Two-tier foreign riders in China.

It seems to me that there is a two tier system amongst foreigner motorcycle riders the 'haves' and 'have nots'. The haves are typically people who are paid in overseas currency by big businesses and governments and can afford the massive cost of 'premium' bikes in China. The have nots are typically people who are supporting themselves from the local Chinese economy, many of whom are English teachers.

This isn't a dig at everyone who has money and can afford a decent bike, there is just a minority, who see themselves as VIP elite, and actually look down on others, and who wouldn't even ride with people who have a Chinese bike.

This attitude seems more common around Shanghai than Beijing. It's also a little sad that bikers who are under so much pressure from car loving government policy can't see eye to eye.

Some 'premium bike riders' dismiss every Chinese bike as 'utter crap' when they've never ridden one. Laugh at or deride others who ride small bikes, but don't realize not everyone can register a 'premium bike' where they live, even if they wanted to. They may regard their Chang Jiang, Beemer or Harley as being a great bike, but don't realize that they are not to everyone's taste, and some people enjoy riding lightweight, cheap, fun and easy to repair bikes, not great big heavy machines. Many experienced riders would never want a Harley or 1200GS, but might like a F 800 R for example. Most people who buy new bikes in the west do it on finance or with a bank loan. These are unavailable to foreigners who live in China. Lots of people ride Chinese smaller capacity bikes because they are legal. There are almost no affordable larger capacity bikes in the 2nd hand market that are legally registered.

Bikers should be family, regardless of what they ride. Sounds like someone's been pulling your chain :confused1:.

When motorcycling gets political, I go motorcycling :scooter:. Quite often with English teachers :lol8: . I 've met a lot of the people on MCM, some "Haves" and some "Have Nots", they all seem like good folk to me.

Doesn't matter what the others think, enjoy your ride.

Cheers!
ChinaV

V, was never aimed at you! You are a guy who understands the merits of both premium and a lightweight budget machine.

Nor was this aimed at Andy or anyone else on MCN, I agree all on here are good folk. But some people elsewhere really can be ***holes!

Is the recent posting on HU what made you write this :confused1:

I am with ChinaV on this topic and thank's for excluding us from the a@!*^~e list :thumbsup:

Hmmm... I can seem to remember a day when it took quite some shucking and jiving to get ChinaV on a 200. :icon10: Even better still, I can remember a day when it took me a totally destroyed used Honda AX-1 to get my stoopid ass on a cheap old beaten up 150cc Chinese Nighthawk. :lol8:

I'll never forget that 150cc "piece of crap" for as long as I live. :goodtime:


I read the post on HU and it looks like Butchman is up to it again! He used to be a member on here until one day he mysteriously deleted all his posts and left. Oh well! :jerkoff:

CC

Butchman probably hated having to talk to 'cheapo China charlie English teachers' with 'crappy China bikes'.

Anyway, I hope we can all just be riders.

:goodtime::goodtime::goodtime::goodtime::goodtime:

Age, gender, nationality, income, work, what we ride, these are not relevant. Enjoying the ride is the important thing. The whole' two-tier' thing is a product of Chinese government policy anyway.

Hey ZMC 888 I resemble this remark
"Of course the big fat Chang-Jiang and reconditioned BMW side car club won't let you come on their lard-ass outings, which is also an advantage." Our "Lard-Ass" rides take us hundreds and often thousands of kms away from Beijing.
We don't discriminate against anyone who wants to ride with us, it's the power to weight ratio up in the mountains that does it for us. Same story on the expressways; 3 wheelers are allowed but not 2 wheelers.
Regds,
Jimbo (Lard Ass)
www.bmwsidecar.com



Butchman probably hated having to talk to 'cheapo China charlie English teachers' with 'crappy China bikes'.

Anyway, I hope we can all just be riders.

:goodtime::goodtime::goodtime::goodtime::goodtime:

Age, gender, nationality, income, work, what we ride, these are not relevant. Enjoying the ride is the important thing. The whole' two-tier' thing is a product of Chinese government policy anyway.[/QUOTE]

Jimbo, I was out of line with that comment. Sorry. Removed.

It's really easy to get worked up when people start slamming Chinese bikes for really no good reason ... and I'm usually the first in line to start making noise (and many pages worth of it :lol8:). Ultimately, I end up attributing their attitudes to moto-ignorance or even culutral shovansim in some cases. To be extra-general, I suppose there are two basic types of attitudes when it comes to this topic...

1) The bike makes the man or
2) The man makes the bike

Personally, and I think nearly all of the people on MCM, are of the second type which says it's fundamentally the rider, not the ride. We know people are capable of doing great things with minimal resources IF they have the passion, patience, knowledge and skills to work around shortcomings. From the rattyest rat bikes to the blingingest of bling bikes, probably one of the most important benefits of this attitude is no matter what type of bike you're riding, they're all fun and wonderful in their own way and the "inclusive" nature of their personality makes it easier for them to enjoy whatever comes before them. :scooter:

On the other end of the generalized spectrum, we have the first type of rider where the bike makes the image of the man. Often, to this type of rider, the appearance or statement of who they are is conveyed through the bike. The quality of appearance and the identification with one brand or type may help them to "fulfill" some sort of identity which they passionately defend as vigorously as they would their own lives. So much is tied up in the illusion of who they are, the necessity to keep that appearance air-tight becomes a stressful life-long journey which will eventually leak air. Since their "exclusive" attitude will eventually bring them into one confrontation or another, they live in a world of eggshells and generally are not very adaptive to different environments or situations.

In the end, it takes all kinds. The "exclusive" crowd and their cliques are an extremely important part of the world moto industry because, to a certain extent, they spend stupid amounts of money on their rides and keep the moto-conomy moving. Think about the amount of chromed parts sold to Harley owners in the US every year or the complete catalogs devoted to 1200GS farkles (no offense Andy)! Additionally, these types of riders and their fervor may also be politically active in protecting or developing rider's rights since money talks (as unfortunate as that may be at times).

The "inclusive" crowd, by my guesses, must outnumber the exclusive folks by at least 10,000 to 1. Looking at it in the Western context, this doesn't make sense but if you include the millions upon millions of people who ride bikes for daily transportation around the world, the scales tip in a very different direction. "Appearance" is largely secondary to these riders since affordable, convenient transportation is their primary benefit. These "cheapo" bikes are the foundation of a pyramid for most of the world's manufacturers. The money made and generated from the sales of gas, repair services, parts and accessories to this massive body of humble rides must easily dwarf all the expensive "modern" bikes produced in Europe and Japan. The downside to this utilitarian crowd is they generally don't get much exposure, either policitcally or in the "main-stream" media, and are often under represented. Out of sight, out of mind.

Anywho... no reason for chapped asses fellas. We're all mature enough here to understand and forgive our two-wheeled brothers for our temporary emotional tirades. :taz:

It can, and does, happen to the best of us.

:scooter:
CC

Whilst everything you have said is completely true Carl, some of those most dedicated and proud of their bikes prestigious bikes, are riding bikes that are really inappropriate bikes for the conditions, or of one brand name above all others.

I remember being at a small bike festival in New Zealand, the Ducati riders were the popular leaders and alpha males, where as Suzuki riders were looked down on! Honda and Harley riders being an upper middle class. I was on a 15 year old Honda and was quietly laughed at for having such an old bike, but was mitigated by the bike's classic appeal, and for being a Honda. Couldn't people be discussing riding techniques and places to ride, rather than the status derived or perceived from the bike?

Some Harleys, for example have foot pegs or foot plates so low that if you were to lean over 30 degrees you likely rip them off, and any corner slower than 50kmh being an ungainly waddle. The triumph of image over practicality and 'rideability'. Perhaps on a sunny day with the pack riding on straight roads in So-cal the bike makes sense. But how many Europeans would ride nothing else?

Also whilst not wishing to bash Andy, and others on this forum, a 1200GS is 250KG wet, which is a seriously heavy slab of bike. While it's good for traveling around the world, or very long distances in China, it would seem so many riders don't get far from home on one, such a waste, as they could be having so much fun on a lighter bike.

I rode a Hayabusa the other day (yes in China!), what a stpooid impractical bike in a city! 'Superman' riding position, bike cannot be thrown around corners at and speed, especially below 50kmh, all turns need to be pre-planned long in advance, an absolute chore to ride, yet probably wonderful on a drag strip.

Although there is nothing wrong with enjoying a Chang Jiang, and they certainly suit the conditions of wanting to take a wife and/or child that can't ride, some bike clubs seem to have an exclusive vibe where other Chinese bikes wouldn't be welcome, even though these days Changs build quality seems similar to most other Chinese bikes, and don't tell me that a 125cc bike with a good rider can't keep up. Why so much Chinese national pride around a bike that is a Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a 1930s BMW? My bike is based on a 90's Honda, still a copy bike with dubious quality compared to the originals. Changs are allowed on freeways, which makes them 'better', but how? Would my bike be any less safe on a freeway?

To me it seems motorcycling 'nirvana' is being able to get away from manufacturer's badges and favorite styles, and being able to almost scientifically choose the correct bike for the riding conditions. Possibly take a leaf from cyclists' knowledge. These riders have much less brand loyalty to bike brands, than component brands.

Interesting thread.

I have come across what I term bike ‘snobbery’ (only word I can think of) - the looking down on me because I am riding a Chinese 125 by those on fancy Japanese stuff. I live in North Wales UK, not China. But, the guy’s involved really were d*ck head as**ole types. They occur globally. I mean, if it had been a car or clothing I would have got the same treatment for driving a Kia, rickshaw or not wearing Gucci.

So whatever a thing is and wherever it is, an as**ole is an as**ole is an as**ole.

If I start getting sh*t (rare), I ask how much of their machine was made in China and such a shame they still paid Euro-Japanese prices for it. Never failed to shut ‘em up.

Having said that, I have also had much positive interest from folk looking at my humble £599 eBay bike-in-a-box Chinese machine. Even admiration. Bikers and non-bikers alike.

When I was getting petrol at my local hick garage, a group of five guys with seriously expensive branded kit (bikes and clothing) were waiting for the RAC man as one of them with a new Harley had broken down. They all gave my machine the once over. Three sat on it and I let one have a ride. It was the first Chinese bike they had actually seen and all surprisingly said they were impressed. So much so, one of them (on a Triumph Rocket III no less) went and bought one off eBay for his daughter the next day!

Dean Smitheman, the sales executive at Stratstone Harley-Davidson in Birmingham UK, told me he had bought two Chinese bikes for his kids. Thought they were amazing for the money. No ‘snob-job’ there.

Yet, there is something ‘special’ about a Harley and that ever sooooo coool looking CJ750.

The CJ and Harley appeal to something almost inwardly primeval. I know there are many other bikes that ride and handle better and more suited to indigenous conditions. But, they fail to stir that primitive something or other.

I can understand the clannishness of the owners of these machines. Indeed, it is a clan I intend to belong as soon as I bin my L-plates next year (and make room in the workshop). Got to get all the Marque’s branded clothing as well of course. Gives a greater sense of belonging to the clan and with the clansfolk.

I would fulfil both the two basic types of attitudes (put by CC) when it comes to this topic...

1) The bike makes the man -The CJ and Harley would satisfy something deep within and make me feel gooooood, and
2) The man makes the bike - I will stuff masses of extra chrome and shinny bits all over them. Flash?. Well…er…yeh. :clap:

Now, that would not mean I will be transformed into an as**ole type and start looking down on or belittle bikers with ‘lesser’ machines. But I would not invite them to my CJ/Harley only ride outs. Why is that? It is a Clan. If you want to join the Clan get a CJ/Harley! :thumbsup:



PS. I will still be keeping my Chinese 125. :chinese:

North Wales is beautiful on a dry summers day. Not sure where you live, but knowing the wet weather conditions, maybe dirty rural roads, with lots of twisty bends, having been to Wales many times, my 'scientific' method would suggest that you buy a Triumph Street Triple, BMW G650, Kawasaki ER-6, Ducati 696 Monster or Honda CB600F Hornet. :icon10:

Nothing really wrong with Harleys so long as you try to keep to the usable, less raked out, lighter models, that can take some lean with out grinding bits too much, that would be more scientific:icon10:.

Just never become a snob!

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

North Wales is beautiful on a dry summers day....

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http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...PA_468x409.jpg http://shipbright.files.wordpress.co...ntial-rain.jpg

June, July, August 2007, 2008, 2009...

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

...would suggest that you buy a Triumph Street Triple, BMW G650, Kawasaki ER-6, Ducati 696 Monster or Honda CB600F Hornet....

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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/...59_468x518.jpg http://www.4x4dable.co.uk/uploads/images/skip.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Nothing really wrong with Harleys so long as you try to keep to the usable, less raked out, lighter models, that can take some lean with out grinding bits too much, that would be more scientific

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http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wiDysvqTsJ...ming+Eagle.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wiDysvqTsJ...er+%282%29.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wiDysvqTsJ...er+%281%29.jpg

...puurrrfect...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Just never become a snob!

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http://bookpeopleblog.files.wordpres.../10/snob12.jpg ...I say...were you muttering something or other old boy...or was it the wind...:mwink:

As I am back in Australia now for a couple of months it is interesting to notice the difference between the attitudes and bikes between countries.

On the whole motorcycles are used for transport and business 95% of the time in Xinjiang there are a few who use them for sport.

Most of the time most Chinese don't care what motorcycle they have so long as it does the job.

I notice car ownership in Chinese is total snobbery.Only a European car will do up in Xinjiang a Japanese car is a very distant second and as for Chinese car well.Don't even tell anyone if you own a QQ.

I remember riding the QingQi 200 the dealer was trying to sell me and he talked me into taking it for a test ride thinking that if I rode it I would be hooked.I rode it and man my mini bike from the 70's had more power.

I said no thanks.

I come back to Australia and my mate has bought a black naked hayabusa more upright riding position.200 HP.Beautiful looking bike.

I took it for a ride that thing scared the s*** out me and that was on the mild mapping.I think there would be very few riders who go anywhere near using that bike to anywhere near it's potential but yet the motorcycle manufactures continue to make more bikes with even more power.

For me it is a love of motorcycling and when I get a new bike I can sit and look at it for hours admiring it like a beautiful women.

Unfortunately up until lately all the Chinese motorcycles just don't do it for me so I guess I am a motorcycle snob.:confused1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

...when I get a new bike I can sit and look at it for hours admiring it like a beautiful women.

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Ditto. :thumbsup:

Mind you, some guys can go a tad too far...

http://www.cybersalt.org/images/stor...esleepover.jpg

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

...up until lately all the Chinese motorcycles just don't do it for me so I guess I am a motorcycle snob.

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If a bike (or a woman) fails to give you the 'hots', that certainly does not make you a snob.

Racer style bikes, whoever makes them, just don't do it for me. Nor Japanese cars for that matter. I admire the engineering in both and I certainly don't look down on those folk that have them. It's just that they fail to stir what need to be stirred! Can't help that, right. :icon10:


Interesting you post that EU cars are the 'cool' in Chinaland. Chinese bikes are becoming the new 'cool' in GB. I'm told the 'cult' is also growing in mainland Europe. European Union = Soviet Union Mk2 (I kid you not) and China is red, so it's commie bikes for commie countries. Natch. :naughty:

No worries, I didn't think you were talking about ME!
I also have 3 two-wheeled bikes besides my 2 sidecar rigs. Love them all (well maybe except the Yamaha dirt bike). Reminds me of a friend who was bicycling across the U.S. he rode into a Biker Bar to escape a tornado, and a local chapter of the Hells Angels ( or similar biker club) was there. Silence fell uypon the bar. Then one of the bikers yelled out, "they're cool, they're on two wheels" and everything turned friendly.
Regds,
Jim
www.bmwsidecar.com


Jimbo, I was out of line with that comment. Sorry. Removed.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Jimbosidecar

No worries, I didn't think you were talking about ME!

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Phew!...well I wasn't anyways. However, with stuff this cooool, I could understand it....:lol8:

http://www.uralmotorbikes.info/image...aingblack1.jpg

That rear sear. I mean, sexual or what. Man, I could get me a whole load a chicks with that. :clap: Gladly, these magnificent beasts (bikes not chicks, right) are available in the UK thro' MPC motorcycles. Solo or combo.

Now, when I was in Ibiza for a bit a few years ago there was a German WWII military veteran motorcycle rally where there were combo's with the machine gun on the side car. Just what I need. Can you get replicas of the machine guns ?

Why get a replica? Buy one in the States and get the fully functioning unit on there!:gun_bandana:

:lol8:
CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davidqc

Now, when I was in Ibiza for a bit a few years ago there was a German WWII military veteran motorcycle rally where there were combo's with the machine gun on the side car. Just what I need. Can you get replicas of the machine guns ?

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Well, if you want to see some cool(er) bikes go to www.bmwsidecar.com (shameless self promotion it is)
Regds,
Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by davidqc

Phew!...well I wasn't anyways. However, with stuff this cooool, I could understand it....:lol8:

http://www.uralmotorbikes.info/image...aingblack1.jpg

That rear sear. I mean, sexual or what. Man, I could get me a whole load a chicks with that. :clap: Gladly, these magnificent beasts (bikes not chicks, right) are available in the UK thro' MPC motorcycles. Solo or combo.

Now, when I was in Ibiza for a bit a few years ago there was a German WWII military veteran motorcycle rally where there were combo's with the machine gun on the side car. Just what I need. Can you get replicas of the machine guns ?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Bikers should be family, regardless of what they ride. Sounds like someone's been pulling your chain :confused1:.

When motorcycling gets political, I go motorcycling :scooter:. Quite often with English teachers :lol8: . I 've met a lot of the people on MCM, some "Haves" and some "Have Nots", they all seem like good folk to me.

Doesn't matter what the others think, enjoy your ride.

Cheers!
ChinaV

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+1 on that!

I belong to two BMW clubs here in Colorado, but I also own a couple of Yamaha's and a Ural. There are a few guys in the Beemer gang that turn their nose up at me when I show up for a ride and I'm not astride one of my BMW's.

I am smugly superior though as I know I am twice the rider that those few snobs are.

I don't care if you're riding a moped, if you're on it for fun, travel, and adventure, then you're one of the club. Here's a perfect example:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460631

Cheers,

Dan K.