QingQi "Rock" X-Bike - Feedback wanted from factory!

Hey Gang,

Many moons ago, on the suggestion of Supersignet, I sent in a Photoshoped image of a prototype bike based on their current models I thought would help give QingQi motors a unique product and dubbed it the "QingQi Rock".

- QingQi "Rock" Concept Image - click for larger
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...200GY-Rock.jpg


Lo and behold, the idea was taken seriously by the good folks at QingQi RnD who actually produced a working prototype (photos below).

Now QingQi has asked me to put the images to the community in order to get some feedback and responses on the model and it's design. You'll see it's a mixture of the 200GY motard and the 2D model yielding a bike with:

- Dual sport and commuting potential
- 22L (~5 gallon tank for) for about 300miles tank range
- Wide soft contoured seat
- Drop-in 250cc engine potential
- 17" front wheel with 18" back
- Relatively long wheel-base
- High exhaust pipe

This is a rare and welcome chance to be heard in the industry folks so be honest, thoughtful and polite since there's a good chance people from the factory will be following this thread.

More details and reasons are better than less. Remember this is an experimental bike and NOT a production model. They are interested in your feedback about this model only. Some topics might include:

1) Looks - How does it look to you and what is your first impression? What style changes do you like or dislike and why?

2) Technical - What technical features does the bike already have that you appreciate? What features are missing that you would like to see added?

3) Market Position - How well do you think it would compete in the market? Would you buy one and how much would you pay? Do any other manufacturers make similar models? Does it remind you of a different bike?

Besides comments, feel free to do your own Photoshop work and show us what you're thinking. Thanks guys and let's hear what you have to say!

- QingQi "Rock" Experimental Cross-Moto Bike -

1)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-02.jpg

2)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-03.jpg

3)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-04.jpg

4)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-10.jpg

5)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-05.jpg

6)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-06.jpg

7)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-07.jpg

8)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-08.jpg

9)
http://photos.imageevent.com/mychina...gQiRock-09.jpg

Paz,
CC

That looks great. I would welcome a lower seat height as the 200GY are a little too much for me. There are lots of short potential customers about as several European and Japanese makers are now realising and are accomodating them by offering lowering kits , lower seat options, etc.
Just google "lowering kits"...There have been lots of manufacturers that have ignored shorties at their peril, anyone remember the "oil in the frame" BSA's?, the Hesketh superbike?. Lots of potential customers put off by excessive seat heights and driven to custom cruisers...

A rear luggage carrier option would be good. It was incorporated in your mock-up but not in the prototype. They could sell as many as they can make, as lots of people want to fit trunks, etc. The Spanish importer has no idea of where I can get a carrier for mine, even though I pointed out to him that the factory have such an item to fit the 200GY dual-sport version, but so far, nothing.

They seem to have fitted the same handlebars as the motard, and as you've pointed out before, it's not easy to stand up on the footpegs with those. A slightly higher set of bars would be nice.

They've used a rear drum brake, although the later versions of the motard have a disc. I know that the drum works OK, but lots of people want to see a disc at the rear as well. Call it fashion, etc but a cursory look at forums shows that it's what they want.

The rear view mirrors are like my motards. Totally useless and only good to see your elbows. Longer stems would sort that out.

Looks very nice. I like the round front light, easy to add a small windshield above. Based on my little experience with my new to me QM200, here my remarks which recoup Forchetto's ones:

* Rear mirrors too narrow. Perhaps due to the narrow handlebar which seems not to have a standard diameter tube.
* Rear drum brake is weak, I've been surprised 2 or 3 times
* Seat a little bit high for daily commute but good for dirt roads
* Decent bag carrier (QM200 is fine)
* Storage below the seat with a lock to open it easily
* Low front fender for a DS bike
* Low gas warning light
* Partial mileage counter
* Kick start and a center stand (or a longer side stand) will be welcome but not mandatory
* few more HP for mountain roads and overtaking.

By the way can we have some info/reference about the tires mounted on this bike. Look like real DS tires, are they local production?

Overall the QingQi is a good bike, Wife and daughter have ride it and they enjoy it very much. Bravo QingQi!

Looks like an interesting concept. Pretty tough to blend dual sport and commuter in one bike. 17" front with an 18" rear does not give you a lot of tire choices for the street and that's a very strange combination (geometry) for off road use.

#1 First Impression: Nice looking general purpose motorcycle.

#2 Technical features I like:
* Good size gas tank.
* USD forks.
* Skid plate.
* Nice tail section design.

#2 Technical features missing:
* Disk brake in the rear.
* Rubber foot pegs. Dirt bike pegs vibrate too much.
* Higher handlebars with bar end weights and real hand guards that actually block the wind and rain.
* A luggage rack.
* A gas gauge or a trip meter. Not having either is rather difficult.
* Kick starter.
* Center stand.
* Optional small front fairing, something like the old Suzuki Bandit 400.

#3 Market position:
QingQi already has a pretty good spread of bikes now that they added the QM250-2D and the QM250GY-B(ASD).

How well do you think it would compete in the market?
One bike trying to fill the role of two or three is not going to do well against competing bikes better suited to a single purpose. The Japanese have failed many times with "practical" motorcycles because the market just isn't practical. I think there may even be a chance that this model would canabilise sales of other Qing Qi models.

Would you buy one and how much would you pay?
I would pay the same as their other bikes. 1500-1800 USD. There is nothing new in this design, just shuffling around of parts.

Do any other manufacturers make similar models? Does it remind you of a different bike?
Not really, and that's a good thing. Nice to look at a new Chinese bike and not immediately assume it's a copy of one of the Japanese models.

It's nice to see Qing Qi making an effort to listen to consumers, something that other manufacturers seem to have stopped doing decades ago.

I will restrain myself from any negative comments about parts availability etc.

Cheers!
ChinaV

hay this is actually quite nice, the sort of motard meets mamba feeling although a streetfighter headlight would complement this bike much better.
i love this idea it would do great on the market:scooter:

Misfit,

What do you mean by "streetfighter" headlight?

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Misfit,
What do you mean by "streetfighter" headlight?
CC

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Just googled it and this came up:

http://xpostreetfighter.com/images/d...howcaseImg.gif

Nice, if you're keen on regurgitation...:eekers:

ACK! :eekers:

That's the Acerbis lamp set-up. I was never crazy about it and have almost never seen it used in on a bike that actually looked good.

CC

Wow...I've been sleeping too long. This bike looks pretty good. I'm sure if they kept the suspension setup used on the QM200GY this bike would work well. The USD forks look great and the bike itself looks amazing. Too bad I don't have one to ride. Just need some boxes on the back and you'd be ready to go.

'

I wish Qing Qi would make this bike for me. If I could get my hands on a new QM250GY-B(ASD), I would buy the extra parts and try myself. Unfortunately, I am told, the QM250GY-B(ASD) is not available anywhere. Guess they are not producing the bike until they get a major order.

My version of the QM250GY - Dualsport
New 250cc motor
Rear Rack
Kick Starter
Hand Guards
Front Tire Spoke 90/90-19
Rear Tire Spoke 120/90-17
Front Brake Disc brake, Single
Rear Brake Disc brake, Single

http://www.contactdi.com/2008/fix/qq_001.jpg

Carl, I think the original idea you put forth was pretty cool, but they removed the off road ability and went a little more motard than I would like in the prototype.

I wonder if Qing Qi could change the wheels to 90/90-21 front and 120/90-17 rear. Those are the sizes on the KLR and Transalp, there are plenty of tire choices for those sizes.

Cheers!
ChinaV

V Man! That's some pretty sweet ps action goin' on! :icon10:

I think a balance could be found with the tires too. My ideas on that would be:

1) 21" Front, 18" Rear - Standard on the 200GY
2) 21" Front 17" Rear - More like the Suzuki DR650 - Plenty of tire choices
3) 19" Front 17" Rear - Like on many road-oriented dual sports - Also many good tire choices, esp for commuting and touring.
4) 18" Front, 18" Rear - Standard street-bike fashion and decent all round combo.

For something a little more aggressive on the pavement but still very usable on dirt (esp. with the right tires), I'd tend to lean #3. But really, you could sell the bike with a spare wheel and you'd get 2 bikes for one! In less than 10 minutes, you could be on a whole new groove! :thumbsup:

:scooter:
CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

3) 19" Front 17" Rear - Like on many road-oriented dual sports - Also many good tire choices, esp for commuting and touring.

For something a little more aggressive on the pavement but still very usable on dirt (esp. with the right tires), I'd tend to lean #3. But really, you could sell the bike with a spare wheel and you'd get 2 bikes for one! In less than 10 minutes, you could be on a whole new groove! :thumbsup:
CC

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I was thinking the same, 17" rear gives you a massive amount of tire choices, swap in a 17" front and you have a great handling motard, put a 19" up front and you have a good 50/50 dual sport. :thumbsup:

Cheers!
ChinaV

Then get rid of the analog speed-o assembly (pickup and cable), replace it with good digital gauges (using a magnetic pickup) and wheel changes couldn't be much easier. :thumbsup:

Super Hot Swappable Dual Purpose Fun!

:riding::riding::riding:
CC

It's pretty sweet, I know it would cost more but my two cents:

1. Rear Disk brake
2. Some kind of hand guards
3. Fuel gauge
4. Fly screen or bikini fairing
5. Kick Start

Pretty much as China V's photoshopped pic

Not bad at all, I like the following: :mwink:

-Good looking tail section
-Upside down forks
-Large fuel tank

I would like to see the following: :naughty:

-Rear disc brake
-Better looking and styled exhaust canister
-Super motard styled headlight
-Kickstart & electricstart
-Water cooled engine

to be honest i just want a more powerful version of the 200 sumo. one better suited for california highways at the same price.

1. a must is a 6th gear

2. a rear cargo rack

3. a big gas tank

4. a trip meter

the whole appeal of these machines is value. period. a good bike for a better price. not a good bike for a bit too much money.

thank you for listening and i am available for r&d!!!

the more i look at the bike i like it. if it had a 6th gear and the same price tag as the sumo i would buy it.

ok i just want a black 6 speed 250cc sumo with racks/cargo boxes in as many places as possible and a 5 gallon gas tank. (man i wish i was photoshop guru!!!)

it would cut the legs out from under yamaha's new wr250x 250cc sumo with a "constant-mesh 6-speed; multiplate wet clutch transmission".

Six speeds would be great but unfortunately these engines are designed sometimes years before they're ever put into a frame. Like others have mentioned, all of these things would mean more money.

I still find it curious the QLink is selling for 3k. :eek2:

CC

Very cool to see manufacturers asking the question "what do you want?" as opposed to "what did you get in the past?" I think this proto-moto has the makings of a new Standard Universal motorcycle. The standard class is woefully under-represented in the US market. The Kaw Ninja250 (which sold out for '08) is considered a standard in the US and there are no Honda CBF/CG125's here. Good small standard bikes are non existant. Good small enduros are abundant, but too tall for urban riders to feel comfortable on them. Most enduros also have tiny tanks and no cargo capacity, so you are wise to address those issues with this bike.

I like the suggestions about tire size and agree with your #3 option bundelled with an additional wheel.

I'm fine with the rear drum...tidy, cheap, easy to fix/adjust.

If I were a photoshopper I'd want to see what it would look like with a shielded scrambler high pipe exhaust on it.

More to say but I'll be back later... Peej

Peej!

Haven't heard from you in a while! How are things going?

I think this bike already has a high exhaust doesn't it? When you say "shielded scrambler" I"m not totally sure what you're referring too. Could you post a pic of a bike you're thinking about that already has it?

CC

Hi Carl, and all...
I'm well and just winding down a sales season that was up %170 from the previous one. Wow, the two-wheelers flew out the doors. I can tell you that tons of new commuting riders are entering the market here in the US. Scooters and Adventure/Dual Motorcycles are the two groups in big growth. I'm in Wisconsin and even our cold climate state buy 5,000+ scooter each year. Sadly the first snow of winter has just fallen this week, so the riding season ends til spring.

Riders came out in great numbers this year looking for multi-purpose high milage small bikes and found very few options. And while most first time riders will seek the automatic tranny of a scooter, many midwesterners have dirt bike expirience. Supermoto bikes are selling well and enduros are being pushed into service as commuters. Most enduros would still need upgraded cargo space, lowered comfy seat, urban wheels, and such to be a better commuter.

I don't know the exact spirit that brought about this prototype and discussion so I hope none of my suggestions are counter purpose. You seem to be looking to improve the looks AND utility of a light bike. Useful. appealing, simple yet tough. I'm puting a commuter spin on it 'cuz thats where I see a need and an opportunity. There are so many uses and users that it hard to make a Dual Sport that satisfies all. I have wondered when someone would explore using the enduro frame with friendly ergonomics and utility styling.

Scrambler pipes are just a styling cue that I like. Street bikes with raised pegs, higher bars, and strait side pipe gave better ground clearance and could handle trail riding are called scramblers. The early Seventies Honda CB350 and 450 Supersports were converted to CL350/450 Scramblers. Look up a 1972 Honda CL450 and that is the shielded pipe I refer to.

What we have here is a lowered dirt bike for dirt and street...rather than a raised street bike for street and trail. Which, brings us back to the issue of swappable wheels to get better handling where the user wants it. If you could offer this bike with two sets of wheels for 3G or less...WINNER. Then you have to actually support it with not only parts...but upgrades as well.


IMO the rear styling on this prototype does a fair job of matching the tank shape from the side profile...but has too strong a profile from the rear view. I would like to see this design liability turned into utility. Consider this, the diamond shaped flaring rear body work could be a flat mounting bracket from just above the rear peg mounting bolts all the way up to the tailight. This would give a boxier looking tail, but multiple bolt-on accessory space rather than breaky style parts. Offer multiple rear racks, panniers, boxes, passenger bars, frame sliders, hardpoints, and even a stylish breaky parts to bolt onto the rear frame. Totally customizable feature instead of like it or leave it body part. What do think of that Idea?

I like this bike, so don't take it the wrong way when I say that I'd like to see it slammed to the ground a few times. Where does the damage show up? Does that wider tank get dented quickly? Does the rear bodywork get torn up? Could bumpers/sliders be added to improve damage resistance? Does the pipe get smashed? Take a look at the armor plates that go on snowmobiles and jetskis as bumbers in high wear areas and imagine some on a motorcycle.

How would it look in flat rat paint I wonder??? A mini-street fighter??? the Dual-Standard???

In an entirely different direction, Carl have you ever seen the Italjet "Amarcord" prototype from a few year ago. Get the chinese cracking on a simple auto-motorcycle. Look here:

http://bp0.blogger.com/_7gYNb3GSh4M/...h/amarcord.jpg

Later, Peej

http://bp0.blogger.com/_7gYNb3GSh4M/...h/amarcord.jpg

Cool Bike.. I wouldn't mind having one of them to ride around town

Ya, that auto creates a new frame, then uses existing parts for the rest to keep it simple and cheap. But, I digress from Q's bikes.

The US market see's 250 as a minimum cc to be able to get up on a freeway. The 200cc and 150cc versions that have preceded these have never sold well. Once the 250 threshold is hit, US consumers will see them in a new light. Sub-250 bikes are pretty much just learners bikes here. And learner bikes are riden, passed on, resold, and put back on the market. Many new riders will buy a used and abused first bike to practice on then hop up to a larger displacement. I see customers contemplate this theshold all the time, it goes like this...

"I like the price of the 50cc bike/scoot, but for $XXX more I can get the 125/150 that can actually get out of it's own way." (half of 50cc customers go up to a 150cc within 3 years)

"But, Since the 125/150 IS a motorcycle (and requires licensing) I might as well look at the 250 bike/scoots that are freeway capable. WOW, those traditional brand 250cc scooters are priced at $4000 and up!!! I can get a REAL bike for that."

Then they need to choose between a price point new bike and a used whatever, where people who wrench are more likely to buy used, people who don't will buy new...with the giant caveat that a warrantee package and service is availible.

I really liked the 200 Super moto from the moments I saw it..but, I immediately knew that most US customers would wait to see if a 250 became availible. Now, the 250 will come out and the next reason to wait will be Fuel Injection. Then consumers will wait for "some other guy" to buy the first FI models and work the bugs out. Certainly this is a tough gamble for the manufacturer, but the choice is clear. Drop the 200 for a 250 ASAP, and start refining the FI motor for the future.

Later, Peej.

Peej,

The different tranny system does make for a new frame and looks like it should keep the center of gravity nice and low... perfect for easy riders and beginning learners.:thumbsup:

I've always agreed with you on 250cc being a magic displacement marker for selling in the US. I think if they could offer these new 250's for NO MORE than 3,000USD the would fly like hotcakes. Only problem is "they" still does not mean direct distribution from the factory but often short sighted importers. :rolleyes1:

CC

Yes and Yes! And unfortunately...yes.

That bike wouldn't do for non-urban roads, but it's refreshingly simple, and the Ducati-inspired frame is cool.

I have put alot of thought and research into the issue and have solutions for those manufacturers that want to "own" their product and marketshare. Of course that means larger investment and larger exposure for larger profits and stronger market positions. You'd think big manufacturers would at least want a back-up plan IF their importer/distributer lets them down. I'd love to help but I'm not free...my opinion is free, but my advice cost money.

In business it's easier to fill a need than to create one. Several under-served groups of customers are waiting for exciting (yet affordable) solutions to their transportation and entertainment needs. After all, powersports is entertainment as much, if not more, than transportation.

I'm really pleased to see this feeback loop start and hope that constructive and worthwhile discussion actually improve the products and relationship with this manufacturer. 2009 will see many new bikes and a rapidly growing and changing market. Manufacturers can follow the wisdom that I share with all two-wheelers...Proficiency is worth every penny.

Have you gents seen the Aprillia SXV450 and 550? Red hot Supermoto with a very potent V-twin. Top shelf.

Peej

Greetings from Serbian China motorcycle riders.
Two of us engaged about this issue, and we wrote this text abouth this bike. Also we did some of research with other riders, and here is the result of what the new bike should be...

1) Looks - How does it look to you and what is your first impression? What style changes do you like or dislike and why?

2) Technical - What technical features does the bike already have that you appreciate? What features are missing that you would like to see added?

3) Market Position - How well do you think it would compete in the market? Would you buy one and how much would you pay? Do any other manufacturers make similar models? Does it remind you of a different bike?


1.First impression about bike is that front headlight and front fender are not appropriate. Therefore, i tried to made photoshop image modification of front section of what it should look like with front fairing from QM250-2D model. Front fender is nice in general, but this is not the bike that it should be attached on.
Probably bike would looked better with QM250-2D fender, although we think that new deferent design would be the best choice.

2. We liked chassis and suspension, 22l fuel tank, skid plate, rear end, seat, 250cc engine, and of course we would liked to see fairing we suggested, which should add a bit of higher speed stability and wind protection. Both rims should be in more usual 17” combination because of a greater tire choice. Also the bike should have rear disc brake. Some owners of GY models are not completely satisfied by the drum brake.
Hand guards, center stand, fuel gauge(or low fuel warning light at least) , kick starter, also higher handlebar and wider rear view mirrors would be very desirable, but other than rest of accessories, rear & side easy to mount luggage carriers would be a must.

3. It doesn’t remind at any existing bike with similar power or price range. It will be very usable and original, and comparing this bike with new KTM SMT model (on which it could remind with our suggestions included), wouldn’t had sense.
Yes, we would buy one, but only with more modifications we suggested. We would pay price similar to Motard-s, maybe 10-20% more, depending of bike’s components incorporated.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2rxfe3b.jpg

P.S. It would be nice to have matte black choice.

Blackbite,

Welcome to the site! I think you may be the first member(s) from Serbia! :thumbsup:

Thanks for taking the time to sit down with your buddies and write such a thoughtful and well composed email. I think more than a few of us hope this model takes off. It's something unlike what any other motorcycle manufacturer is producing and has the potential of being a great all-round motorcycle.

Clearly you're passionate about bikes and have many talents (including photoshop!). We'd love to hear more about you and your riding group on a different thread. Maybe introduce yourselves and provide a link if you have a club site. Again, welcome to MCM!

:riding:
CC

Quote:

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I've always agreed with you on 250cc being a magic displacement marker for selling in the US. I think if they could offer these new 250's for NO MORE than 3,000USD the would fly like hotcakes.

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Same is true in the UK and I think most of Europe, where the bike needs to be under 20KW (I think it is) for new riders. Also in Australia and I think NZ where you have to do a 250cc license first then pass your full license after a year or two.

Qingqi would be well advised, as would Sundiro, and all the other manufacturers with joint ventures, to beg for the designs for their sister companies' most recent reliable 250cc preferably air-cooled, fuel injected single designs. If they could make lots of these and bring the prices down and reduce the amount of smaller bikes they make they would do better in western markets. Would an injected 250 single cost much more (in fuel economy) to run than an older design of a 125cc with a carb?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Also in Australia and I think NZ where you have to do a 250cc license first then pass your full license after a year or two.

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Thats not really right...

In Australia, you do a 7 hr course in a car park for your L's, pass a knowledge test and are then legal to ride motorbikes up to 660cc and which do not exceed a power to weight ratio of 150 kilowatts per tonne. So you can have any bike under 250cc, with the exception of race replicas like Honda NSR250 and Kawasaki KR-1 models (kiddy killers we call them in Australia). So most bikes under 650CC are legal from the get-go.

After 3 months on learners, you need to pass a riding test and do an 8 hour course to get your provisional licence. 12 months on that, and then you are good to go, unrestricted.

0.00 BAC while on learners and provisional though! :gun_bandana: :goodtime:

:icon10:Blackbite I recommended the same headlight design to factory for this bike the round headlight is not fasionalble enough.

The bike now has a great touring appeal.

Jean-pierre