Auxiliary tank for Jialing JH600B sidecar

Okay people, lets talk aux. fuel tanks. Since my Jialing 600B has such absolutely horrible fuel mileage i guess I have no other option but look into aux fuel tank. Now of course I could just haul a jerry can but what the fun in that.... No, my creative side wants to build or have someone build a Aux. tank out of aluminum to be mounted in a weird lower space in the sidecar. Because of rules about refilling fuel cans I was thinking of also creating a refueling pipe and fuel door so the fuel attendant will fill the aux tank with little trouble. A 12 volt fuel pump will supply the main tank on demand via a switch.

Anyone know anyone in China who could handle building a rally quality custom fit tank?????

You can ask Jim Bryant at Classic Sidecars (http://www.bmwsidecar.com/). His custom fabrication is second to none and, of course, he has a deep understanding of sidecars.

My own JH600B is sitting at his shop. Therefore, he has a sample bike to do the measurements for you.

Jim's a member of this forum, but it'd probably be quickest to simply fire him an email, or give him a call.

Question is, extra fuel pump or not?

C

I don't know about that as a solution, a lot of extra weight which means even less performance and efficiency on a relatively low cc bike that is working inefficiently anyway.

How come you are getting such bad fuel performance? Have you talked to Jim about it, are all the side-car folk getting the same? It should just be pretty much engine capacity against weight. Even my old car full of crap on the back seats and with a boot full of tools and fuel cans and the engine management system stuffed only loses 10% against previous. Ethanol mixed fuel seems to cut a bit more too so now unless I am really broke I buy ordinary unleaded and it evens out.

Have you looked carefully at all the carby settings, fuel lines? Not trying to be smart, you may have done all this, but anomalous fuel use is exacerbated by tyre choice, loose chain, extra weight and so on, especially if the weight to power ratio is on the edge anyway. What about gearing, is that optimum for cruising at the speeds you use? My car (sorry to use that as an example but it is a similar idea and I monitor it carefully on a budget) cruises at 90 kph at a much more fuel efficient range than just ten kph more and at 100 kph is far better than at 110 kph. At 90 kph cruising when I can safely do that, I get a good twenty to FIFTY percent more mileage depending on routes and conditions. I have monitored this for a few years now on a strict budget.

And again not trying to teach granma to suck eggs or suggesting you are lead-footed but my GF had a smaller, lighter car yet used as much fuel as me. She is a heavy foot, both pedals, always racing off then braking, driver. That is a waste of energy as she never got anyway quicker than I do!

Can you LOSE weight by taking off side-car or if you use that a lot, replacing panels with aluminium, maybe even rebuild the sidecar, get some lighter wheels and all that?

Jim has tested the JH600B so he'd be a good resource to chat up about the mileage, etc.

I've limited experience with the JH600B, so far, as it is damn cold in Beijing & I am a pansy. Jim, however, rides year round.

My own JH600B had a serious stalling problem. It literally stalled at most traffic lights and on most down shifts. Jialing replaced a couple of sensors and it seems to have resolved the issue.

Without any data, but just a gut feeling, I'd guess that a poorly performing bike (as was the case with my stalling) would also have poor mileage. The bike has EFI and an ECU, so some weak links can create havoc.

According to Jialing, the JH600B fuel efficiency should be better than 5 litres / 100 km.

I do recall Jim commenting once that the rear storage area in the JH600B sidecar is sizable, albeit a little "odd". He had a few ideas. You may wish to discuss some options with him, directly.

Thanks Richard,
Most every sidecar I've seen gets about the same fuel consumption. About 30 ( 8 liters per 100 kms) mpg no matter if it's a big Harley or a minuscule Royal Enfield. If you're not getting 30 mpg, probably something is wrong.

Regds,
Jim
www.bmwsidecar.com

Yes to the fuel pump question from CC... I guess I am getting around 8-9 ltr per 100km. basically around 200 Km per tank. The tank is 19ltr right? I was really hoping for better. I would like to be able to keep up fuel wise with the biker touring bikes. Also I like to build (or have built in this case) cool gadgets....

Well Jimbo, what do you think.... that little depression in the bottom of the Jailing tub in the trunk... I was thinking of filling that area up with a fuel tank(cell). You guys work with aluminum? What do you think about an eternal fuel door flush mounted to the outside of the sidecar. I am obviously I thinking the aux tank to be permanent.

I have an external fuel pump that runs on 12v, but its kind of low volume. idea was while riding when i start to get low on fuel(1 or 2 bars) then I would which on the the transfer put and the fuel would transfer to the main tank while driving and thus keeping me on the road.

steps:

1. design and fab. the aluminum tank

2. design and fab. the refueling point and system(keeping in mind the problems with filling fuel cans in China)

3. Modify the main tank to allow for the fuel transfer. My pump can be flush mounted anywhere and as the ability to pump in either direction.(handy if they won't fill you
aux tank or if you get a bit of bad gas)
4. and then find a way to pay for it all:confused1::lol8:

'fingers,

nice thread. at some point you might want to redo the headline so that this information is easier to find. How about: Auxiliary tank for Jialing JH600B sidecar?

good luck squeezing more mileage out of that chariot!

Hi folks

can't resist to add my two fen to this topic :icon10:

Not that I am an expert for gasoline tanks, but I know that these are pretty complex items.
I have some experience in filling gasoline carrying rail cars - don't laugh, please :lol8:

There are several issues to consider very carefully:

You cannot use just any pump to feed the main tank from the additional barrel. The usual fuel pumps for FI engines operate at pressure levels, which are way higher than useful for feeding. Also, the pump must be made of fuel resistant material.

The extra tank must have air vent and bleeding, ideally labyrinth shaped to avoid water entering.

You must use real fuel hoses, UV resistant, to run from the extra to the main tank.

Consider very carefully where to route the hoses (vibrations, sharp edges, protection against physical impact)

You must have over-fill protection of the main tank. Not easy to achieve as you have to modify the original tank.

Don't forget to add dry run protection for the feed pump. Nothing worse than an overheating pump in a gas tank which carries fumes.

Very carefully examine how to let the feeding line enter the main tank. Again, you have to modify the original tank.

Material and manufacturing method of the additional tank is another point to carefully think of. Un-treated Aluminium is not the perfect material for a fuel tank. Avoid weldings as much as you can. Stainless steel is probably the best material, but not easy to deal with.

Consider tank insulation to avoid condensation inside the tank.


Not that I want to mess up your plans :rolleyes1:

Very interesting thread indeed! Andy that's some pretty useful info, you're a handy guy to have on the forum! Good luck with the project shanghaifingers, i hope it comes together. I'll certainly be watching this thread.

Hey Guys,

sorry I have been away riding a Chang from Xiamen to Sanya(more on that in the ride report later).

Chinabiker, thanks for the input. The 12volt pump in question is used as an eternal self contained fuel transfer pump. Its flow is reversible and its on the low volume type.(overflows would require real effort). I will skip the insulation on the tank, not really necessary as even the main tank does not have it.... or any of my bikes main tanks. The tank will be filled and emptied regularly with normal use and I will certainly apply an gas tank treatment to insure that the aluminum tank does not have problems. I think I will give Jimbo a ring and see what he can build for me (FYI JIMBO i AM CALLING SOON!) Have not given much thought to how to get the fuel into the main tank yet but I am sure i can formulate a plan after starring at the bike for awhile. The main tank on the Jailing i believe has the same basic overflow protection that most bikes have which is the the hole on a lip near the mouth of the tank and an attached hose that allows the excess fuel incurred during refueling to leak out via the tube and down below the bike and not up and out the mouth. Simply monitoring of the refuel is need to avoid this problem. The fuel pump is "dry pump" it does not require the fuel to act as a coolant, so I have no fear of a dry pump creating a fire hazard. In addition I will also be adding a external 3 point switch to control the pump and a 2 color LED to indicate the pump is active and in which direction.

Since this tank would be permanent, i think it would be cool to salvage a fuel fill from a car including the fuel cap and door to make a completely factory look for refueling the sidecar tank. The hope is that gas stations across China would not make a fuss over refilling the aux. tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers

Hey Guys,

sorry I have been away riding a Chang from Xiamen to Sanya(more on that in the ride report later).

Chinabiker, thanks for the input. The 12volt pump in question is used as an eternal self contained fuel transfer pump. Its flow is reversible and its on the low volume type.(overflows would require real effort). I will skip the insulation on the tank, not really necessary as even the main tank does not have it.... or any of my bikes main tanks. The tank will be filled and emptied regularly with normal use and I will certainly apply an gas tank treatment to insure that the aluminum tank does not have problems. I think I will give Jimbo a ring and see what he can build for me (FYI JIMBO i AM CALLING SOON!) Have not given much thought to how to get the fuel into the main tank yet but I am sure i can formulate a plan after starring at the bike for awhile. The main tank on the Jailing i believe has the same basic overflow protection that most bikes have which is the the hole on a lip near the mouth of the tank and an attached hose that allows the excess fuel incurred during refueling to leak out via the tube and down below the bike and not up and out the mouth. Simply monitoring of the refuel is need to avoid this problem. The fuel pump is "dry pump" it does not require the fuel to act as a coolant, so I have no fear of a dry pump creating a fire hazard. In addition I will also be adding a external 3 point switch to control the pump and a 2 color LED to indicate the pump is active and in which direction.

Since this tank would be permanent, i think it would be cool to salvage a fuel fill from a car including the fuel cap and door to make a completely factory look for refueling the sidecar tank. The hope is that gas stations across China would not make a fuss over refilling the aux. tank.

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Two way operation will require double dry run and overfill protection.
When you let the pump feeding fuel from the aux to the main, it will suck the liquid from the bottom of the aux tank and deliver it to the top of the main. How would you do this in reverse direction?

If you feed from and supply to the bottom of both tanks, the aux, which is probably lower, would be filled against the will of the pump, hence with overfill protection by-passed. Also one way valves can't be used in this case.

You need to modify your original tank on two positions :eekers:
Where would be your pump located.

Better get a motorbike tank inlet stud. These are way more sophisticated than car ones.
Generally, wouldn't be this one the easy solution :lol8::lol8::lol8:

http://img.weiku.com/IMG/2010/8/28/p...rry_Can_v0.jpg

Well interesting questions.... the Jerry can is of course easier but as I said a like to build cool stuff.... I am going to test the pump tonight by building a mock up of the design. built in scale with the bike. So a 19ltr or more tank about 1/2 meter up and 2 meters away(compensating for actual fuel hose routing) and a 10ltr lower tank both with bottom fill and suction. The pump should still be able to move the fuel of in the test case water(water is heavier).... good food for thought.... I might just just pump the fuel to the top of the main tank via one line and a second line allow gravity to care fuel in the other direction. So thats pump aux to top of main and gravity bottom of Main to Aux.

another problem found is that I will need to protect the fuel line that pass between the sidecar and the motorcycle from the abuses of the outside world... I guess protective. pipe work or something must be made up as well.

Then again the possibility of a permanent tank with none permanent fuel lines is possible. Simply mount the pump and cut the fuel lines as needed and when needed place them into the tanks through the top openings and manually adjust the height for either direction of transfer by sliding less or more fuel line into the respective tanks. Doing it this way simplifies the build but complicates the actual use. I would also then not need the LEDs or the heavy pipe work for protection......

Huummmm.... where did I put that old Jerry Can:lol8:

Fingers,
I gotta go with chinabiker with something like this:
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x...l_neb_petr.jpg
or this:
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x..._bottle_v0.jpg
Throw a couple in the boot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers

another problem found is that I will need to protect the fuel line that pass between the sidecar and the motorcycle from the abuses of the outside world... I guess protective. pipe work or something must be made up as well.

Then again the possibility of a permanent tank with none permanent fuel lines is possible. Simply mount the pump and cut the fuel lines as needed and when needed place them into the tanks through the top openings and manually adjust the height for either direction of transfer by sliding less or more fuel line into the respective tanks. Doing it this way simplifies the build but complicates the actual use. I would also then not need the LEDs or the heavy pipe work for protection......

Huummmm.... where did I put that old Jerry Can:lol8:

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why do you make such a big effort to burn down your bike? a simple lighter is also doing a fine job.
maybe the admin should move this thread to "Comedy"

No, no, we wouldn't dream of that! In fact we encourage exploration and experimentation - and the wearing of helmet cams at all times, so our members can all share the fun if/when disasters happen!

Perhaps a variation on this idea using small fuel containers would do the job? You could always get your passenger to wear it in the interest of driver safety!
Attachment 2982

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers

.... the Jerry can is of course easier but as I said a like to build cool stuff....

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Fingers, I like to build cool stuff too :icon10: perfect cool stuff :thumbsup:

I'll contct you for more after CNY :deal:

This sounds like a project I don't have the skills to fabricate. What I could suggest are the auxiliary gas tanks for BMWs that I see on E-Bay every now and then. They are twin small tanks that fit on the frame of the bike where the battery covers are.
Regds,
Jim
www.bmwsidecar.com