Anyone know who makes this more Harley than a Harley new Chinese machine and what it's called...?
Attachment 1142
Im told the engine is a 250 version Yama Virago clone, but know't else. Not bad eh! Not bad at all! :naughty:
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Anyone know who makes this more Harley than a Harley new Chinese machine and what it's called...?
Attachment 1142
Im told the engine is a 250 version Yama Virago clone, but know't else. Not bad eh! Not bad at all! :naughty:
The photo is a little too small, and the bike needs to be side-on to give away clues to its origins. But best guessing
From this angle it looks like a modified Regal Raptor DG-350E-6, this is unlikely due to the background being China, and also a if it has a Yamaha Virago V-twin engine.
In fact it is probably genetically closest the Qinagjiang (Qjiang, Keeway Benelli) QJ25O-J:
http://www.qjiang.com.cn/show1_img.asp?id=77
but and updated version of it. It could also be made by a real Yamaha joint venture, or customers of the Qiangjiang Yamaha copy engine.
There are clearly some differences to the Qiangjiang, the red bike appears to be a hard-tail, and have a different seating position, and the brake disk is on the other side.
Looks a lot like a Honda steed 400, a non north American honda model. Common in China.
As for the Virago 250 clones, a few companies have been making them, has dismal reliability records.
Thank you kindly ZMC888 and iamcanlim for your posts. :thumbsup:
The bike appears to be modeled on a Harley 'Iron Horse Slammer Fat Back End'. A specialist custom jobbie, shown here in the showroom of Stratstone HD in Birmingham UK:
Attachment 1185
I'm told that if you have to ask how much these things costs, you can't afford one! :naughty:
Truns out it is a Zongshen 250 V-twin 18hp. From a post by 'Oengus' : http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...ngshen+cyclone
http://www.globalstrong.cn/productshow.asp?id=246
http://www.rhinomotorcycles.com/prestock_flm003.php
I do not know who actually makes it, but they all seem to have the same Zong engine and mikuni carb.
That is more than likely a yamaha engine, made by zongshen
The V-250 shows up on a few bikes,
http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2008models/2008models-Yamaha-V-Star250.htm
I am not sure why the rhinomotorcycle site lights up with virus threats, but it does. It may just want to run some XML software?
But the other site...Global Strong Trading has this 250cc bike that I believe is made by Shineray. I realy like this bike and notice the engine is that the same engine going in the QingQi 250cc Liger?
I really want this bike...
The engine looks the same, but this has a oil cooler? Thats not something that requires a totally different engine does it? Its not the same as water cooled.
http://www.globalstrong.cn/admin/mai...0464298109.jpg
They all work together, they all share parts even complete bikes and designs.
I wonder how many 250cc engines there are available? Then what existing framing to support those? Then all the components who make the best ones?
They need universal relational databases, QC and tracking codes.
The Japanese have been tapping in for some time, I will assume all of the smaller displacement engines are being machined in Chinese factories.
I like the 200cc and 250cc for the USA market, the larger displacement is something that is very competitive. Considering that it all is copied technology or shared it's not going to become new and different. I would say the smaller displacement in the USA is the larger in the Chinese market, why aspire to change that?
I really like this 250cc GY from Wonjan:
Thats a Suzuki 250...can I have one?
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...1963/DS250.jpg
I rode one of those WonJan's a few years ago. The power to weight ration on the thing was fantastic but only because the frame and components were flimsy and poorly constructed. Also, some critical parts, like the steering head bearings looked to be way too small for the bikes power and weight. A good looking concept needing a better frame. Maybe it's better now but not many of these were exported and I haven't heard to many good reports about them.
CC
I do not know; I do like the design of it, it weighs 317 lbs. The 18” 15” tires could account for some of that?
I personally think that some bikes are not really for the dirt at all, this one I would say is not. It’s just for the street and for looks, it should not be ridden off road. The tires being 18” and 15” are not well suited for off road, not that ideal for the road either.
It has a real nice profile… I cannot see that bike off road.
http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/667129...1243975245.jpg
LOL
It does not look so good in this picture
http://wonjanmoto.en.ecplaza.net/5.jpg
WOW! This thread has suddenly exploooooded with new posts....what button did I press? :lol8:
The Shineray 250c deos not really have a 250c engine, it's actually 233cc or 223, similar the website is kinda broken, but I have seen this bike in a shop. It's actually the same bike as the Ninja 250cc copy just un-faired. I have to say it does look better constructed than my Regal Raptor. As a result it only puts out 12KW, which is inferior to a 249cc bike like the Qingqi.
sorry my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by davidqc
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
Which raptor do you have? I like the FX-3 I really wonder how well they are selling in the US? Pag is only selling the choppers, and they have or claim 300cc bored out versions? http://www.johnnypag.com/
I like the Shineray, the naked version and if it was under $3K out the door with a 2yr warranty and supported by a dealer I would consider one.
But I would also need to hear good things about it....not all raving but somethings that would compell me to buy it. Like fun to ride and relatively problem free or just that any problems were quickly resoved without undo grief.
I’m not of the school of thought that something needs to be more than what it is, a 1973 Vega can hold a 3.5 liter engine but its designed to hold a 1.8 if I wanted a Camaro then I would get one.
Why say they need to make 400cc or 500cc bikes if they have QC problems with the 200cc bikes? Bigger investment for the same scenario?
Then all these brand names, wow good luck building a reputation I think.
I would say test the hell out of it, and not in the American consumers hands. Then put your name on it and stand behind it. If that bike is reliable then it would sell in the US if priced low to get the name out, to get it moving. Rushing faulted products into the market and profit seeking will result in being chased out of the market. The consumer has a big mouth and can type into global forums.
We are not getting the best they have are we?
Oengus, we on here have been trying to buy/find out about/ test ride/help develop for free/ Chinese bikes for years. The fact is that most Chinese companies sell the cheapest bikes possible and improve their bikes by drip feeding processes over the years and provide minimal backup overseas, many are reluctant to remove the plastic cover from their seats for a test ride particularly at dealers, and even at the factory!
There are however exceptions and the knowledge exists to make bigger bikes that people in semi developed countries such as Brazil and Russia are very interested in, as well as riders in western countries who are looking for commuter bikes, or a bike to learn stunts on. How many Ducati riders would want a 250cc single as a 2nd bike, but a 500 single? Anyway the exceptions are that the Chinese already manufacture loads of reliable 400-650cc single engines, mostly for quads, Loncin for BMW, Jialing for their own bike and so on. So no, there is not much difficulty in making bigger bikes, if people are willing to buy them for the extra cost.
Oengus, about the Shineray, certain bikes' popularity takes hold in different countries. I think the Shineray has taken a foot-hold in Indonesia. Anyway it looks good, but not much is known about it.
In China the market is even more narrow for Chinese bikes than what they actually export. My choice was limited, but as I wanted a twin after years of singles I got the Raptor DD250G-2. There was a Galaxy 233 single, Zongshen 233 single and a Qingqi 249cc single as alternatives, and obviously the Shineray. I'd love to test all the bikes first, but it's unlikely here! Also the dealer backup is also very important over here, as many are reluctant to provide adequate service.
Yes there are certainly some quality issues with my regal raptor, but consider it was cheap. Also the choppers they make are much better quality than my road bike. $1,400 (US) OTR.
They do send bikes over for testing? They send samples to prospective distributors. Your interests are not interesting to them?
They want to know if you will buy part of their excess production capacity, they will some that is make what you design. But that comes from the top not from the bottom.
They have been dumping not the best on the US actually the worst, I can see it. They have been dumping the excess production; they use third party traders to do it, it’s a numbers game for them.
Some have gained access in different ways, it’s the highest volume buyer that can and does control and influence them, not the grass roots consumer feed back. Which is actually what is killing them.
Increasing the displacement changes nothing, is the Hyosung selling more GT650’s or GT250’s seriously that is something to consider. Why did they change the riding position on the 2010 GT250? Why did they increase it performance? The number one selling new bike in the US is the Ninja 250. How does the report compare to the larger Ninja? Is it 2:1.…10:1 it costs what for that data? It’s free if you can hack in…LOL
If you want to see the sales in the US count models on the show room floor. The mid range is very fat and very competitive and rotates a huge volume of well made garage trophies. The mileage low and the condition great.
It’s about small commuter bikes, low prices and being able to order them online. It’s a refined version of what the multiple brand distributor are doing.
Demming might call for a pull systems with JIT , MRP and ERP….it’s a process before it’s a design or a new design. EOQ’s and poisson tables that’s what is missing white collars not blue collars they have the later in droves.
Clearly you have an understanding of the American market Oengus, but thinking that relates to the rest of the world is a bit of a leap of imagination....
Using the Ninja 250 as an example is not a good argument, this is because the Chinese cannot make high revving sportier multiple cylinder modern type Japanese engines. To compete with a Ninja 250 they need to manufacture 500cc singles. 40 year old Honda engine designs, which make good generators and water pumps and are usually 223 and 233cc not even really 250cc will never be able to get anywhere near a Ninja. A Chinese 233cc single produces almost exactly half the amount of power of a Ninja 250, that's on a good day!
Lifan has a 400cc…should I say 399cc? For marketing everyone rounds up to the next whole 50mL, maybe they should have a rule about that? The international council for rounding off?
400cc
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y.../zingStorm.jpg
250cc
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...ifan_250-b.jpg
I’ll take that engine in a café racer….you can have the cruiser it’s just not for me.
I also would take a 250cc V-twin less the shaft drive if you cut the price by a grand. I’d like it to look shamelessly like the HD XL1200. That 250 is actually a 249cc engine…but only has 18.5hp the 400cc has about 28hp.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...sportster1.jpg
So there are potentially two bikes I am personally fine with 18.5 hp and I’d like the bike for around 2K MSRP and then the 400 for around $3K MSRP if I decide to move up a notch.
I could sell them on the net and they could be HD’s a XL250 and an XL400 and dropped shipped to your local Harley Dealer. They would get $500.00 for every bike they prep and then charge the customer $150.00 to register them.
So I as a customer would pay for shipping and that could be $250.00, then the dealer gets the bike and hands it over to me with a owners manual and a signed off check list and warranty agreement. Then it’s a matter of quality and reliability. It’s a matter of the dealer having access to the parts when and if they need them. It’s matter of support more than displacement.
The bikes may be selling better in the UK and may be only in the UK for that mater because of geography it’s an island and really not that big of one. Here they have 50 states the person that can and will service it is were?
Would you buy a bike that was sold and serviced in Germany if you lived in France? Comparatively speaking having one or two established dealer in the England is like have one or two in a single US state and with population density they get centric easier.
The HD dealer could use the bikes for their driving training courses, the Buell Blast is now gone. They could use the bikes to feed the higher line bikes, everybody gets caught up in the bigger better faster game.
Those are both Yamaha designs, both Viragos.
The Virago 250
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...50px-Xv250.jpg
The Virago 400
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...irago87jp1.jpg
These are no longer patented designs those expire after 14 years, 20 years for plant and utility patents and they cannot be renewed or reclaimed by another party.
So these are not protected engines anyone can make them, but if you could get Yamaha to provide the original specs it would happen faster.
Any older 400cc engine or any engine that is no longer a patented design is fair game. So if you have a bike you really like you could take it to china and get it copied, if you had the resources and a system in place to market the bike you could theoretically get control of some the production there.
If the product can be sold in every market then its a safer venture, then if going for a product that is only marketable in certain markets as that is more risky. Look at growth and the US has none, so you are up against the competition and the status quo and it conceptions and even preconceptions.
I would not have chosen these two products for the US I would have gone with café bikes and a younger market. The HD XL1200 design to me in my opinion is more marketable, But an exact copy of it is or would be a patent violation. But there is really nothing about the frame of the bike that is new, is there?
Zongshen makes the 250cc engine which one is a better engine make them or Lifan?
This has some information about 250cc engines being made in China.
http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...p?1622-YINGANG
The Virago 400 was sold in N. America as a Yamaha Virago XV500. Still, the hp was terrible.
The most powerful Chinese cruiser is actually the Chunlan cruiser, which is a copy of a Honda Magna 250. This has a 249 cc water cooled 90 degree vtwin with about 30 hp.
Riveting stuff! :thumbsup: Keep it coming...:clap:
Yes, but with cruisers the torque is more important than the hp.
Why is that Jim is it because most of the cruiser riders have beer guts?
Confucius says skinny man on bike with small crank goes faster?
Yamaha made lots of VX bikes a 400cc and a 500cc, 40hp and 44hp? Not sure what they sold in 1983 one of these or both of these; not sure what they sold in the US, that is.
The lifans are clones of the bikes I posted a 250cc and a 400cc, the 400cc had a shaft drive and so does the Lifan, the 250cc is chain driven and so was the Yamaha.
Both Lifans have less hp than the Yamaha’s but not that much difference. It’s more than likely the jets and the EPA restrictions. When people change the jets on bikes they are violating the law? They could end up with EFI forced on them? You know the environmentalist are a tenacious bunch.
Heck I’d like to have a 250 Phazer a traverse four cylinder 16 valves and it seems like it would be a screamer with 45hp @ 14,500rpm
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y.../phazer_03.jpg
What’s interesting is changes in EPA legislation is bringing about revolutions in two-cycle engine technology.
I have to wonder what the Chinese are doing? They use the R&D moniker on or for most of motorcycle manufacturers. They could be waiting on the expiration of patents that are relative? Getting a head start and maybe even buying some patent rights?
They obviously study the products and decide which is best to replicate, which can be made compliant to EPA and EEC standards. Those that can be replicated most cost effectively, then what about the 2-strokes they are glaring examples historically of more for less.
So when government sets a time line and mandates on that date the engineers begin to consider the options.
What and who is Surrich/Orbital 2?
In the interim what bikes from the past that were resurrected may be replaced with clean efficient 2-cycle technology which will be lighter and more powerful? I am hard pressed to believe that Zongshen PEM is not working on 2-strokes and 4-strokes engines as well as electric motors.
I wonder if they still are investing in resurrections? Seems there is potential in the EFI being applied to some of the older engines, seems like the resurrection of the 4-cycles looses about 25% of it power under the EPA current restrictions. I wonder if they spend resources on improving that? Only some I would say and its more the short term.
I would seek out expired 6-speeds and dual carb engines, but maybe they do that?
But they are selling what over 80% of total production into the domestic market. Once imperialist then militarist now transitioning to capitalists. They flooded the market and now they are knee deep or even up to there necks? The line type system that being shit flows from the top theocrats and the no excuses kind of thinking is not revolutionary.
I like seeing the reference to ERP on the Jinan Qingqi site, and in plain English, it is helping.
A research and technology group needs something new, they sell patent rights. The Chinese are like holy cow anyone can make what we make, if its old technology we are copying each other. That’s why they are not so anxious to reveal everything. In the future if it is unique then only those that buy the rights can make it, the R&D groups sell patent rights.
So they are leveraging the selling of the old technology into developing new technology.
But in the mean time the USA market is all about brand recognition, too many brands and we will have some reluctance….all the same with many different names even worse.
So take what you have and make unique starter bikes for the USA sell them through the internet. Each brand from each manufacture with excellent parts access and service, test the hell out of the products. The best starter bikes for the least amount of money. The high end Chinese market and the low end USA match.
But they have to connect to the existing dealer network as feeder, to establish the relationship and reputation.
The process and the system of sales is plowing the ground for the next generation of products, what comes from the R&D will or should be advanced and then the mechanism to sell them and reputation are in place.
You can see how reactionary the market is, hard time as in adversity brings about change. The hacking brings about better defenses, they need to be careful with that because they may get a back hand or a delusional set of fabricated information they think they are sneaking out when in fact they may be handed something faulted and misleading intentionally. The blood hound sniffing a pile of poop.
http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...er-Links/page2
this may help or just further confuse?
Some of the fault that there are so many Chinese manufacturers is the Japanese manufacturers. For example in my city there is a Quad manufacturer called ODOS, or something similar. All Yamaha technology, a joint venture with Yamaha in fact, manufacturing low and medium end quads . The quads are sold through Yamaha dealerships overseas. The salesmen tell customers, 'if the original Yamaha bikes are too expensive for you, you can get an ODOS, parts and service are interchangeable, and same warranty'. Why the Japanese don't apply this logic to the Chinese motorcycle market is anyone's guess! This is clever marketing, it keeps Yamaha in control of the high, medium and low end of the market, if there are any Chinese undercutting their prices, it is probable that they are crap.
The Jianshe Phazer 250, 400 and 600? The Sundiro VTR250 CBF500? Qingqi Bandit 400? Why not? This re-branding and lower cost base for already successful products can keep lots of the 2nd rate Chinese manufacturers to a small market share, and stop the Japanese dragging their own brand names through the muck when someone who hasn't had a day off in six months is doing the wiring. These joint venture companies already exist, they just don't have much vision other than 125cc bikes.