do the factory's job. Over the years, I've acquired many junker and vintage bikes ... with my eyes wide open that I will be wrenching away ... you won't hear a single complaint from me when any of those bikes "break". However, a brand new bike, for me, is ... turn the key, ride away, perform required maintenance.

There seems to be this belief that the new 2011 JH600-A model with the 3.0 ECU is stall-free. Despite me hearing otherwise, let's assume that this is actually the "truth" - that is, the new JH600-A bikes do not stall.

OK ... the obvious questions are:

1) What was changed?
2) Why was it changed?
3) How are older bikes upgraded?

I've been told, time and again, that the pre 2011 bikes cannot be upgraded - what a complete pile of B.S.! Of course they can! Sheesh momma, I can install a whole new engine, tranny, wheels, exhaust, shift levers, mirrors ... whatever the hell I want! What no one seems to want to reveal, however, is what exactly was changed to supposedly make the JH600-A a stall-free bike (although I really doubt that it is).

And Jialing's response of advising owners that these bikes are always kept in tip-top perfect condition, with everything in perfect harmony, and perfectly clean ... come on ... get real. The JH600 is a dual-purpose bike! Their ads show these bikes going through sand, dirt and water. Both of my Jialings are maintained by me to the point of anal-retentiveness ... but I am not going to disassemble each bike after each ride and swab all electrical connections with a Q-Tip dipped in contact cleaner. I already have a vintage 40s Indian that demands that! Hahahaha.

If Jialing REALLY wanted to fix these bikes, it could - easy as pie. If Jialing REALLY wanted to provide customer service, it would work with us to get our pre JH600-A bikes upgraded, but it isn't. Frankly, I suspect that Jialing knows that the JH600-A is also experiencing difficulties. It wouldn't be too cool if they had us upgrade our bikes only to realize the problem is still there.

OK ... /rant ... I feel better now. Kinda

PS: Once again, kudos to Carl et al for providing this website. Anyone else remember the "bad old days" (pre WWW) ... we'd be on our own, each of us thinking we were the ONLY one experiencing problems, and easily subjected to the manufacturer claiming "it is the owner".

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

There seems to be this belief that the new 2011 JH600-A model with the 3.0 ECU is stall-free. Despite me hearing otherwise, let's assume that this is actually the "truth" - that is, the new JH600-A bikes do not stall.

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Probably most of the JH600-A's still have very low mileage!!!

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

The JH600 is a dual-purpose bike! Their ads show these bikes going through sand, dirt and water.

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That's what I did, and it still doesn't stall.

Perhaps you can try adding "-A" to JH600 to see if it helps!

Richard, I hear you, and I think no one will disagree on the fact the bikes should run properly in the first place. The disastrous handling on the service only adds to the craziness of the whole situation. I guess you will not be the only one throwing the towel in, sadly.

However, what I was intending to say is that, if any of you want to continue trying to solve this problem, don't push it.
Instead, take a step back, plan your moves:

1. Keep pressure on Jialing by any means.
Motokai is very close to ship his bike there, which I think might not be bad.
But plan it well, otherwise you will be sent away with an other disconnected camshaft sensor, like a boy kicked out given a lollipop...
And be prepared already that Jialing will show you the finger, I honestly think you guys are fighting an uphill battle.

2. Stop shopping around in repair shop after repair shop.
I guess by now, they all have proven that they don't know what they are doing.
Every improvement is just a lucky shot, and most likely at the expense of something else.
Motokaiu told me his engine is stalling less, but is running very hot now.
Drive it like that for 100 km, and you will burn all internals like valves and piston .. is that what you want? End up with a total loss engine?

3. Give the experiment with Milton's bike a bit more time.
By using common sense, I started to calibrate some settings back to where I think they belong, and have made a temporary solution to make the mixture richer.
Yesterday I tweaked the bike a little bit more (After careful reconsideration, and talking with Milton on how the bike behaved last week), and I hope that we are VERY CLOSE to a stall free bike, hot or cold. I will have an other round of a small adjustment for next week, to fine tune.

Even if I can not dial out the stalling completely, I have proven that (with all standard equipment) it can be fixed.
If that is so, it should give all of you guys the confidence that we can solve this, even without Jialing.

Just keep faith, and give Milton and me a bit more time to keep going the scientific way....

Eric

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

Both of my Jialings are maintained by me to the point of anal-retentiveness ...

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What is Anal-retentiveness? Can you post some pictures of that :lol8: :lol8:

Sorry to butt in .. can someone please explain to me why you can't just slap a carburetor on these things? the black box shit in your living room would look nice on a shelf in any living room. then post your story along with pics of ECU shit and other pics of your bike flying somewhere in every bike forum you can find...

screw Jialing ..

man I'm so angry and I don't even have a Jialing bike. ..

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Originally Posted by slabo

Sorry to butt in .. can someone please explain to me why you can't just slap a carburetor on these things?

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Well, because EFI is beautiful, much more accurate then any sophisticated carb ever was.
If set well, it provides a much better starting and cold idle, let the bike pick up at any RPM without hesitation, is much more fuel efficient, and gives more power as it continuously compensates for changing conditions.

On the Jialing, it is just ..... well, you know, Jialing people and policies and so ......

There is not any reason why the package on the Jialing should not work properly if set up well.

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Originally Posted by slabo

Sorry to butt in .. can someone please explain to me why you can't just slap a carburetor on these things?

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Slapping a carb on it is not quite that easy, and in the case of a big bore single, it might actually be better if the engine was designed for dual carbs like the BMW F650. Even if you did source a carb, you would have to spend a huge chunk of time to get the jetting right. Would it fit and work with the existing airbox, or would you have to change that too? Simple things like the throttle and cables might require replacement. Maybe bits of the fuel system, like the fuel pump and petcock would need changing. Then there are the electronics that are designed to perform with an EFI CPU, you would have to figure out a way to get around the programming of things like the exhaust analyzer etc.

On bikes like the QingQi QM250, or the Galaxy XTR, it's rather easy, as these bikes have a previous model that you could learn from and swap parts. The JH600 could be carbed, but I think it would take a lot of work. And then you would have to undo that every other year for inspection and re-registration.

Cheers!
ChinaV