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HI GUYS,
I am operate a dealership in the usa that specializes in the Sachs MadAss, but i saw a picture of this ZANELLA Z-CAP from Argentina that looks allot like a madass. I think they designed the bike themselves, but the bike is built in China. HAS ANYBODY SEEN THIS BIKE BEFORE?
My big question is who is the manufacturer?
iv seen something very similiar to this before on some chinese motorcycle outlet website. what cc is it?
IT IS A 119.7 CCQuote:
Originally Posted by Kennon
here is a link to the spec page for the ZANELLA Z-CAP
http://www.zanella.com.ar/sitio/moto...es_zcap125.php
Where is MJH when you need him?
Probably writing an entire thread by himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by barnone
He probably doesn't smoke 'erb BTW.
Better yet where is humanbeing? I haven't heard from him in a while. He knows everything.
I have no idea, but there are sources in Thailand that manufacturer for SACH one of which is Tiger.
http://www.tigermotor.co.th/ProductA...s/image001.png
Maybe you can get a line on the Kikass…
http://www.tigermotor.co.th/ProductA...mage001.png%20
http://www.zanella.com.ar/sitio/imag.../rx350_max.jpg
I see that Zanella is also selling the 350cc version of the Lifeng. Is that engines design a Honda or Kawasaki, seems to be some confusion on that.
This is definitely from the CB250/CB350 family which started in the before I was even born. We know this as the Chinese 250 and original Honda 250 are both in fact 233.8cc. Also they were probably Honda copies of British Engines!Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
Attachment 5708
1974 CB350K4. Both the 250 and 350 were similar but the 350 had different heads or something.
http://vf750fd.com/blurbs/brochures/...cb250_3501.jpg
In 1964 the CB250/CB350 both have an OHC
http://vf750fd.com/blurbs/brochures/.../cb250-350.jpg 1968
I see that Johnnypag has a 270cc version and claim it is a DOHC?
http://www.johnnypag.com/motorcycles...er300Specs.pdf
I could be wrong but it does not look like a DOHC
http://www.johnnypag.com/motorcycles...ngineParts.pdf
They also have it rated at 23.8HP and Lifeng rates the 350 at that same HP?
I do not think the CB250 was ever less then 249cc but the CB350 was only 325cc….the lifeng 350 is 320cc
I think that the JP is actually 320cc and they lied to the EPA that it is 270cc so they could get it in as a Class II under 270cc engine.
There were certainly different versions of this engine. I had a CB250N in Australia which was a 249cc single and there was a 249cc twin CB250 at one point.
Regardless of history the Johnny Pag/Regal Raptor bikes are really 234.8cc, I own one. The 300 is a 270cc factory re-bore and the 350 is a 320cc re-bore.
If you analyze the wheel sizes 18 inch front and 15 inch rear and engine you'll soon see that basically the bikes are based on the CMX250:
Attachment 5723
We've discussed these Honda engines many times before on these boards. Jialing had a joint venture with Honda, that's where all these 50cc, 90cc, 100cc, 110cc, 125cc, 150cc, 233cc, 234cc and 249cc engines came from. Basically 98% of the Chinese domestic brands that do not have a joint venture are using Honda based engines or exact clones.
I read most of the most of the posts, The CMX250 is the final version of that Honda twin, but the crank case on the Lifeng looks more like the older versions, specifically the 350-K4
The CB350 was Honda’s best selling bike in the USA, you can still find them here lots of them and with low miles. They came in SL, CL, CB versions.
http://vf750fd.com/blurbs/brochures/sl350/sl350.jpg
http://vf750fd.com/blurbs/brochures/cb350/cl350ko.jpg
http://vf750fd.com/blurbs/brochures/cb350/cb350k4.jpg
Notice the caption “specification certified by the Transport Ministry of Japan”.
They could call it a 350 but it discloses that it is a 325cc, which everyone should be fine with.
But it points something out and that before they make claims the government would validate the claims. Then any subsequent claims used in advertising would be the same, they can or could change the claims but it had to be certified by the Transport Ministry.
It’s a shame that Lifeng had to water cool the engine, bet that has to do with poor metal quality. The under performing has to do in part with emissions, but also with the limited ability to engineer as well. The CMX250 sold in the USA is smaller and air cooled and has more output per cc.
There are a lot of people in the USA that would like a Honda CB350 type bike, light and fast. But the older bikes are a headache, points are a pain and nothing lasts forever. The parts are limited, not impossible to find but you have to search for them , if needed.
A 350 was 350lbs and had 30hp, it was a fast bike at the time it was not considered under powered it was actually considered over powered, most of the Japanese bike evolved into very overpowered.
They developed the 250 for England evidently they had limits at the time, the 250 version offered in England were not offered in the US.
hi guys,
i thought i was on the right forum to find some much needed information about a bike built in china. we have tons of forums that discuss old hondas.....a little help?
Sorry, very off-topic here.
I'm pretty sure that Zanella has a Lifan engine, whether they make the whole thing not sure.
It is likely they are coming out of FYM (Ghangzhou Panyu Huanan Motors Group Co.)
Ghangzhou Panyu Huanan Motors Group Co.
I am not sure if Tiger actually manufactures or only imports Chinese made goods and sells them under the Tiger Brand name? But they also offer the Madass as one of their models.
http://www.tigermotor.co.th/index.php
The engines on the Z-cap and the Maddass are the same, 120cc and the agent importing the Madass to the USA is Peirspeed (aka Cobra Scooters) and the OEM is Ghangzhou Panyu Huanan Motors Group Co, under the EPA certificate for 2011 is the Madass 125.
Here is the certificate number BCBRC.125FYM-001, you would need one of those to import the Z-cap. If they have the same engines then they could be submitted for an EPA certificate with Ghangzhou Panyu Huanan Motors Group Co as the OEM, and its application would have the same data as the Madass 125.
There is also the possibility that Zanella assembles or even makes those in Argentina, with the engine again very likely coming out of FYM, since they already have dealings with FYM.
MJH, you are a bloody flucking genius! How did you find this source?
Yes, check out these product images on the Huanan site:
This one is 100cc...
http://www.hnmoto.com/en/UploadFiles...8114915126.jpg
And this one is 50cc...
http://www.hnmoto.com/en/UploadFiles...2216010572.jpg
The frames and displacements are slightly different, but it's hard to imagine that these are not the basic DNA for the Zanella Z-Cap.
Amazing sleuthing, Holmes!
cheers
http://www.sachs-bikes.cc/
It never was a secret was it?
They are offering a 160cc version in china….
Not sure I follow. Moto-scoot Bill had asked about the source of the Zarella bikes, not the Sachs bikes, though he suspected they had common DNA. I spent a few minutes searching in Chinese for any references to Zarella but came up empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
So now I'm again confused. Have you actually established a firm link between Zarella and Guangzhou Huanan Motors?
cheers!
Did you see the 500cc version....
http://www.5rmotor.com/http://www.sachs-bikes.cc/uploadfile...1873731958.jpg
I would have named it the Auchtung!
No....and that may never even be possible, not everything is disclosed. But it is very likely that Zanella is getting them from FYM since they are also selling the Madass that comes from FYM/SACH.
Zanella offers 79 commercial models, they have four factories and four depots and employee 600 people.
They import and assemble, they source from Lifeng, Loncin, Lifan and others.
That Z-cap could very well be something they designed and make in one of their assembly plants. In fact if you dig down you will find an image of it on the Zanella global site, under products and designs.
http://www.zanellamotors.com/eng/01_menu.swf
The Madass is to me like the Megelli it may be a protected design that is always sold with the name Madass, the name is what is likely licensed by SACH or possibly FYM, but the later is not in character with the Chinese’s practices.
They may have a few models in their line-up that are their exclusives and even though they may be getting parts from china they may actually be assembling them and with out a Madass license, makes sense right all that could be considered proprietary on the SACH is the frame and the name. The engine is not…its actually a Honda as nearly all of the engines are.
I doubt you can get those Bill, not unless Zanella sells them to you.
Yeah true, that engine has the same DNA. Both Honda derived forward firing singles, the Madass/Zanella size is as big as they went. The C90 had the most common size. Version, still lots of Honda's with 100cc and 110cc versions of that engine around.