Dave here, English bloke living and working in the motorcycle industry in Chongqing, China.
Hello to everone and hope you have a great Christmas!
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Dave here, English bloke living and working in the motorcycle industry in Chongqing, China.
Hello to everone and hope you have a great Christmas!
Gidday Dave, all the seasons festive greetings back at ya. I'm sure many of us would be interested to know more about your involvement in the motorcycle industry especially seen as you are located in ChongQing where the majority of Chinese motorcycle manufacturing is based. So spill the beans, what you up to down there?
Hello mate, Yuletide greetings to you too!
I'm the chief foreign editor of China motor magazine and China E-Vehicle, I also do marketing work for the CIMAmoto expo and a few Chinese and foreign motorcycle related companies.
My last motorcycle experience was last week on the back of my beer delivery man's 30cc cub. a real hair-raising adventure when we went around corners and nearly came off with me shouting "save the beer, save the beer!"
Welcome to MCM, David. Glad to have you among us. Hopefully you'll find MCM to be a good source of first-hand experience in English about Chinese motorbikes, both from inside China and from riders all over the world. We have members across Latin America, many in North America, a smattering from across Europe from Finland and Sweden to the Mediterranean, and even a handful in Africa and central Asia. You'll read a lot of unvarnished views about the various Chinese manufacturers and their products. Above all, you'll find a lot of enthusiasm for Chinabikes, and all the joys and frustrations that go with them. It's an excellent resource for motorcycle trade journalist.
A view you'll hear a lot from me and many others is that the Chinese manufacturers need to substantially raise their game beyond mere manufacturing and into marketing, design and above all customer support, which are all intimately related but are not something that state enterprises regard as important. We get little sense at all that any of the major brands are even bothering to listen to the expert and passionate views that we offer up free of charge, day in and day out, in MCM. And for this reason, they continue to make horrific blunders that keep them from rising to the level of the major international brands, even though their sheer numbers are probably far greater. Check out the various threads on Qingqi (bikes announced two or three years ago but still unlaunched), Jialing (trying to sweep under the rug some serious and dangerous EFI problems that in countries with actual consumer protections would prompt a safety recall), Loncin (idly assuming that merely wrenching their BMW 650 thumper engine into some frankenbike will make that bike a top seller), etc, etc.
Interested to know more about this curious tradition of beer delivery in Chongqing, whereby the purchaser has to ride with the delivery man during delivery! Seems less than efficient!
Incidentally, what do YOU ride (when you are not pillioning on beer deliveries)?
Again, welcome, and hope you'll be a frequent contributor.
cheers
Thanks for the greeting. I couldn't agree with you more. Lots of the smaller factories will have the shock of their lives when they realise that they can no longer stick carburretors in units but need EFI.
An American EFI company has employed me to do some marketing but it is mostly banging my head on the wall.
Anyone heard anything about the Loncin-Kawasaki rumours?
Hi David, nice to have you aboard! Tough job dealing with Chinese businesses for sure.
I think that EFI is generally only needed above 150cc at current E3 emission levels, so it is going to become a bigger problem later.Quote:
Originally Posted by David McMullan
I heard some rumours about Kawasaki-Qian Jiang, but not Loncin. But Loncin already have some dealing with BMW.
You sure that's not Loncin-Keweseki? :taz:Quote:
Originally Posted by David McMullan
No, have not heard that rumor, but it's pretty tantalizing, especially if Kawasaki have the guts to think beyond the sub-250cc niche that has seduced Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda in their China forays. Does Loncin have legal scope (haha) to partner the BMW-friendly 650cc single with manufacturers that are not BMW or Loncin?
cheers!
The rumours about Loncin and Kawa were there at the CIMA expo, but nothings come of it yet. husqvarna have agreed something with Loncin but they're BMW anyway.
MCN wrote to me about rumours of a Keeway 650 hitting the UK market next year but I can't get anything about it from Qjiang. Most of these factories just like speading rumours of their new high cc bikes, I've seen the Zongshen but also know that it's nowhere near production.
Was it BMW or Husqvarna(same company) agreeing to do something with loncin.I really really hope Husqvarna are not going to start sourcing parts from Loncin.I really really like my Husky TE310 I think BMW stuffed it with the new 449 and 510 .Quote:
Originally Posted by David McMullan
Husqvarna will be colaborating with Loncin from next year. BMW already share technical knowhow and staff with Loncin. It's pretty wierd looking inside the Loncin factory because there is a section which is clearly more technically advanced and safety concsious than the rest of the factory, it is of course the BMW part.
That's a shame long time Husky fan and owner.But i sure as hell won't have anything to do with them if they turn Chinese.Just look at the Jialing debacle.:puke:Quote:
Originally Posted by David McMullan
I think having ridden joint venture Hondas and Yamahas that it's pretty safe so long as the company is only half Chinese. The 100% Chinese bike companies though could be a could worms that I don't want to open.:pokeQuote:
Originally Posted by bigdamo
If any Chinese companies want to be taken seriously they will have to stick their neck out and enter a team in Moto2 or eqivalent. Loncin had their daliance with moto125 but their wasn't much 'Loncin' about the bike.
FIM have told me that they are very willing to give Chinese companies all the help they need in entering top competions but as usual the companies are not too far thinking.
I think if Chinese motorcycle companies want to be taken seriously they need to do a few things. A few examples....
-Build their own brand name, take it seriously and stop hiding behind local market re-branding. Provide excellent customer warranty and support.
-Employ people who have a love for bikes and have a genuine passion for them, not just family friends or people who have no clue or love cars.
-Hunt for employees with skill and enthusiasm, in China and abroad, and let them flourish in their work and have a real impact on the companies' direction.
-Do their own market research and R&D, and stop stealing technology and using their customers as free R&D.
-Take more care in the factory, torque bolts properly, use thread-lockers grease parts and think about their end users' safety, not pump out as many bikes as possible for max profits.
-Get involved in spectator motorsports of some kind, and pay foreign riders as well as local ones to ride for you.
-Be ahead of the game with electric/hybrid bikes, not lagging behind doing cheap copies.
-Forge relationships with or even buy out foreign companies and gain new technology fairly and legally.
-Treat their customers properly even in China, go the extra mile for them and fix problems, to build long term good-will and reputation even sometimes outside of legal warranty. Above all NEVER lie to your customers or treat them as idiots.
-Learn how to take criticism gratefully as a constructive tool to help you improve your product.
Basically only a few brands will survive long term, and the companies who are able to do at least some of the above things will most likely be the winners. The companies with despotic leadership who refuse to listen to their customers will be the ones that die.
That pretty much sums up what they need to do. Not many of the smaller companies are looking long term, the general concensus in Chongqing is that the industry has only got 5 years left in it (mind you I heard that 5 years ago)! I think for most of them it's a case of 'making hay while the sun shines' as when emerging markets become saturated it will be only the bigger companies that will have the ability to open up properly on western markets.
Bloody hell, what about their own market? With a bit of care and feeding, and some intelligent marketing that regarded motorcyclists as people with choice rather than stupid, hapless farmers, these guys could sell hundreds of thousands of premium-priced bikes a year in China, and rapidly build their skills and brands in the process. The big four in Japan did this despite having a population just one-tenth the size, then Honda tackled the US market in earnest, making mistakes and learning from them, and becoming best of breed.Quote:
Originally Posted by David McMullan
Do you think that anyone in the boardrooms of Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha or Suzuki sees their industry as having only five years left? What about BMW, Ducati, Triumph or Harley? All of those, to varying degrees, are readjusting and preparing for the future, which is now.
At Jialing and its ilk, with this kind of thinking, the five-year horizon will become a reality and China will be buzzing with efficient, zero carbon vehicles that are fun and popular with customers -- and branded Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, BMW, Ducati, Triumph and Harley.
And they will fully deserve this fate.
/rant
cheers
I kind of wish this thread were called,
How China's motorcycle industry is committing slow suicide
or, for the pollyannas among us,
How China's motorcycle industry could dodge death and flourish
And put it in the Manufacturers' Info and Discussion forum.
cheers
The domestic market becomes more and more screwed due to the ban on motorcycles in many urban areas. It's the smaller factories that have the '5 year' attitude not the likes of Jialing, Loncin etc who are making constant noises about how they plan to take over Europe. To their credit, Chinese motorcycle companies do put up a good showing at Milan Eicma and the Cologne shows despite Cologne marginalising Chinese companies blatantly with regard to positioning in the exhibition.
Exactly! There already is a grassroots of motorcycle enthusiasts across age ranges in China. Also the younger age groups there are a good solid percentage who are bored of cars and traffic gridlock already, and could become skilled competent long term riders. It is sad that I feel these Chinese riders are being bullied into cars, by the majority who seem to really believe that not having a car is a massive loss of face, and must be in the 'car club' which is patriotic because it drives forward the automotive market and a good chunk of the economic growth. Are there no words for 'unsustainable', 'futile' and 'gridlock' in Chinese?Quote:
Originally Posted by Euph
I have a question, what is, if any, the connection with ZONTES and Daimler? ZONTES also goes by Haojiang and also GUANGDONG Tayo Motorcyle Technolgy Co,,LTD.
Private Policy:
“I do give consent to the sharing of my data with other Daimler entities or authorized dealers, and I do give consent to the receiving of relevant marketing materials from ZONTES(China) Limited. Please visit our website to view our privacy policy in greater detail.”
I also read that Benelli will be offering the Due 756 twin in china, Qianjiang has an advantage they could open a wholly Italian managed factory in china, since they actually own Benelli. They could open a production center that would operate as if it was a totally foreign operation in China, but legally would not be. I think they should, they can give the Italian access to the market as they see fit, let them design and develop what they feel they can and that they believe will sell in the Chinese market. Here is the article from
Asphalt and Rubber.
Benelli Due 756 Finally Goes Live…in China?
Posted Friday, December 16th, 2011 @ 11:28 am, by Jensen Beeler http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-c...09-635x425.jpg The Benelli Due concept has been in the works for so long, we’re officially giving it the Duke Nukem Forever status of the motorcycle industry. I first laid my eyes on the two-cylinder street-standard back in 2009, as the then called “2ue” was making its second EICMA appearance (the Due made its first appearance as early as the Cologne show in 2006). Essentially a Benelli triple with a cylinder lopped off, the Benelli Due displaces 756cc with its inline cylinders, and is an otherwise attractive motorcycle. Given how much of a basket-case the “Tre” motor was, we can only imagine the “character” its two-cylinder counterpart brings to the table, though that is an entirely different issue. Finally announcing that the Benelli Due will hit dealership floors in 2012, the Chinese-owned Italian company has an interesting twist with its news: the Benelli Due will be released in China first, then Europe and other markets. At play surely is the idea and principle of pride that Chinese companies should release models in their home country first, before servicing other markets. This notion is surely understandable, but does strike us as interesting considering that Europe and North America are likely to be bigger volume markets for this big-displacement motorcycle.
The Chinese market is of course better known for its small-displacement motorcycle needs, and it is unclear how large of a demand exists for a bike like the Benelli Due within its borders. More shocking than this news is the fact that being nearly a six-year-old design, the Due is still a striking bike (sans that headlight perhaps).
For as many issues as the Italian brand has, it sure does produce some of the most striking and timeless motorcycles in the business.
You nearly got me there - its China and a Chinese company - and that means a poorly executed copy & paste of the form.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
Simple as that. There is nothing with Zontes & Daimler...but its a excellent example what this discussion is about.
It’s kind of sad as they created some decent products and then they get all weird about how they plan to sell them.
They created a decent web site, but since they only offer three motorcycles, they just had to fill the pages with a bunch of silly distractions.
I do not think that the Phantom 200, really exists, must be why they called it the Phantom?
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...omBig_en03.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...omMid_en02.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...omBig_en04.jpg
Exactly, which us is where my proverb about China rings true... "everything in China is just for looking, for nothing is at it seems (appears), beAware the smoke and mirrors" -author me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH