Both Thailand and India set to produce CBR250R by Spring 2011!

News just in, the Honda CBR250R, pictured below:
http://www.autoevolution.com/images/...eo-25730_1.jpg
Has just gone into production in Thailand, and is due to go into production in India in spring 2011. As yet no date has been set for Chinese production.

* Overall length × Overall width × Overall height (m): 2.035 × 0.720 × 1.125
* Wheelbase (m): 1.370
* Ground clearance (m): 0.145
* Seat height (m): 0.780
* Curb weight (kg): 161 (STD) 165 (ABS)
* Riding capacity (No. of people): 2
* Minimum turning radius (m): 2.5
* Engine type: CS250RE, liquid-cooled 4-stroke DOHC single cylinder
* Power (rumored) 17.3KW (23.3hp)
* Torque (rumored) 20.7Nm (15.2ft-lbs)
* Displacement (cmc): 249.3
* Bore × Stroke (mm): 76.0 × 55.0
* Compression ratio: 10.7
* Fuel supply system: Programmed fuel injection system (PGM-FI)
* Starter type: Self-starter
* Ignition type: Full-transistor battery ignition
* Lubricating type: Wet sump
* Fuel tank capacity (L): 13
* Clutch type: Wet multi-plate with coil springs
* Transmission type: Constant mesh 6-speed return
* Tire size: Front 110/70-17M/C; Rear 140/70-17M/C
* Brake type: Front - Hydraulic disk; Rear - Hydraulic disk
* Suspension type: Front - Telescopic; Rear - Swing arm (Pro-link suspension system)
* Frame type: Diamond

If I were Sundiro Honda I'd be in serious discussions with Japan. (hint hint) :mwink::mwink: If the pricing was right, (Price comparative to India and Thailand) they could sell quite a few.

The all-new CBR250R model is powered by a newly-developed liquid-cooled 249cc 4-stroke 4-valve single-cylinder DOHC engine coupled with a six-speed transmission, and that meets Euro 3 emission standards. This is thanks to Honda’s Programmed Fuel Injection System (PGM-FI) as well as an oxygen sensor, accompanied by a catalyzer fitted inside the exhaust pipe.

Safety wise, the machine packs Combined ABS (a world first for a 250cc-class road sports model), which makes the bike more stable by bringing together a Combined Brake System (CBS) and an Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS).

“What was on our minds during the development of new CBR? It was to realize an attractive quarter model that can meet the demands of the times to come and provide customers all over the world with joy and at an affordable price. What we aimed at was the 'Sport Quarter for One World, CBR250R.’” a statement fro Honda reads.

The 2011 CBR250R will now enter production in Thailand, with sales launching in November. It will be launched as a global model for export to a wide range of countries such as the ASEAN countries, Japan, Europe, North America, and Australia. In the company’s home market, namely Japan, the CBR250R is scheduled to begin sales in the spring of 2011.

Honda Motorcycle and Scooter India will also start production of the CBR250R next spring and extend sales from India to South America. Pricing, which varies depending on the market, is yet to be announced.

My own thoughts....in terms of Asia and South America, and in terms of Western Europe and North America. This bike in each market will have a different effect and use.

In terms of Asia and South America

A lovely machine, perfect for Chinese roads, I imagine it has excellent handling, and great fuel economy and reliability. Really what a lot of people are looking for, a cheap to run forgiving bike which will be more than quick enough on most Asian roads. I want one now, for the right price. If it is available in China it would certainly be my number one choice in China, and beats the YBR250 in all departments, more power, more torque and better looks. Many people will love the fact they have a bike with EFI and ABS too! With the full fairing it looks like a lot more bike than it really is, and that is perfect for Asian markets, ride a 'top of the line' domestically made economical machine, with easy to source parts, but look like you are riding something that has been expensively imported.

In terms of Western Europe and North America

No matter how clever the engine is, it just isn't a twin. With Honda's history of great punchy twins it's a real shame that they couldn't make a lovely fuel injected parallel twin. In this regard this bike probably will not out sell the Kawasaki Ninja 250R, in the US at least. I ride for fun, multiple cylinders sound better, it's that simple, thus I enjoy the ride more. In the late 80's early 90's we had the fantastic 'baby blade' which had a lot more personality and excitement than this dreary commuter. Maybe CBF250R would have been a more suitable name? To be fair I think the CBR250R is marginally better than the Yamaha YBR250. It has looks from the similar design board as Honda’s VFR1200F, but that bike has not proven itself with popularity or sales. But targeting the Ninja 250R and then building a something marginally better than a YBR250? The whole concept seems strangled by international, particularly EU emission rules which seem to be sanitizing and stripping motorcycles of their power and individuality, and Honda's own lack of imagination. I've gotta be honest the power-to-weight is pretty bad. 17KW and 160+kg, not so good. Does a bike that cannot exceed 125km/h (80mph) really need 'insurance cost increasing' almost full fairing? Also why do manufacturers always think a small displacement bike must be a commuter? A powerful lightweight twin or four cylinder performance machine, why not?

Conclusion

I can't figure out if Honda are targeting experienced Asian riders or entry-level western riders, it seems Honda will fail, at least for one group, it just fails to excite on paper, at least for western markets. A Ninja 250R to me is a better bike, a more powerful twin with more character. In many places a 250 just isn't needed anyway, most people learn on a YBR125 or CG125, then go on to a CBF500 or something without bothering with a 250. However if the pricing is right it exactly suits developing countries. So Honda have basically partially shot themselves in the foot, they could have made a bike that would appeal to both markets, in the end they've made a bike which will only appeal to one. It needed to be a 20-25KW twin, but it didn't need a full fairing or ABS!

That is a global bike and it will take a share of the Ninja market. The Ninja is offered at just about $4,000.00 in the USA and its a breakeven bike, made in Thailand and retail priced at cost. Because it is a starter and the owners move up bikes getting up into the ZX line its a starter.

That bike is coming to the USA and it will have to be priced under $4,000.00 to take its share. They will price it low and then move these new riders up into the CBR line.

It’s not just a single it’s a twin cam 4-valve so the sound will not be typical, it will not sound like a CRF230. It will be smoother and more purposeful sounding.

With it’s 17inch rims it looks nimble.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoG...R250R-ABS1.jpg


In the USA the Ninja has been the number one spot in highest unit sales for the past six years. The markets choice for price as it’s the most bike for the money.

Since the only real competition is the Hyosung GT250 and that bike being Chinese made and not supported well, but definitely competitive, Honda is making the right move on this. The Hyosung is a feeder also it feeds up to the GT650. Then consider that scenario does not exist in china does it? But Hyosung is making the GT250 in china and then the GT650 in Korea so they can work that in markets were they can sell both but not in those that they cannot sell entry and mid level.

The thing is the Chinese factories are stuck on volume and in that just mass producing. Sundiro could have been the feeder for the CBR but so can Hero and beginning in Thailand may be to simply insure they can get the Ninja’s market on it's home turf first? They are not that concerned with Kawasaki in China because they are not there.

So here we go….the CBR is selling at Honda USA today and $3,999.00 and made in Thailand.

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Originally Posted by MJH

twin cam 4-valve so the sound will not be typical

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4 valve per cylinder doesn't make a lot of difference at this size in terms of power or sound. With all the anti-bike emissions and noise standards it will sound somewhere between a sewing machine and a Briggs and Stratton. Although sometimes bigger 4 valve singles at 400cc-650cc can feel 'twinnish' at low torque, although the sound isn't as good as a twin. I still really feel Honda have messed up with this being a single.

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Originally Posted by MJH

They are not that concerned with Kawasaki in China because they are not there.

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True, but Yamaha are here. Yamaha have sold quite a few of their YBR250s even at their boneheaded 25,000 RMB price ($4,000 US). I think a Chinese made YBR250 is worth 15,000 RMB, and the CBR250R 17,000 RMB.

Gonna be $7500 plus in Aus. but relatively speaking just $500 more than the Hyosung GT250R and the Kawasaki Ninja 250 R will be $7,999. Hmm, which one to get, lol.

lovely looks, why can't Honda China produce it?:confused1:

Why does China lose face over this? It's just one of hundreds of models that are not available in China. I can understand why you want one, it's a nice bike, but even if it was made here it would still cost ¥25-30k. And just because something is made here, doesn't mean parts and service are easily obtainable. Also consider, it may be perfect for many of the roads you like to ride on, but for the vast majority of infrastructure and traffic conditions in China, it's hardly and ideal choice.

I rode around on CrazyCarl's Ninja 250 for a day, and we talked about how great and practical the original Ninja 250 is. Kawasaki milked 20+ years out of that design with only minor changes. I think it's interesting that other manufacturers never really challenged Kawasaki in the 250 sportbike class. Honda had the 250 Interceptor, but it came and went in only three short years. Probably because 600cc is the de-facto entry level machine in North America, and sales of 250's have never kept up with the 600cc class. Now you have emerging markets where engine size and power are not so important, and Honda is probably hoping they can cash in on the "bling" oriented consumers. I'm sure they will be happy if they grab a few common sense, entry level riders in N.A. and Europe as well.

Cheers!
ChinaV

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Why does China lose face over this?

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Joke! Most people in China love cars = they don't really care anyway. But Thailand at the end of the day has been chosen to produce them NOT China. Changed name of thread, was a bit crap anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

but for the vast majority of infrastructure and traffic conditions in China, it's hardly and ideal choice.

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Adventure touring aside, what is the best bike for Chinese roads then?

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

but even if it was made here it would still cost ¥25-30k

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Not necessarily. Although that's likely I'll admit. A Chinese joint venture boss will see the Thai version sells in the US for $4000, then he'll do the conversion and try to sell the Chinese made version in China for ¥26,600. But obviously a Chinese version would be cheaper to produce, made lower quality with cheaper labor costs etc, also without shipping costs and as many taxes and being domestic would not be unfeasible for it to sell for ¥15-20K, especially with potential export markets as the Thai factory may not be able to keep up with developing country demand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

doesn't mean parts and service are easily obtainable.

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Having owned Sundiro Hondas in the past the parts are available easily if pre-ordered. Usually I prefer my own mechanic to order the parts, as I've never had a problem with the bikes in warranty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Adventure touring aside, what is the best bike for Chinese roads then?

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There is no "perfect" China bike, other than whatever bike you are riding at the time. :riding:

I think if you look at the vast majority of riding stories and styles on MyChinaMoto, they tend to favor bikes with more comfort and suspension. I'm all for a good sport-bike, but the constant construction and destruction of roads here is not so good for tight suspensions and cramped riding styles. I'm fully aware that adventure touring/dual-sport bikes are not everyones cup of tea, but many people seem to end up on them after a few good beatings in the Chinese countryside. Passion drives our perception of what is perfect, and you're obviously passionate about tackling the twisties, thus making a ¥15k sport-bike the best choice for your needs. But living in China is all about compromises, and the reality today is, you have no choice but to enjoy riding something you would probably never consider purchasing if you didn't live here. With rare exceptions for those who can afford outrageously expensive imports.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Not necessarily. Although that's likely I'll admit. A Chinese joint venture boss will see the Thai version sells in the US for $4000, then he'll do the conversion and try to sell the Chinese made version in China for ¥26,600. But obviously a Chinese version would be cheaper to produce, made lower quality with cheaper labor costs etc, also without shipping costs and as many taxes and being domestic would not be unfeasible for it to sell for ¥15-20K, especially with potential export markets as the Thai factory may not be able to keep up with developing country demand.

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Let's be clear, the ABS version is not $3999 (¥26,600) it's $4499 (¥29,900). So now you're talking about having a special "China" version that's more like the other 25 million pieces of shit they make here every year. If India can make them to spec for ¥22,000/¥25,700, I doubt China can do much better. Labor is roughly the same, and there are very few tax advantages for companies operating in China these days.

If China had a "real" CBR250R for ¥15k... no brainer, I would buy one in a second. But it's not ever going to happen, as Honda probably doesn't want to risk their reputation and intellectual property by having this bike made in here.

Cheers!
ChinaV

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I'm all for a good sport-bike, but the constant construction and destruction of roads here is not so good for tight suspensions and cramped riding styles. I'm fully aware that adventure touring/dual-sport bikes are not everyones cup of tea,

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Sport bikes? I don't ride a sport bike. I ride road bikes with neutral riding position, in fact pretty much the same riding position as your bikes, other than legs and feet being slightly more bent and feet higher, with a normal amount of suspension travel. The bike in my avatar is my CBF150, just a regular road bike with a pointless bling Honda bikini fairing. To me a Suzuki Hayabusa is a sports bike, yuk. The CBR250R you'll find also isn't a sports bike, just a sporty looking road bike.

I like dual sport bikes, because they are lightweight compared to other bikes, being based on dirt bikes which makes them accelerate quickly so give you good power to weight. I know you're gonna hate to hear this but road bikes go OK off-road, and go OK on shitty roads. Also there is no compromise on a nice twisty well made road. Dual sport bikes exactly because of their longer travel softer suspension and tires are a compromise at the one thing I enjoy; going around corners on well sealed roads! You and crazy Carl may have written your rule book which states: 'China should only be ridden toured on a dual sport bike, because of the state of the roads in some places is poor'. Although we have people who have ridden to Berlin on a YBR125, and one of my friends made in to Lhasa in 2006 and all around T**et on a CMX250 clone, and this year went to Kunming on his 08 bike which is the same as mine. There are many other examples.

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Originally Posted by China V

If India can make them to spec for ¥22,000/¥25,700

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Yeah OK, you're right. Prices for the CBF150 and the Unicorn (Indian CBF150) match up exactly 64,000 Rupees (9,900 RMB) for that, so ¥22,000/¥25,700 would be likely for China. Less than your original ¥25-30k. More than my ¥15-20. However if you can pick up good joint venture 125cc-150cc singles in China for ¥10,000, and reasonable 250cc bikes for ¥12,000-15,000, Honda aren't gonna sell much of these even if they are available.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

You and crazy Carl may have written your rule book which states: 'China should only be ridden toured on a dual sport bike, because of the state of the roads in some places is poor'.

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Uhm, my rule book is pretty loose when it comes to bike choices. Look at my first two China bikes, hardly dual-sports, and my initial 45,000 kilometers here had quite a few off road excursions that pounded both of these machines pretty badly.

http://www.contactdi.com/2010/oldies01.jpg

I wouldn't call either of them "ideal" for China roads, but they were plenty of fun at the time.

Your thread is about a bike called the Honda CBR250R, not the bike in your avatar. If you google CBR250R and read the first 5 articles that come up about it, they all refer to this as a sport-bike. That doesn't look like a comfy upright seating position to me.

http://www.contactdi.com/2010/oldies02.jpg

Cheers!
ChinaV

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http://www.contactdi.com/2010/oldies02.jpg

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Looks like a guy leaning forward on a sporty looking road bike with a neutral riding position to me. Possibly bars could be 2cm forward and lower than completely neutral.

The Indian market doesn't really want a sports bike, but they seem to love the 'sporty look' though, who can blame Honda for exploiting this in their marketing? They are very keen on the Unicorn (CBF150 ish thing) and some of the Bajaj (Kawasaki) and Hero Honda 150-250cc EFI singles. Small nippy bikes which have neutral riding positions, are cheap to run, practical but all the sporty stuff is just fluffy bling marketing. I know this because I have toured there and done 10,000 kms on three different rented machines. I imagine in five years there will be tens of thousands of Indian guys riding around on CBR250R's with sari-guards and with Shiva and Om stickers on it.

The new CBR250R bike is pathetic compared to the old CBR250RR.
http://www.mpcg.h17.ru/images/image014.jpg
45.00 HP (32.8 kW)) @ 14500 RPM

Also much more sanitized and has much less character than the lovely VTR250, which is still being made.
http://vicky.in/international/wp-con..._vtr_250_1.jpg
29.50 HP (21.5 kW)) @ 10500 RPM

And finally pails in insignificance to the sexy Japanese gray-imported 90's CB250 Hornet.
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gal...096%20%201.jpg

I'm not really sure what the argument is about here! :sissyfight:
Or the thread any more! :eekers:

Modern bikes, even these cheaper copies and clones and licensed machines, are all very tasty. :thumbsup:

They all go faster than just about everything I grew up with in the same engine class. But even so, I took my Honda CB250 everywhere, including on farms and dirt tracks and yes I took the old BSA C15 everywhere as well, including up the stairs and into the front room of my second floor flat. :riding:And on the motorways across Europe many times. I always suffered breakdowns (both machines as bad as the other), I always got cold and wet and always got stuck somewhere miles from anywhere in winter.

These bikes are all good to look at, relatively good value for what you pay these days and will certainly go just about anywhere apart from really bad off-road tracks. And then of course bits will fall off, crack, break and rust - as they do on many cheaper dirtbikes/dual-sport/motard as well!

If there is to be an argument it should be about value for money compared to each other in the market and only when you bring in such issues as reliability, repairability, spares sourcing does that make sense. And it only makes sense in each different market depending on what else is available or affordable. I think terms such as 'sports bike' 'road racer' and so on are also pointless on all of these machines, whatever label they get.

They are just motorbikes and someone will want one or the other because of its bloody colour and street cred as much as some other soul will want it for any particular purpose. China V has the right idea, get a shed full of them in different flavours!:bowdown:

Personally, I don't much care who makes them where (if I did I wouldn't have a Chinabike), I just need to know if I can afford it, if it goes and that it won't kill me. I think most folk in most markets think the same and if often comes down to which one is on special down the road from you.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-co...102710top2.jpg
Shoulders above pegs=neutral.

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Originally Posted by jape

I'm not really sure what the argument is about here! :sissyfight:
Or the thread any more! :eekers:

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No argument, just debating different views. I'm egging Z on about what he wants the bike to be versus what Honda is actually producing. Unfortunately, I don't feel this bike has a place in the China market, Z feels different.

Z, I did spend five years in a Honda/Suzuki dealership trying to convince people that Katana's and VFR's were more comfortable and practical than cruisers, so I'm pretty familiar with footpeg to ass to shoulder positions. I know what your saying, maybe it's neutral, but I wonder how well it fits a person that is 178cm tall, especially in the legs.

I also like to troll Honda forums :icon10:, just kidding.

You can tell it's winter because people are arguing bikes we will never be able to ride here. Gonna be a long winter, glad I'm in the south and still get to ride. :mikey:

Cheers!
ChinaV

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Originally Posted by China V

You can tell it's winter because people are arguing bikes we will never be able to ride here. Gonna be a long winter, glad I'm in the south and still get to ride.

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Biatch! I just got cabin fever that's all, -5c yesterday, couldn't even get out on the MTB :gaah:. Forecast for +6c on Saturday, dawn till dusk ride MTB ride for me with my ski gear. :riding:

I think we are an example of how to argue, just use opinions and ideas to express arguments, not personal attacks or swearing. :goodtime:

Back to the bike, it certainly seems a neutral position, but on the sporty side of neutral I'll admit. Also I think they wouldn't sell that many here, just because you can buy a shitty cheapo box car/van for 20,000. More practical for those with a family. They'll only sell to the few bike fans. But then again there probably is a decent export market for a slightly cheaper version than the Thai version to places like Turkey and Russia. While they are there why not CCC comply it, especially as after Jan 1st there won't be much you can legally buy and register in China due to the CCC emission rules.

Honda will never manufacture the VTR250 in china or the CBR250 for that mater, they will never offer the PGM-FI technology for manufacturing in china and should not the cost of doing so is inherently much higher then doing so in India and Thailand, much higher as in the cost of recovering intellectual property rights losses is staggering and often futile in china.

The day designs are introduced they are copied and sold and subsequently it will be manufactured by multiple manufactures. That does not happen as often in India or Thailand.

The joint ventures in china should not be considered viable for production of any designs that are right protected. The cost of recovering damages are prohibitive. If you offer designs for anything to be manufactured in china you should expect to see those designs manufactured by others.

Honda is very smart they set the bike in markets at costs and that cannot be beat by anyone even if they copy it, the price difference would simply reflect total lack of support and also cost cutting labor and manufacturing that compromises quality.

For a mistake it seem awfully brilliant.

It’s funny force EFI on the market, for what to attempt to get the technology brought in? Sorry no takers and also not profitable to import them so what happens next, Chinese versions of EFI and lots of crappy running bikes and a limited supply of them? The used bikes go up in value and the industry suffers?

They need to develop their own technology and learn to protect the rights to it and the rights of others in the process, the system is stacked and many are seeing that, offering a distinct advantage to others, India, Thailand and Vietnam.

I said it before all manufactured items should be required to register technical documentation, then to get entranced into any market it would need to be unique or a licensed version. It is not unrealistic as CAD diagrams and engineering specification can be analyzed with intelligent software applications. These types of standard regulations on an international level would insure right protection of designs. The thing is that those that totally ignore regulations actually bring about more regulations. In the past most endeavors were faith based and the process self regulating on actions in good faith. Technology allows information to transfer very quickly and is a root cause of intellectual property right losses and it also will need to be implemented as a solution.

It’s not just a motorcycle it is a set of designs and components, in that is invested capital and in that rights to recovering it, as its an investment. Not to mention a matter of safety, environmental impact and after market support. So even if they look exactly the same, they may not be. The differences should be documented and in complete details.

Every product and even every entity should have data sheets and complete disclosure within that, there is less corruption in a totally open system. Think about it, it is what it is, what are they hiding and why? They want to protect it from being copied, but if it all in the open those that copy it can be seen. Those that are funneling profit into the corner offices can be seen.

I tell you this the value go goes up with demand only, if there if it is limited then it get the highest value. It all has to balance in propensity.

China now has income disparity congratulations, nothing grows without greed? But in that you set the stage for disenfranchisement? For some the $3,999.00 bike is unattainable and for others a cheap bike below their standards. Have and have not, hmmm.

Why don’t one of you guys take job in a Chinese factory on the line and make a documentary on it? Tell them you will work a year for a free bike?

What the heck am I going to do till spring….maybe I will write a book?

Well seeing as how it is winter for many and the cabin-crazy season for riders, and I am always crazy, lets run with it a bit. I have never resolved these things in my mind, idealistic philosophy, concepts of honour and even faith never manage to balance satisfactorily with the pragmatic and realistic concepts based on free market. Yes, people invent new things and deserve reward, yes research, development manufacturing, maintenance and all that require invested capital. But also all folk worldwide want/need/dream of transport and comfort and ease. As westerners on the whole, we sit in a very lush position however poor we are relatively in our own society. We look at minor variations in power and bling in what WE want before we look at the needs of some poor villager whose local economy is medieval and works harder daily, consistently, than most of us have ever managed.
In truth, we in the West live still on the rewards of exploiting, raping and misusing the less technologically able parts of the world over centuries. Of course, a Chinese Empire (or African etc.) would not necessarily be any better or worse than our own historical cultures in this.
So is the answer in recording and regulating any invention with the concomitant licensing and taxing? i am not sure it is. If we are to gain anything by developing a true international and global structure I would prefer it look behind the market economies to a broader reality. Human beings, as Germans relating to Jews, Japanese to everyone else, USA to Vietnamese/N.Koreans and now Moslem fundamentalists to unbelievers (to mention just a few) at all times in history can be seen to be mainly brutal even tyrannical and murderous. I am not a fool, I don't think you give a monkey a banana and he will never steal another from you, but I do think that well-fed, well-housed people tend to be less manipulable by tyrants and psychopaths. Always a fine line as fear of losing the comfort can be manipulated and also breeding often rises beyond what is maintainable under such conditions.
So maybe a market energy can be harnessed that requires less profit, less greed.
My point, if any, is that this happens anyway, by the simple measure of ripping off the technology and exploiting it, but this is just a reversal of the technologically advanced exploiting the cheap labour and some, including me, would say it is fair.
We live in a world which is mainly concerned with power and thus, too often, violence. It is nature. Do we try and find honour and live by it, or is it a chimera, a fanciful notion that gets us clubbed on the head from behind and our fancy bike stolen. Do 'outlaws' truly live by honour when they steal and kill and supply drugs to those not in the gang? Do governments have a right to legislate about licensing inventions when they steal and kill themselves?
Sod it. China would steal a technological advance would it? And then what, make a bit of money instead of the Japs? The Japs should give it to them. Everything any human being devises comes on the back of what some other human being worked out or developed. It is then exploited as much as possible as due reward and legally backed as such by the powerful, not necessarily the originators. And so the imbalance continues as the rest of the world begs/steals, borrows to catch up. Even goes to war.
Something wrong somewhere.
International law should be, if anything at all, 2 years to own and exploit anything from music and film rights to technological advances. Then let the energy of the masses take it and play with it and enjoy it. There must be some more peaceful way we can all live together and enjoy the benefits of life.

You cannot just throw out an arbitrary time frame for the rights to recover a research and development investment. If you want to design an excellent product and the right product at the right time you have to spend money and the ability to recover that is a function of the market. It is a component of the Total Unit Cost that is all inclusive and in that shorter lines make for higher costs, if you only have two year to recover the costs then that would be inflationary on the sale price and a deterrent to doing any research and develop.

Aye, and then we rely on good faith and goodwill after the elapsed recovery time over greed and insecurity? I am not saying my idea will work, just that I prefer it to the rapacious market force system we live in.

Write that book MJH, we need the answers!

I would like the meek to inherit the earth, then I could relax a bit more and experiment with things, might even come up with a new engine design in the back shed. I have been experimenting with levitation but only managed a split second so far. Was scared the speed of the earth moving through space would get me ...

I do think that the values humans live by are warped but fully admit I don't know how to spread the wealth and protect the nicer, milder souls amongst us from the nasties. I would truly love to turn my shotgun and my swords into ploughshares but I don't trust my neighbours.

Sorry MJH, your arguments seem well constructed, however you are incorrect. There is already a Japanese EFI motorcycle being made in China, which isn't being successfully copied, the Jianshe Yamaha YBR250! The reason why it is hard to copy EFI systems is each needs to be tailored to the exact engine. Therefore there is no massive leap in imagination that would make it impossible for Sundiro Honda to manufacture the CBR250R in China, the VTR250 is much less likely. In fact I think an EFI version of the CBX250 Twister would be a better proposition, or an EFI version of the CBF250 as these bikes appear more basic. What does drive things being made in China is simple, sales. More likely export sales, if Honda needs cheap manufacturing capacity to supply demand, they will use Sundiro Honda.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

... What does drive things being made in China is simple, sales. More likely export sales, if Honda needs cheap manufacturing capacity to supply demand, they will use Sundiro Honda.

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Hi ZMC, I dont believe so. There is only one car producing JV to export cars from China, Honda produces some Jazz/Fit for exports markets in China. Honda has a majority in this company, this is only allowed due to the fact that this factory is for export only.

Why are VW, GM, Toyota... not using the "cheap" production in China? Think about it.

Car/Motorbikes industry is a restricted industry, so a Joint Venture is requiered to sell China made vehicles in China. Result you have to share your Know How with a Joint Venture partner. For disclosing this knowhow you want to get a reward - high enough profit.
Your JV partner is in the business for the money reason as well, so the profit requierements are higher than in other markets.

Production in China is not cheaper then Thailand or India, especially not when your calculation depends heavily on high quality components you get from external suppliers.

Why to share the profit if you can make it 100% in another country for comparable cost base??? There are not many reasons to use China as an export base for indutries where JV's mandatory.

I think it more likely to be because no-one trusts China as stable and manipulable, simpler forces are at play than market and profit, they are scared China will take it all and in five years turn around again and close the borders if the experiment fails. The world is scared of China because they think China thinks like they do. They are wrong, the experiment is mainly an internal phenomenon and the motives are Chinese, not western based and hidden under Chinese schemes!

This is the Jianshe Yamaha YBR250. This is the exact stumbling block to your argument if you think that the CBR250R couldn't be made in China.

http://www.technical-specification.c...a-ybr250-2.jpg

There is essential minimal differences between this bike and the Honda CBR250R.

Yet it is:
-EFI
-Made in China and many other countries including Brazil, and is exported worldwide.

Millions of scooters and motorcycles are exported from China every year. Why? Because China can manufacture in massive volume, cheap labor, and cheap parts.

Will the CBR250R be made in China? Probably not. Why? Because Honda probably don't need that volume, and there is minimal domestic demand for motorcycles in China at the moment, especially for this kind of bike which probably be considered expensive.

Could the CBR250R be made in China if the boss of Sundiro pushed for it or they needed a cheaper version than the Thai version or more volume? Yes, they can easily.

But a Japanese company making bikes with EFI in China? Surely they wouldn't do that because the nasty Chinese would just steal the technology immediately wouldn't they? Jianshe Yamaha YBR250, nuff said.

But a Japanese or German company would never manufacture to export anything other than bog standard 125cc motorcycle parts, because they could just make a deal in Thailand or Vietnam or something and avoid Chinese red-tape? BMW 650 engine made by Loncin. Yamaha YBR250.

There would be no reason for anyone to make a CBR250R in China because they are already making it in Thailand and India? Indian factory will probably only produce for the Indian market. Thailand may be limited in it's production capability. The YBR125, CG125 and YBR250 to name a few are made in many countries. In the UK for example, if you go to a Yamaha dealer you get a choice between identical looking bikes. The price difference will be explained depending on where it is made. Japan good. Brazil pretty good. China OK/rubbish.

I think there are things that are not discussed, Yamaha imports the YZF-R1 into china and then they were being sold online? I’ve seen advertisement for them not sure what that’s all about. Raises the question of how does a unit designated for sale in china end up in Bulgaria? The prices of the YBR in china are they high to prevent these units from being sold outside the formal channels? It’s not just a tedious game of monitoring intellectual rights for manufacturing, they also have to keep an eye on channels of distributions. The rights are to the value chain also, the formal systems that support the products.

If they can make money and get away with it they will it can be made black market, if not then sell it grey market. Dealers in other countries replenishing inventory through lower cost secondary sources?


Pleasure doing business with you….hey is that my wallet? No, not your wallet it my wallet…just look like your wallet. Oh, so sorry is your wallet, have picture of your wife in it.


I would say Honda prefers to manufacturer out of wholly owned operations and in that strategically.

These are cool bike have you seen these…
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/upload...ages/MT_03.jpg

I like that Hero broke off from Honda, maybe that is what Sunduro should do?

The CBR250 will go on sale in India in April 2011 for 150,000 INR about $3,300.00 USD
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...15-718000.html

Both Sunduro and Jianshe could break away from their respective partners and negotiate the rights to what they already produce? I have to wonder how much rights Hero has to the PGM-FI they had accessed from Honda? They have to buy out of the partnership and they may have established internal research and develop staffing so that can develop new products?

If a name is made then in that a reputation then they can build on the huge markets they sit within and in some cases sell these products abroad. But they have limited ability to do that they have no real solid networks abroad.

Hero will compete against Honda on level ground in India, it not the case in china, it not even an option to be wholly owned in china, so then why grow Sunduro or Jianshe they eventually will be your competitor and in china they may eventually control the whole market.

Eventually Qingqi could take over Mercury, Polaris and Suzuki sales if they let them they would, so they meter in technolgy to a level then stop. The only option the Chinese have is to separate at that point and develop their own. In that they should allow FDI and wholly owned subsidiaries and encourage competition.

That event is a way off, they have to establish brand names in other markets and operations within those. Easier said then done, they cannot take the technology and sell it under one brand often they learn they have no right to it in other markets. It may be owned by Briggs and Stratton or Tecumseh in other markets. They may have only the domestic rights, they have to have their own and then manage their own rights. What goes around comes around, the shoe eventually on the other foot.

Wasn’t Qingqi once a private company, then found to be avoiding taxes and then subsequently taken over by the government? Do you guys read the Chinese news papers? I found that information in Chinese it does not exist in English.

I am not wrong or right I am an annalist, a bit like Dean Witter to.

Off the topic : Does any one have the Cbr 250r in shenzhen gz or around ?

Not seen any other than an unplated one. However I believe you can order one and plate one legally in China, was explained to me it 'could' be registered by a dealer, but this is China and some people are full of sh*t so answer is 'probably'. However being made in Thailand and imported, it's going to be more expensive. Why not go with a liquid cooled twin, and less hassle with the cheaper Haojue Suzuki GW250? True I am baised towards Honda, but then I'm also baised towards twins!