QM200GY idle problem, valve clearances.

Although very happy with my Qingqi-Qlink-Sinnis-Pulse adrenaline-Superbyke, etc QM200GY super motard so far,
I was never comfortable with the abscence of valve clearance check and/or adjustment in the makers handbook
maintenance schedule.

The Spanish importer tells me it's not required, EVER. Having ridden and
maintained bikes and cars for over 30 years I know this is pure bullsh*t, but
finally managed to get the settings out of him.

They told me 0.5 inlet and 0.8 exhaust. When I laughed at the ridiculously
large clearances for a Japanese-derived bike engine, the service manager went quiet,
consulted some papers and came up with the more reasonable 0.05 and 0.08. This, I reluctantly accepted.

As I am unable to locate a workshop manual for the Qingqi I bought one for its nearest equivalent,
the Suzuki DR200SE and learned there that Suzuki's clearances for both inlet and exhaust are 0.08 to 0.13 mm.

Thinking this was strange I searched through many forums, in several languages
and using the various names Qingqis are sold as in different countries.

I came across contributor "Catastrophyx" advice, backed by Qingqi Sweden,
concerning the problem with burned valves and advice to set them at inlet 0.10 and exhaust 0.15 mm.
Like all information that could be useful for future reference I copied the
messages to my desktop and forgot about it.

From 500 km onwards the bike started dying out ocassionally on stopping for
traffic lights, junctions, etc, and it re-started with some difficulty and in a
lazy sort of manner, being reluctant to rev up or respond properly to the
throttle. There was also a sort of low speed jerkiness. At speed, once under
way, it ran well and also from cold starts.
The idle speed was also badly affected by turning on the lights, making it
necessary to set the idle speed high with them off to avoid the idle becoming
too low with the lights on.
This is fairly normal on small engines with a low power output, but I thought
that a 200cc 4-stroke would have enough torque at idle to cope with an
electrical load of about 50 or 60 watts.

After wasting several days re-adjusting carburettor, cleaning and dismantling,
checking float chamber level, air leaks, ignition system, changing plugs,
testing breather hole in petrol cap, fuel flow from tank, etc, etc, I was about
to give up and just accept that I was beaten when I remembered my notes
about valve clearances. These I did not think to check at such an early mileage.

Before doing so I searched the Net to see if incorrect clearances could affect
things like the tickover and finding that it definitely could, I rushed to my
garage to check them out.
I found that they were at 0.04 and 0.06 respectively, probably adjusted to
the standard 0.05 and 0.08 in the factory, but due to initial valve seat settlement or recession,
they had closed up in 660 Km.

I decided to reset them to the figures according to the advice of the Swedish
Qingqi importer and forum contributor "CathastrophiX" (IN 0.10-EX 0.15mm).

I'm happy to say that this has cured all the troubles, the bike runs like a
sewing machine and the idle speed is now steady and totally reliable.
It also pulls much better from low revs.
I just hope that I caught it on time, avoiding a burned or damaged valve seat,
but for now hope that this advice is read by others with similar symptoms and acted upon without delay.

Forch,

That's great news! I can't believe people tell experienced riders things like: "The valves never need adjustment." Not sure if I should be insulted or not.

Glad it solved your problems and I also experienced a bit of this on the black 200GY I had, which is now ChinaV's. He'll be happy to know this will likely solve the erratic idle and stalling problem.

You have any trouble doing the adjustment? How long did it take? Got pics? :icon10:

CC

I can reproduce a post from the same chap that gave the clearance advice. I hope he doesn't mind.
The procedure is just right with the exception that I took off the tank as it doesn't take long and you can see things better:

Adjusted the valves on my QM200GY today. You don´t have to remove the tank or plastics to do this, (it´s fiddly but doable).
You need:
17 mm ring spanner
10 mm ring spanner
Screwdriver bit
10 mm Allen wrench
17 mm socket
0,10 and 0,15 mm measure blades?

Remove the two valve inspection caps on the top of the engine (17 mm)
Remove the chrome inspection bolt on top of the left crank case (17 mm).
Remove the allen cap (10 mm) in the center of the left crank case.
Use the 17 mm socket to turn the engine over until the mark on the fly wheel matches the TDC mark on the crankcase. (Make sure you´re on the right stroke).

Then you can adjust your valves to these clearances:
IN 0,10 mm
EX 0,15 mm

The locking nut is 10 mm, use the screwdriver bit to turn the pin.

If your hands are too big, it´s easier if you remove the right tank plastic (3 philips screws), the gas wire from the carburettor and the rubber hose (that goes from the "EGR" valve to the air box) from the air box.


By the way his signature is "Failure is always an option", but don't let it worry you:lol8:

Although for a different bike, there's a good tutorial on a thread in another China bike forum. The engine and adjuster layout is very similar to the Qingqi:

http://www.chinariders.net/modules.p...ewtopic&t=1655

If you wish to control clearance valves, first of all it is necessary to remove Spark plug.
Further unscrew covers from windows of adjustment of valves.
Unscrew a cover which closes access to the screw of twirl of the crankshaft (from the left party engine).
Into a window of installation Spark plug put in a long screw-driver and very easily rest it against the piston.
Twirl the crankshaft a tubular key through a window in the left party engine. It is necessary to twirl only counter-clockwise. One arm twirl the crankshaft and other arm control a position of the piston using a long screw-driver. As soon as the piston will reach the overhead point - stop twirl and test the arm a free course both rocker arm. If the free course is at both rocker arm, begin adjustment clearance valves. If you could not lift and haul down freely inlet and exhaust rocker arm - continue to twirl the crankshaft up to a following overhead point and again test a free course rocker arm.

In Ukraine the big community of owners qingqi-motard. A lot of the interesting information on qingqi-motard you can find on http://www.motodrive.com.ua/forum/in...ic=6395&st=740

http://cs181.vkontakte.ru/u6702112/1...x_7ed0f87e.jpg
:scooter: :icon10:

This just in....

The official valve clearance spec for the QingQi 200cc motor is...
<drum roll>

.06 to .08mm for both intake and exhaust.

In other news, they have finished testing their new 250cc motor and sent some specs which need to be translated.

More on this later...

CC

Hi Carl! Very interesting what Forchetto said previously, about his results with the more generous clearances he have tried and seemed to work so well for him. Know of any possible reason the official recommended clearances differ so much? Is it normal for this kind of engine to get out of adjustment so early as 660 km?
Thanks in advance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MotoDrunken

Hi Carl! Very interesting what Forchetto said previously, about his results with the more generous clearances he have tried and seemed to work so well for him. Know of any possible reason the official recommended clearances differ so much? Is it normal for this kind of engine to get out of adjustment so early as 660 km?
Thanks in advance.

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Sorry to answer instead of Carl, but I've owned many 4-strokes in the past and I've never had an engine that needed the valves adjusting this early. Perhaps they had not settled with recession, but were simply too tight from the factory.
My experience is that the valve clearances tend to open up with mileage, not close up.
The settings I mentioned in the main post (IN 0.10mm EX 0.15mm) work well enough, but produce a noticeable clicking sound when hot. Don't know if that will accelerate wear on the valve gear to any extent.
Now it seems as if Qingqi have decided on another set of clearances...I wish they made their mind up... Can't help thinking that as this is a Suzuki DR200 like engine, why are the specs not the same?. I can only assume that they fit a different camshaft to reduce power output, the same way the Suzi has a 31 mm carb against the Qingqi's 28mm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

Sorry to answer instead of Carl, but I've owned many 4-strokes in the past and I've never had an engine that needed the valves adjusting this early. Perhaps they had not settled with recession, but were simply too tight from the factory.
My experience is that the valve clearances tend to open up with mileage, not close up.
The settings I mentioned in the main post (IN 0.10mm EX 0.15mm) work well enough, but produce a noticeable clicking sound when hot. Don't know if that will accelerate wear on the valve gear to any extent.
Now it seems as if Qingqi have decided on another set of clearances...I wish they made their mind up... Can't help thinking that as this is a Suzuki DR200 like engine, why are the specs not the same?. I can only assume that they fit a different camshaft to reduce power output, the same way the Suzi has a 31 mm carb against the Qingqi's 28mm.

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Don´t mention it. Your comment is really appreciated. What I´m thinking up right now is that it will really suck to get beaten by a not-as-trick-looking-Suzuki DR200SE. Qingqi manufacturing and design efforts don´t deserve that. Why in this God`s Planet Earth did they choose to give their engines a lower power output? It really goes beyond my comprehension. From a practical point of view: Could we upgrade the motor to current Suzuki standards by switching parts or even exceed Big Yellow performance? Just curious to ask (but dying of anxiety about having a positive response). I better go to bed. Wife´s getting upset. Good night Pal.:confused1:

Part of the power restrictions on the 200GY's may come from the company stressing the ability for these machines to pass American and European emissions standards. There's a lot of sweating going on now by some manufacturers because they are affraid the only way to pass the new Euro standards is to move to Fuel Injection....but it takes years to sort out FI on bikes. Even many of the big Japanese companies still haven't work their out yet.

Be honest with you guys, my guess is there's no sure way to tell if Zuki parts will work with no problems without trying it.

I would think sticking a DR200 carb on it would be the first step, then install a DR cam or head. I know other parts like wheels and headlight can be succesfully changed over but, as far as I know, no one has tried swapping engine parts from a DR200.

I guess the idea thing would be to take a DR200 and QM200GY side by side and document their dissasembly. I don't have access to the resources so can't do it imyself.

Qingqi might not be able to officially say whether or not the parts are directly swappable. To legally release these engines under Qingqi name, one could assume that there is a licensing agreement between Suzuki and QQ. This may require lower output engines as part of the deal but I can't verify that.

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Part of the power restrictions on the 200GY's may come from the company stressing the ability for these machines to pass American and European emissions standards. There's a lot of sweating going on now by some manufacturers because they are affraid the only way to pass the new Euro standards is to move to Fuel Injection....but it takes years to sort out FI on bikes. Even many of the big Japanese companies still haven't work their out yet.

Be honest with you guys, my guess is there's no sure way to tell if Zuki parts will work with no problems without trying it.

I would think sticking a DR200 carb on it would be the first step, then install a DR cam or head. I know other parts like wheels and headlight can be succesfully changed over but, as far as I know, no one has tried swapping engine parts from a DR200.


I guess the idea thing would be to take a DR200 and QM200GY side by side and document their dissasembly. I don't have access to the resources so can't do it imyself.

Qingqi might not be able to officially say whether or not the parts are directly swappable. To legally release these engines under Qingqi name, one could assume that there is a licensing agreement between Suzuki and QQ. This may require lower output engines as part of the deal but I can't verify that.

CC

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Thank you Carl, but it still plain sucks! I know of other brands (as Cagiva) that at some times (don`t know if they still keep doing this) have used Suzuki engines. The best example I can remember right now is the Cagiva Raptor, which uses a TL 1000 engine, and if I remember correctly, it even makes more power in the Raptor form. Still dissapointed if what you said got to be true. Well, at the end, the really important thing is the ride. If I had bought this bike for power and speed I would be more lost than a lice in a doll`s head. I have my Yamaha R6 for that.:naughty:

thank you guys for the specs. i am taking my xf200 into the dealer next week for 4,000 mile maintenance. i am a little late as i wanted to get there sooner as i am experiencing power/top end loss and some idling issues. i was worried it was either some crap stuck int he carb or clutch slippage as it stutters at top speed once in a while now.

but since reading this thread i am confident that the valves need adjusting since they are making more noise than usual. i am also going to add a fuel filter!!!

if the stuttering persists i will look in the carb. i was planning on going down a notch on the jetting anyways for fuel consumption as the 135 seems to be overkill!!!

i will be using the specs to judge the dealerships knowledge. up to this point they have been great. i am just curious what they will say.

Great. Do let us know what they say.

If the valve clearance adjustment doesn't clear the idling problems, take a look at the ACV, also variously called "Coasting Enrichener", "Transient Enrichment Circuit" (Suzuki), or simply ACV (Air Cut-Off Valve).
This is a device on the left hand side of the carb, just behind the choke lever that looks like a lump held by 3 screws (extremely tight, had to use an impact driver).
On CV carbs that are very lean jetted to comply with emissions legislation there was a problem when you decelerate from high revs. The mixture becomes so weak that it caused "popping" on the exhaust. This is of no consequence, but it looks and sounds bad to the sophisticated and refined Jap bike customer...
The idle circuit comprises an idle gas jet and an idle air jet. This is fed from two air channels. One of them passes through the ACV and during normal running and idling remains open. On strong deceleration the high vacuum formed in the intake manifold operates a diaphragm against a spring inside the valve that closes off one of the air paths. This causes the idle mixture to enrich and stops the popping that the weak mixture would cause.
In practice this valve causes all sort of problems, (just Google using its various names), lots of people just eliminate it as one of the problems it causes is the difficulty in adjusting the idle and slow running mixture. The valve keeps meddling and changing the idle mixture on its own.

If the idle problem symptoms are that, normally, in your garage or street, the engine responds well to the throttle with no hesitation, and returns normally to idle after a burst of throttle, BUT on the road and after decelerating from a high gear and stopping, the engine just dies or it doesn't respond well to "blipping" the throttle in the usual manner to drop down a gear, but it responds instantly once stopped, this valve could be the trouble.

This is one of the best articles I've seen explaining how it works and methods of removing it when it doesn't:

http://www.thumperfaq.com/acv.htm


This is what's inside the valve, I know it doesn't look much, but you'll be surprised at how much it costs, $30 to $40...In my case I only found the trouble was a blocked airway caused by the carb ingesting a bit of the yellow foam from the air filter that had fallen off, but I'm considering eliminating it.


http://www.cyclewareables.com/pages/...s/aircut28.jpg

By the way, adding a fuel filter may be a good idea. I couldn't see one but assumed it was built-in the gas tap, but there isn't one there either.

Volks....

Is this the first time adjusting the valves?

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by volksjagger

but since reading this thread i am confident that the valves need adjusting since they are making more noise than usual. i am also going to add a fuel filter!!! ....
i will be using the specs to judge the dealerships knowledge. up to this point they have been great. i am just curious what they will say.

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Decided to take the plunge and do the valve adjustment this weekend. I took some notes and pictures so people can see it's really not that difficult. I'm fairly sure all the Chinese motorcycles use a rocker arm design. The benefits of this are lower manufacturing costs and easy adjustments. The downside being more frequent adjustments and accelerated wear on the guides due to lateral friction.

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix011.jpg

The shim under bucket design that is found in most modern motorcycles requires less maintenance, but can be a real PITA because you need a set of shims and generally must remove the camshaft to perform the adjustments.

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix010.gif

I worked in a Suzuki dealership in the late 80's and early 90's. At that time, almost all Suzuki models were using the rocker arm adjuster. We performed a first service at 600 miles and the valve adjustment was part of that service. I would say about half the bikes serviced were out of spec. Suzuki usually recommended 4000-8000 miles between valve adjustments. After the initial adjustment, most of the bikes we serviced stayed within spec and rarely required further tweeking until they reached high mileage.

I think it's safe to say that most people don't touch their valves for two reasons. #1 Shops charge an arm and a leg for it because it's very time consuming. #2 Noisy valves usually won't stop the bike from running, and most people ignore maintenance until they are stranded on the road.

With that said, I think it's best if you perform an initial valve adjustment at 1000 kilometers and then check them every 5000 kilometers.

So let's get started..... I always like to start with a clean bike before tearing her down and getting inside. You are going to have a few areas of your engine exposed during the process, any loose crud hanging around your engine could fall inside and really ruin your day. Also not a bad idea to use a work stand for this operation.

Ain't She Purdy!:bling:

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix004.jpg

I would recommend pulling the seat, side panels and tank off. It's not absolutely necessary, but it makes the process a lot easier. Now that she's naked, remove the spark plug and the four items marked in yellow in the following picture.
#1 Front Valve Cover 17mm spanner
#2 Rear Valve Cover 17mm spanner
#3 Timing Mark Cover 17mm spanner
#4 Small Engine Cap 10mm Allen Wrench

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix005.jpg

Put your 17mm socket inside the hole, where the 10mm allan cap was, and rotate the engine around (counterclockwise) until you see a mark on the flywheel indicating Top Dead Center. Verify you are at Top Dead Center (TDC) by checking the position of the piston through the spark plug hole. If you got it right, you can grab one of the rockers and wiggle it a bit. Remember, this is a four stroke engine, the piston will be at TDC twice during the four strokes. This is what you should see through the inspection hole if you got it right.

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix006.jpg

Now, let's have a look at one of the valves. This happens to be the intake valve, but it is identical to the exhaust valve.

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix007.jpg

Here's some colour coding and explanations for you first timers.
The first thing you need to understand is what we are adjusting here. At the bottom, you will see a Green part and a Red part. We are trying to measure and set the gap (space) between these two items. The Orange screw at the top is what you will turn to make the adjustment. The Blue nut keeps everything tight after you have made the adjustment. Pretty simple :thumbsup:

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix008.jpg

You will need a set of feeler gauges to measure the gap. First thing you want to do is check the current gap, maybe your valves don't need adjusting. Through CrazyCarl, we have learned that the correct specification is .06mm to .08mm for both the exhaust and intake ports. Take a .09mm gauge and slip it in. If it goes in, you're valves are too loose. Take a .06mm gauge and slip it in. If it doesn't go in, your valves are too tight.

If you need to adjust them, loosen the nut and back the adjuster screw out. Insert a .07mm gauge and carefully tighten the adjuster until it lightly pinches the gauge. You should be able to pull the gauge out. Now tighten the lock nut down without rotating the adjuster screw (not easy unless you have 3 hands). If you did it correctly, the .06mm will easly slip in, the 07mm will slip in with a little wiggling and the .08mm will not go. If you can't get a .06mm in there, they are too tight. If you can get a .09mm in, they are too loose.

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/fix009.jpg

Now that you have both the intake and the exhaust valves adjusted, step back and drink a beer:beerbust: It's a good idea to verify your work, so rotate the engine a few times and then check them again. Be patient, you probably won't get it right the first time, I didn't:gaah: If everything appears to be in good working order, put the bike back together and fire it up. With any luck she will be smooth as silk. If you hear some nasty clacking sounds, immediately shut the bike off and check the valves again.

I took a quick run around the block and the bike definately responds better and the engine sounde nice and smooth. I will need to take her out for a good thrashing and see if this helps with the stalling issue I have been encountering all along.

Cheers!
ChinaV

Verry informative post sir, thank you very much. I really like all the fancy colours

Brillant post...words fail me! I think it ought to be a sticky. The quality of the photos is something else. Thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

Brillant post...words fail me! I think it ought to be a sticky. The quality of the photos is something else. Thank you.

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That's a good idea!

CC

Thanks for the kind words guys. It's nice to see that people appreciate the time that was put in. I get a lot of great info from this site, so it's the least I can do to give a little back. Getting a sticky :eekers: .... sweet!

Upcoming events will include:
Stator replacement
Clutch fix
Maybe change the front forks to the USD ones

Looking forward to working with you guys on those as well.

Cheers!
ChinaV

went and got the tune up. they were not interested in comparing notes and seemed to just want to to do the valve adjustments. they determined it needed to be done.

anyway my stuttering problem is gone. it still idles just a tad off. but i went gigantic on the jet and will be re-jetting soon.

i went from a stock 122.5 to a 135. it hurt my fuel economy pretty severely. about 40 miles less a tank. on top of that my plug was too black. i am getting some light popping. so i am going to go down to a 127.5 jet.

i wanted to see if the valve adjustment would resolve everything first.

now jp is offering a rear sprocket too!!! o man, down 3 teeth brings 4th gear alive. i almost forget i am in 4th in certain situations. and now at 75 miles per hour i am at an even 7000 rpms!!! bonus!!!

i think if i fix my jetting i will be all set.

oh and of course mega dittos on that post!!! very nice werk!!!