battery tenders & chargers

OK, it's winter up here in China and the rest of the northern hemisphere, meaning a lot of our bikes are spending most of their time sheltering in cold garages. For other reasons, I'd not ridden my JH600 since August, and had disconnected the battery leads in hopes of preserving the battery through the winter or until I'm ready to ride, whichever came first.

I was surprised that the reconnected battery had enough juice to turn the engine, but almost immediately the battery light came on and it was clear there was not enough current (or is that voltage) to fire the fuel injection system. So I took the battery to a neighborhood scooter garage (aka totally chaotic fright shop with everything from tools to discarded parts to new product to last night's dinner piled in heaps on the floor). The guy said he could charge me in 30 minutes for 5 kuai. An hour later it was back in the bike and she -- shazzam! -- wouldn't you know she fired up right good, first try. :clap:

I let her idle for about 10 minutes, thinking I'd be good for another start so I could run out for some gas and other errands on an almost warm Shanghai afternoon. Newbie mistake? When I came back all geared up, there wasn't enough juice to fire the injectors or plug (or both).

So here's my question: Given that there are more months of winter and more months before my shoulder is healthy enough for longer rides, she's likely to be sitting for more long spells before we're back to a battery-friendly healthy riding schedule. What's the best way to coddle a 12v motorcycle battery during long periods of disuse?

Riders in the US all seem to have Battery Tenders or Trickle Chargers that I guess you, what, keep attached to the battery all winter? I've checked eBay and taobao and see there are differences between what's available in China and in the US. US chargers seem to be bigger and fancier, costing $40 or so. China's look like laptop power supplies and cost 40 RMB or less! Both talk about having microcircuitry that calibrates the correct charging voltage, current and duration to optimize battery life.

Are these things worthwhile? Or should I just head back to the local scootery for another 5 kuai charge? :seesaw_smilie:

Here's an article saying you should keep your battery connected to a tender all winter.

What's a good strategy here in China, especially if we are limited to local products?

thanks in advance!

To some extent it depends on the battery. A good battery can survive different conditions whether it is old fashioned lead acid or modern gel type. A bad battery just fails, sometimes slowly, sometimes fast. Vibration, poor alternator, abuse, overuse, all kill 'em!

The best way is in fact to simply disconnect when fully charged and keep in a cold, dark place! A good battery will last over winter no problems and I know this from years of experience without power here before I paid for mains connection! Importantly, it will need to come up to room temperature to give good amps when reconnected, if still cold it may not give enough power even if still a good battery.

The best 'tenders' are the proven 4WD type or marine battery 'managers' that will read the type, state and condition of all your batteries and provide charge to them all of whatever type, whichever, whenever. But if you only have one vehicle to watch then the cheapest China types should do as long as they are sold as 'automatic float chargers' NOT just as trickle chargers which can cook the thing. The 'automatic' ones check the battery state, charge as needed, do not overcharge. The circuitry is not complicated, the components not necessarily sophisticated for such a job.

Batteries fail for more than one reason but losing charge right down, in most standard batteries, will certainly shorten their life. Then you cannot bring them back successfully. In some cases of lead acid batteries a good clean and new electrolyte will work. Sealed batteries don't allow this. I think they are so essential and important for safety with lights, indicator and horn as much as starting power that a good quality battery is a good investment though. It took 2 cheap chinese batteries failing (from the dealers) before I finally paid out myself for a good one (which was still Chinese). So get advice on makes available over there.

The 'ideal' is a 3 stage charger and good quality batteries. So cost is just a choice, cheapo should be fine, to be quite sure, you spend on all components!

Is the battery in a dark place? I ask because for many years I have just used a very cheap solar trickle charger and it keeps both bike and car batteries up to par. But we get enough sun even in winter here and I have a small light bulb in the circuit which drains it down a bit every night so it doesn't ever overcharge. Very occasionally if required I 'boost' it at 10 amps.

An afterthought, some computer engine controllers require the battery left in the circuit so read what the manual says for the JH, don't know how sophisticated that is electronically speaking.

Thanks, Jape. It's a good quality lead acid battery that has always given strong charge, though this is its first winter of disuse. I'll see if I can find a decent tender in Taobao, and just keep the battery in my flat and on the tender until I'm ready to be riding regularly again.

Would love to have a recommendation if there are any taobao denizens with good ideas.

Would have been nice to get out and ride today, but wasn't in the cards.

cheers

I added the bit in yellow after you read it Jeff, note the bit about temperature, many good batteries get dumped because of this point. I always reread and adjust my posts as I think more, but this is drawing upon years of experience with batteries of all kinds and no mains power and I have tried ALL the devices.

Very much respect your experience. I disconnected both leads back in the late summer, and the battery sat there in the bike, in the dark, in a cool (now cold) garage. But it lost a good bit of its spunk. I probably will replace it eventually with a good-quality gel battery, especially if it starts having problems. I would like to give it one good charge (not the 30-minute special I got), and see how that holds up. Just don't know how to go about doing this -- both the device to do it and the method.

I do like those Battery Tenders but I've not found any outlets here in China.

thanks!

... and to go on a bit more, this is my current (lol) battery and it is the best I have ever had. Because of my back at times I cannot ride for up to six months,
Never had a starting problem since I got this battery.
http://www.yucell.com/index.html

Its about power, fast charge needs higher amperage so the 500milliamp ones won't do that, nor will a 1.5 or 2 amp.
However the fast charge is where many batteries get their problems. Modern VRLA batteries (no unscrewable tops but not gel) might even expand under such a boost as gases cannot combine quickly enough. But a good long 2 amp charge will maybe bring it back as long as the device has an overcharge cut-off and I think most would in this day and age.. You won't know until you try I suppose!

I saw lots of 3 stage/3 step intelligent battery chargers on taobao. 2.5 amp about 50 yuan.
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...__igj82OIJC_3w

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphonius

Very much respect your experience. I disconnected both leads back in the late summer, and the battery sat there in the bike, in the dark, in a cool (now cold) garage. But it lost a good bit of its spunk. I probably will replace it eventually with a good-quality gel battery, especially if it starts having problems. I would like to give it one good charge (not the 30-minute special I got), and see how that holds up. Just don't know how to go about doing this -- both the device to do it and the method.

I do like those Battery Tenders but I've not found any outlets here in China.

thanks!

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Jape,
Is compnets in this circuit reasonable ?
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=3318074971
http://www40.babidou.com/pic/2008/12...q/12V1.8dl.jpg

Cannot see inside black box!

蓄电池全自动充电器 so maybe OK as it says 'automatic'

It doesn't say if 3 stage, doesn't say if anti-reverse, doesn't say if overcharge protect.

It is 1.8 amps so it is cheaper than 2.5 amps

Common config in 2.5A
http://www40.babidou.com/pic/2008/12...5%A3%B3/05.jpg

I use this from Harbor Freight;

Attachment 3076

Found here; http://www.harborfreight.com/automat...ger-42292.html


So far it's been working for me. I use it on two batteries. I just move the clips from one to the other every week or so. And guess where it's made.......?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by humanbeing

Common config in 2.5A
http://www40.babidou.com/pic/2008/12...5%A3%B3/05.jpg

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Very pretty, lots of soldering on the other side with this board, would be hand-done still in China? Well I can at least see what looks like a couple of Zener diodes that should handle any accidental reverse connection and protect it and a nice big heat-sink so it probably won't burst into flames under heavy draw especially as I cannot easily recognise any protective thermisters in this pic, though they could be there, and it has lots of diodes to rectify from AC to DC. The rest is chip controlled so I have no idea from this if it is three stage or not! You speak the language, you could email them and ask?

Please note, this is not for use if you have or get an AGM battery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by david3921

I use this from Harbor Freight;
Found here; http://www.harborfreight.com/automat...ger-42292.html

So far it's been working for me. I use it on two batteries. I just move the clips from one to the other every week or so. And guess where it's made.......?

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This seems had more fuction & that seller is in SH
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=9175628938

Thanks, HB. That looks like a solid charger. I'm quite skeptical about those little electronic ones, with very think wires and cheap circuitry. Batteries and electricity are mysterious things!

by the way, where are you based?

cheers

have a look over at our friends place and explore these new batteries, available technology changing all the time!

http://www.chinariders.com/modules.p...=115603#115603

Thanks, Jape. I'm holding off on buying a new battery for now. I expect mine has some life in it yet. Just frustrated that I don't have the means to give it a good deep charge.

I talked to the folks who sell the charger that humanbeing pointed out, and expect to have one by Thursday. will keep you posted.

cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphonius

by the way, where are you based...

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HK born. Roots from Zhongshan (Fujian acutally hundred yrs ago :eek2:). Mother tongue is "mixed language" called Longdu, so had advantage understand other souther in "native" talk. Ride w/o DL in mainland when working there yrs ago. Current HK bike is Honda CBF150 still on "scarlet P" (Midlife crisis... makes me re-think & take that "pain" DL test finally. )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphonius

... holding off on buying a new battery ...

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http://gqgtech.taobao.com/ BJ & TJ w/ FREE shipping
When will we meet that "lab rat" here? :lol8:

OK, got it. So at least you are in our (China) time zone. Do you ever get up to Shanghai? Would be great to meet.

Longdu sounds like a very unusual dialect. Surely your Cantonese is excellent, but can you also understand the Northern and Southern Min dialects in Fujian and Taiwan? I have friends in Fujian who complain they cannot undertand Min dialects in the next village, much less the next county. Min must rank is one of most opaque language groups on earth.

As for those batteries -- whew! 4000 rmb for a battery!!! -- I really think that all I need is a good charge....

cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by euphonius

...understand the Northern and Southern Min dialects in Fujian and Taiwan? I have friends in Fujian who complain they cannot undertand Min dialects in the next village...

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For example "ti" or "tu" are BOTH correct 4 "Pig" . IF u don't know other form... :naughty: Common mixed form :Amoy/ Generic Taiwanese used in city - very EASY. My old man luv watching those "boring" Taiwanese TV drama.
Other example "#116" "blog" support it.
Custom are also similar: Eat "Zongzi" in "ghost festival".

Another advantage with ~250cc engines. Kickstart! Battery dies, no problem.. kickstart... ride for thirty minutes to get breakfast in a new part of town you've never been to and you've got a charged up battery.

Hi Jeff,

I brought back from the States an authentic Battery Tender, which unfortunately runs only 110VAC. It was stupid of me to have discovered that only after getting back to SH. I am waiting for a converter (变压器) purchased off Taobao. THe converter is probably a bit lower tech than the multi-phase trickle charger. I will give the combination a try when the converter comes in tomorrow. If you just want a few re-charges, I can lend it to you. I actually replaced my perfectly good original JH600 battery with a new one based on a recommendation by 刘志东 (remember my restart problem, which turns out to be the NGK spark plug). According to him the new battery is the same version that runs on some BMW motorcycles. By the way, if your battery is not salvageable, i can let you have my original one (waiting on a re-charge as well).
Cheers.

Milton, many USA devices have a switch, sometimes under a plate on the back, for going from 110 to 220 volts! Not saying you are stupid but many folk do not even know of this and these threads get read by many. If you checked for that and it doesn't have this switch you can often get some devices rewired easily.

You can just use a simple step-down 220 to 110 converter as you have bought, that should be fine as long as you looked at the wattage the tender uses and got one in that range. In layman's terms, Watts = Volts x Amps P = V I

You should also look at the 'herz' in these cases as some are 50, some are 60 and they do not always match up or work just by changing voltage. You can get more expensive devices will transform/convert and match frequencies. Always get electrical advice for two reasons: wrong wattage can cause a fire, easily, wrong frequency can f**k up sensitive equipment including some types of battery (which can even have circuitry built into them)!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slabo

Another advantage with ~250cc engines. Kickstart! Battery dies, no problem.. kickstart... ride for thirty minutes to get breakfast in a new part of town you've never been to and you've got a charged up battery.

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Kickstart is great for carbureted bikes, but I don't think it would work with EFI, since the electronics demand a clean 12 volts and sufficient current to run properly. After five months of disuse, my battery still has enough juice to turn the engine in the cold case, but the voltage is insufficient to light up the injector. So I'm assuming that a kickstarter is a nonstarter with EFI -- unless you have an extremely strong leg!

But your message is spot on: High tech isn't always better tech.

cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jape

Milton, many USA devices have a switch, sometimes under a plate on the back, for going from 110 to 220 volts! Not saying you are stupid but many folk do not even know of this and these threads get read by many. If you checked for that and it doesn't have this switch you can often get some devices rewired easily.

You can just use a simple step-down 220 to 110 converter as you have bought, that should be fine as long as you looked at the wattage the tender uses and got one in that range. In layman's terms, Watts = Volts x Amps P = V I

You should also look at the 'herz' in these cases as some are 50, some are 60 and they do not always match up or work just by changing voltage. You can get more expensive devices will transform/convert and match frequencies. Always get electrical advice for two reasons: wrong wattage can cause a fire, easily, wrong frequency can f**k up sensitive equipment including some types of battery (which can even have circuitry built into them)!

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I have looked at the back of the Tender, which is clearly marked for input as 110V and without a switch for different voltage settings. I don't remember what the frequency spec is. Need to go home and check. Just looked up the Wikipedia and found that China is 50hz versus the States at 60hz. The converter is marked for frequency range 50hz to 60hz. Now I am wondering what that "frequency range" means. Does it mean that it doesn't care what the input frequency is as long as it is in the range, in which case the voltage will be stepped down as advertised? But does it also convert the frequency from 60 to 50 (unlikely)? Would the tender (actually a Battery Tender Junior, rated output 12V 750mA) survive the 60hz? Argh, headache.
The converter is rated at 100W, which should give it plenty of head room.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milton

I have looked at the back of the Tender, which is clearly marked for input as 110V and without a switch for different voltage settings. I don't remember what the frequency spec is. Need to go home and check. Just looked up the Wikipedia and found that China is 50hz versus the States at 60hz. The converter is marked for frequency range 50hz to 60hz. Now I am wondering what that "frequency range" means. Does it mean that it doesn't care what the input frequency is as long as it is in the range, in which case the voltage will be stepped down as advertised? But does it also convert the frequency from 60 to 50 (unlikely)? Would the tender (actually a Battery Tender Junior, rated output 12V 750mA) survive the 60hz? Argh, headache.
The converter is rated at 100W, which should give it plenty of head room.

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That frequency range means it is suitable for 50 to 60 Hz rated frequency with usual tolerances of +- 10% appr. 45 to 65 Hz, so no problem.
It will step down the voltage as specified (hopefully :lol8:) but highly likely it will not change the frequency. Since you bought the tender in the US, it should be made for 60Hz, and as long as the frequency doesn't go over 70 and below 40, you'll be fine.

Yeah, sorry, I don't like to just worry folk without also proposing a solution! And in all honesty the details of theory have long gone from my brain, was thirty years ago I got my certification and it was mainly intended for guided missiles and the like at the time ...

I would guess the frequency is not so critical in a battery tender, however all devices include electronics these days so there is a small risk. I just wouldn't use cheap converters/transformers and such stuff on something like a laptop or TV. Also with the power, to get the output of 12v x 750 milliamps, the input draw may well be 110v x I amp for example because of losses and all that stuff, so 100 watts is close. Just place it on concrete not a wooden desk, watch it and if it gets hot rather than warm, switch off! Sorry to be a downer, just being careful mate. Hopefully someone else is more up to date than me and can reassure you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milton

... it also convert the frequency from 60 to 50 (unlikely)? Would the tender (actually a Battery Tender Junior, rated output 12V 750mA) survive the 60hz? Argh, headache.
The converter is rated at 100W, which should give it plenty of head room.

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Majority had SMPS which is EASY to modify to 220V if had electronicns background. (TV repair guy from Anhui are EVERwhere in China) Btw: smps DON'T care input frequency BUT "old tech" trasnformer cares : Designed for 60hz (Had Lesser Iron ) that ran on 50hz will be hotter.

What happened in the end mate? I see you got it started and went for a cobweb loosener yesterday?

Thanks, Jape. In the end I took humanbeing's suggestion and picked up this deluxe charger:

http://img02.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/...!!50533076.jpg

Set me back less than US$30, and gave the battery a long, luxurious, full charge. The bike liked this very much, and fired right to life in the first go. (Leave a bike unridden for many months and it gets as many cobwebs as you do as rider.)

Weather should gradually warm over the next couple of months, though spring is rainy in Shanghai, so I'm hoping to be on the bike regularly -- at least a couple times a week, when it's dry. I've got a very nice big Adlo top box, as recommended by bikerdoc, so the bike now is practical for daily runs around town, giving me a bit wider scope than with the bicycle. (Though I hasten to add that there's almost nowhere in urban Shanghai that's out of reach by bicycle; suburban, exurban, sprawling Shanghai which probably would even include Suzhou is another story...)

The riding was uneventful. I'm riding a bit cautiously, which is my style anyway, given my status as a relative newbie with a self-inflicted getoff still in recent memory. I'm also mindful of the shank in my shoulder and the need to avoid falling on that region again, at least until the shank has been extracted (and turned into a keyring) and the bone fully healed. So I took her out for a soapy bath in Jiaoji Lu, so she's all pretty again.

I felt a little rear tire slippage in one turn on dry pavement, so I'm starting to feel traction-challenged and will open a new thread soon on tire choices in China (which is a very different discussion from just "tire choices", since so many are not available here, especially for my wheels -- 130/80-17 and 100/90-19). Milton bought me some hand guards that need to be installed, and with 8000km on the bike I need to pay attention to the drive train and a few other things.

But truth be told, the bike felt great and really ran almost like new. I'm still very, very pleased with this Jialing JH600!

cheers