Hello from Ed209-Superbyke RMR200 owner

Well, I've posted a few questions so I suppose I should introduce myself! I'm in the UK and been riding for about 12 years. Bikes are my main form of transport so I commute every day. My main bike has been a Honda VFR800 for the past 2 years, but rising fuel and servicing costs got me thinkng about gettting a second , more economical commuter, saving my VFR for Fridays and weekend fun...!
I wanted something cheap to run, but reliable and fun, that didn't look like a learner bike.......after a lot of research I became aware of the Superbyke brand (QuinQi rebadged) and the 200 supermoto caught my eye. I didn't want to buy new, as I felt that inititial deptreciation would be horendous, so I kept my eye open on e-bay. It didn't take long to find a 300km, year old minter going for £1000 Buy It Now, and only 56 miles away. Being impulsive, I didn't bother bidding and secured it for the B-I-N price! I picked it up 4 weeks ago and immediatley noticed three things:
1-1st gear was ridiculously low
2-It is very light ,nimble and fun!
3-It has great modding potential....!

The first thing I did was get the exhaust off and see what makes it so quiet and restrictive.......Mmmm, it is very heavy, contains a lot of baffles, and has a catalytic converter material just sort of 'stuffed' in the base of the exhaust!
So out came the angle grinder, and after an hour and 3 grinding discs, I managed to remove about 5 inches off the end, which got rid of 2 baffles. I then drilled 5 holes around the ramaining baffle, and repeatedly hammered a very long drill bit down it to try to create some kind of straight path for the exhaust gases.This was semi-successful - I could see a tiny prick of daylight if I held it at the rght angle. So I bolted it back on and fired her up. That's more like it - much more fruity and felt a bit peppier too.
Next up I swapped the 48 tooth rear sprocket for a 44 tooth - I ordered the satndard sprocket for a Suzuki TS125, whic bolted stright on. This really improved things, 1st gear become useful, and weirdly improved acceleration - I think because I now don't have to change up to 2nd about 1 milisecond after pulling away! It's also made high speed riding les buzzy, but didn't really add much top end - I have got 75mph out of her, but in normal conditions she races up to 60, and anything extra is very much dependent on gradients, headwinds etc..
I still wasn't happy with the exhaust's restictiveness though, and trawled this and other forums forslip on options - none seemd avialble in this country. Then I struck gold on e-bay, Xian Racing do a 'P&P' pipe for £65 which they claimed should fit most chines 125-200cc bikes. but might require a bit of inginuity. I though 'what the heck', and ordered one on Thursday. It came the next day , and I have just fitted it today - wow. Firstly, it is literally a slip on, it fits the header pipe exactly and tightly.It dopesn't have slits or a jubilee type clip on it, but to be honest it doesn't need one.I fitted it with some exhaust repair gum ( Sets to a solid, heat proof seal), and bolted it to the bike with the supplied strap, which lines up with the first mounting (nearest the front of the bike).The end rests against the rearmost mount, and when bolted up, it feels very solid.There are no leaks at the join (which is more than I can say for the original), and it sound awesome. A quick test ride has confirmed a definite power increase, acceleration is much improved. Haven't had a chance to test out if any top speed has been gained yet though.Am very happy though, it looks WAY better than the original, and must have saved at least 2 kg in weight!
Other minor mods I have done are:
-Removed pillion pegs ( they look ugly, and I won't be using the bike to carry a passenger)
-Removed the rear tool holder thingy
-Fitted a tailpack, which bungies nicely to the grab rails.I have put the tool kit in there as well
-Fitted mirror extenders, so I can now see more than my elbows!
-Put an '08' race number on the front, because its my favourite number! I have an 8 tattoo on my arm and I have called the bike 'Lucky Eight'!
Overall I am ver happy, i've put another 750Km on the clock, and the only problem I've had has been an ongoing battle to adjust the valve clearances myself (which some other members will now about!).I thought I'd check/adjust them at 1000Km, but now they are worse than when I started, After 5 goes, I've just introduced a rattly noise......probably gonna just take it to a pro and stump up the 1hr labour cost for peace of mind.
Anyway, here are some pics, the first one was taken after my initial standard exhaust mod, and I took the other two today showing the new exhaust.

Great write-up ed209. Agree with all the points raised. Have been looking for an alternative exhaust and it seems I've found it.
As luck would have it a poster on a British forum, Gareth Truscott, who uses the nick "Shy:", runs that Chinese bike tuning shop in Newport (Wales, UK) and has that exhaust on his e-bay shop. I'll contact him to get one for mine.

You've probably already trawled this forum for items about your bike. There are lots if you search for "Qingqi", including a tutorial on setting the tappets.

Hi Forchetto,
I've read your intro post and found it very interesting and informative.I just wanted to ask a few things about the airbox and carb.
Firstly, like you I've blanked off the emmisions port at the front of the exhaust header (since there is no cat in the P&P), but was wondering what you did about the airbox inlet hole.Did you blank this off as well or leave it open?At the moment mine is open - I've also drilled 3 holes in the airbox lid ( read that this can be a good halfway house beteween stock and a K&N, I noted that you had no success with that). I drilled the holes before I fitted the P&P and it seemd to make a positive difference.What do you think-good or bad idea?
Secondly since I now have a much free-er breathing pipe, I guess I need to adjust the fuel/air screw to make it richer, but I have to confess I don't actually know where this is.I've guessed it's the screw directly above the carb/engine port, as it seems to turn easily either way (so makes me think it's adjusting something as opposed to holding something in), but would you be able to confiorm if I'm right please?
And yes I have seen the tutorials on valve adjustment, I took my inspiration from the sticky thread posted by ChinaV.I had 3 more goes today, but it's still a bit rattly, nothing major but a bit of a tapping sound.The bike has now been warmed too much to adjust them again today. I just don't seem to have the knack as I have been trying to do exactly what the tutorials say! I've made sure I am at TDC on the compression stroke when I adjust it by using a thumb on the spark plug hole top feel the compression, and then using a screwdriver in the sparkplug hole as a guage.My initial attempts were relying on the timing mark, which seems to not be at exactly TDC. I think I might just get my local mechanic to do it (hopefully they won't refuse as its not a Jap bike...), the labour would only be about £35, and I've so far wasted about 5 fruitless hours of my own time!
Finally, just one last question as you seem to know your onions about bike engines - will riding the bike with slightly rattly valves do any damage - it would only be for a few days - 80 miles. I'd like to keep riding it to work as I've been cursed by the God of motorcycle reliability this week - my VFR800 lost 3rd gear on Thursday! I can ride around it by changing up from 2nd to 4th ,but obviously this is not ideal, and is goingto be expensive to fix!
Many thanks
Ed209 (Dan)

Ed,

That sounds like some great work on your bike and I'm sure you've put a lot of blood sweat and tears into it. Not sure what's up with the valves but it's worth noting that since the tanks is already off sometimes it's good to take off the whole valve cover (it's not that much extra effort) to expose and see the whole internal workings of the head. This will also likely give you more working room for the feeler gauges.

Riding a bike around with slightly loose valves won't cause any serious damage the engine, esp. over short distances. Overly tight valves are another issue and should be avoided.

My first bike was an 82' Honda VF750C and it was said that those bikes should be run with slightly loose valves meaning a little valve chatter when warm was a good thing. These QingQi's shouldn't have any chatter if properly adjusted and the simplicity of these engines is actually a benefit. :scooter:

Both ChinaV and I have taken these bikes (not the motard version) through some serious crap and while other things (like loose and snapping spokes) were annoying, the engine kept on ticking over. I don't think an 80 miles ride will kill the engine as long as you're not whipping it all the time - which is easy to do with a super-mo I'm sure! :riding:

CC

Carl and Ed, see my dire warnings and advice on removing the rocker cover on the thread in the link below, post Nº9...(I haven't been called a prophet of doom in another forum for nothing...)
http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...=3468#post3468

To reply to your post Ed, I have blanked off the air filter hole as it's placed downstream of the filter element and any air and dirt that gets in there goes straight to the engine unfiltered. Just found a suitable bung and fitted it.

After my failure to improve things by dumping the airbox, I did try to run the bike without the airbox lid with no improvement, but I have heard about the compromise solution of drilling the holes in the filter box lid, and in fact have obtained some various sizes of blanking plugs in case I do it and it doesn't work.
So far I haven't had the courage to do so...What size holes did you use?. Do you cover those holes when washing the bike to stop water getting to the filter element?.

Just to give you an idea of how critical airbox design must be with CV carbs, note the photo below. It shows the "snorkel" end of our air intakes. The portion just under the nose of the seat. It has been cut-off by someone seeking to "improve" on the factory's airbox arrangements. Did they not think that the hidden from view, internal "cones" that took a lot of design by a competent airflow engineer and brings with it production and moulding complication, could just have been 3 plain holes?. Why go to all that trouble?. Those cones speed up the air stream as it enters the airbox. CV carbs are critical of not just air quantity, pressure differentials, etc but air velocity as well.

Of course they will say "hey, it runs farking great now, wheelies, blah, blah, blah...", but then again you would say that after hacking (and irreversibly wrecking) that component to pieces and finding their low and mid range torque disappeared, wouldn't they?.

http://www.telecable.es/personales/a...takeholes2.jpg

What I have heard is that some tuning shops install a better type of foam filter on similar-engined Suzukis, which have a similar element inside, although their airboxes are a slightly different shape.

The screw you talk about is indeed the mixture adjuster. Mine came 2 1/2 turns out as standard. As it's a CV carb, Turn anticlockwise to richen the mixture. On mine I found that no amount of adjustment made much difference an had to increase the size of the pilot or idle jet from 32.5 to 34. The idle screw is now at 1 1/2 turns out and has plenty of adjustment range.

On CV carbs this idle jet/mixture screw set-up adjusts a far greater range of speeds than just idle. It affects a huge portion of the throttle range. This is why idle jets on CV carbs are so big compared to idle jets on slide carbs.

It's reckoned that the idle circuit affects up to 3/4 throttle, the engine is getting most of its mixture from the pilot jets, not the jet
needle/needle jet combined orifice. Compared to the pilot jets in an older slide valve carburetor, the CV carb has a huge orifice. Whereas a slide valve carb might have a Nº17 pilot jet ( the hole is 0.17 mm in diameter ), a CV carb might have a Nº30 to Nº45 pilot jet. As I've said before our comes with a 32.5 jet.

We all learned to calculate the area of a circle in junior high school. The Nº45 pilot jet has SEVEN times the area as the Nº17 pilot jet.

With a freer-breathing set-up such as yours with an opened airbox and freer exhaust you might have to increase the main jet size by 15% or so. The standrd one on mine is a 1.225. Perhaps take up to a 1.34. Keep an eye on the colour of the plug insulator to see if it runs very white, rather than a greyish-brownish tinge, which would be about right.

From your description it sounds as if you've found TDC on the compression stroke allright. I imagine you have lined up the "T" mark on the magneto rotor with the index mark and felt the compression through the plug hole as you say. I've doing tappet adjustments for years but found this engine particularly awkward. You have to break off bits of the feeler gauges and then bend them into funny shapes to fit in. Even then, tightening the nut causes the setting to go tight and we start all over again...A few days with a bit of a rattle shouldn't damage anything, though.

By a dealer I imagine you mean someone used to working on Suzukis. This engine is identical to a DR200, so they shouldn't have any trouble working on yours.

Hope you find that 3rd gear on your VFR800. It may be only a fault with the selector mechanism, and not anything that has to have the engine split.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by forchetto

Carl and Ed, see my dire warnings and advice on removing the rocker cover on the thread in the link below, post Nº9...(I haven't been called a prophet of doom in another forum for nothing...)
http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...=3468#post3468

---

Whoa! Looks like I missed that one! So much for the regular ol' valve cover. Note taken!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by forchetto

Did they not think that the hidden from view, internal "cones" that took a lot of design by a competent airflow engineer and brings with it production and moulding complication, could just have been 3 plain holes?. Why go to all that trouble?. Those cones speed up the air stream as it enters the airbox. CV carbs are critical of not just air quantity, pressure differentials, etc but air velocity as well.

---

Do the internal cones speed up the air flow into the box (like drinking straws) or change the natural resonant frequency of the box (kind of like the tuning ports in a band-pass sub-woofer)? Maybe both?

CC

http://www.telecable.es/personales/a...takeholes2.jpg

Almost forgot, would you guys happen to have links to the aftermarket pipes you found for the QingQi?

CC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Do the internal cones speed up the air flow into the box (like drinking straws) or change the natural resonant frequency of the box (kind of like the tuning ports in a band-pass sub-woofer)? Maybe both?

---

Don't know Sir! I'm not that clever:icon10: There might be something of both things. My Mazda MX-5 for instance, has a Helmholtz resonator box in the air admission system, so sound waves do come into it.
I do know velocity is important. I had a lot of trouble with a mini buggy after modifying the intake that was only solved by narrowing down a section of the intake pipe to speed the air flow. Something to do with a Mr Bernoulli's effect.

Here's a link to the exhaust in the e-bay shop run by Gareth:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Exhaust-Rear-C...3A1|240%3A1318

His web site doesn't work yet, but when it does the address is:

www.xianracer.com

Here's the can. It's made of stainless steel, by the way. Can't be bad.

http://i7.ebayimg.com/06/i/001/17/22/edf6_1.JPG

Good ol' Herman VonHelmholtz. I did a science project in High School building band-pass sub-woofers using the Helmholtz Equation to try and calculate optimal port length. That was some crazy stuff!

I had read an article on Natural Resonant Frequency (NRF) as it pertains to motorcycles sometime in the past but can't remember the details. I found a great link from California Sciences that discusses the application and importance of NRF to motorcycle air-boxes in particular. Its got more equations than you can shake a stick at!

If you have 10 minutes, it's quite short and really worth reading.

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Airboxes.html

Some quotes:

"...In the '70s, the US government started making noise regulations tighter. At some point, the manufacturers realized that the noise from the air intake was part of their problem. They started to look for ways to muffle not only the exhaust, but the intake roar too. Sound waves are pressure pulses in the air. Pistons pull in air on their intake stroke, creating a low pressure pulse in the air box. Then on the compression, power, and exhaust strokes the intake valve is closed and the air box is free to return to atmospheric pressure. These alternating low pressure and normal pressure pulses are sound waves. The manufacturers needed some way to dampen them out."

"... So at resonance, air flows through a tuned air box almost without resistance. This is as close as we can get to a superconductor of air. "

"The idea that the snorkel makes for a significant impediment to air flow into the engine is questionable at best. Drilling holes to let in more air is exactly equivalent to drilling holes in your speaker cabinets to let out more sound. Removing the snorkel from your air box is the exact same thing as removing the port in your speakers, the tube that's carefully engineered to have just the right diameter and length to reinforce the bass on your speakers at low frequencies. By altering your air box in any significant fashion, you're most likely going to cost yourself three to five hp in the mid range, and gain nothing measurable at high rpms. "

Paz,
CC

To reply to your post Ed, I have blanked off the air filter hole as it's placed downstream of the filter element and any air and dirt that gets in there goes straight to the engine unfiltered. Just found a suitable bung and fitted it.
After my failure to improve things by dumping the airbox, I did try to run the bike without the airbox lid with no improvement, but I have heard about the compromise solution of drilling the holes in the filter box lid, and in fact have obtained some various sizes of blanking plugs in case I do it and it doesn't work.
So far I haven't had the courage to do so...What size holes did you use?. Do you cover those holes when washing the bike to stop water getting to the filter element?

Aha, I hadn't thought of the downstream of the filter part - I blanked it off this morning by reconnecting a a short length of the original tubing, which I gaffer taped closed. Regarding the holes in the airbox lid, I drilled 3 as there were 3 natural moulding circles on the inside which I used as a guide.No real science, it just seemed neat at the time.I figured that if it caused issues, I would just tape over the holes.Now that CrazyCarl has brought up the interesting issue of sound resonance, I don't know whether it was a good idea or not! But on a similar note, if it was that critical , then surely the removal of the emmisions tube would have also had an effect, adverse or otherwise? I might tape up the holes anyway as an experiment, although I must say that performance wise the end can has made a big improvement - accelaertion up to 60mph is much better.Above that, its the same old story of headwinds and gradients, 75mph still being the most I have got. Speaking of which, is this the sort of top end performance other people have been getting from the Quinqi 200? And in 1st to 4th it revs round to 9,000, but in 5th won't rev higher than 7,500, is this normal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed209

Speaking of which, is this the sort of top end performance other people have been getting from the Quinqi 200? And in 1st to 4th it revs round to 9,000, but in 5th won't rev higher than 7,500, is this normal?

---

I think that's bound to happen when in top gear and full speed. Maybe you're reaching a terminal velocity of sorts where the engine/gearing combo can't produce enough power to accelerate the bike past a certain speed given weight and various forms of resistance. It's not like there's a whole bunch of bodywork creating a nice little pocket of air for the rider to sit in and reduce drag. And it's not like the engine has a whole lot to work with in the first place.

My 98' Suzuki Bandit 1200 would top out at around 140mph with a top case on. It didn't matter how much more you opened the throttle (it was WOT anyway) it would not go any faster. The Bandits were not designed for top end power like the GSXR's and lost most of it's oomph in the top 25% of the rev range.

CC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

If you have 10 minutes, it's quite short and really worth reading.

---

That was really interesting and puts paid to all those airbox shade tree mechanic mods.

It is true that in the past some bikes and cars had badly designed airboxes that could benefit from home-brewed mods, the Honda CB400N for example was particularly bad in that respect, but nowadays you only have to look at the enormous and sophisticated shapes of airboxes in Jap superbikes to realise that there's a lot of science in this area and we have very little hope of improving on it with our drills and Dremel cutters.

As a curiosity, bikes had very little available space for a decent well designed airbox until the Twin-spar or Deltabox type frame was introduced. This did away with the top tubes, increased frame rigidity no end and as a bonus, it enabled engineers to spread the airboxes over the top of the engine, greatly improving performance.

What a lot of people don't appreciate is that it was not Yamaha that invented the Deltabox frame. The inventor and developer was a Spanish engineer, Antonio Cobas, who successfully raced his own designs for steel and aluminium twin-spar frames.

This is well documented in literature produced by such chassis authorities as Tony Foale, etc, but the average biker can't possibly believe that a privateer and self-taught engineer (never mind a Spaniard!!) could teach the Japs a thing or two, and start a new frame craze that's followed by most manufacturers now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed209

Then I struck gold on e-bay, Xian Racing do a 'P&P' pipe for £65 which they claimed should fit most chines 125-200cc bikes.

---

Are these P&P pipes 'neighbour friendly'?

I prefer not to wake the world when I go for a ride through the city.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingmarty45

Are these P&P pipes 'neighbour friendly'?

I prefer not to wake the world when I go for a ride through the city.

---

I've just ordered one from the UK. Probably have it fitted by the weekend, but I would think it sounds quite "throaty" (i.e. Loud) from the description given by the seller. Most of these mufflers are of the "straight through" or "absortion" type of silencer. They consist of a perforated inner tubing surrounded by fibre wool. This material soon disappears with mileage and the sound gets louder and louder.
Some of them are repackable with new wool, some have to have the rivets drilled out and replaced with screws to make them repackable.
There are other more sophisticated designs about, complete with things like spark arresters, configurable baffle systems, etc, but they're a great deal more expensive than the P&P one, of the order of $230 to $300.

Here's a diagram of the typical construction of an absortion silencer, sorry about the Spanish annotations:

http://www.telecable.es/personales/a...-glasspack.jpg

thanks Forchetto, i like the diagram too, muy bueno :thumbsup:

I checked ebay and the Xian racing seller isn't posting outside the Uk. Their website comes online (apparently) in a few days so hopefully they will consider shipping internationally through there.

A bit of noise never hurt the rider!

I know Gareth Truscott (Xian Racing) from both being contributors to a UK forum:
http://www.thechinesebikeforum.com

He doesn't send things abroad normally because he's had problems with parcels going astray in the past. I am arranging my own transport through the same carrier my company uses to bring goods from the UK, so it should be OK, and he has agreed to sell me stuff.

Maybe you can be a distributor!?!?! Just watch out for the green-eyed monster! :lol8:

CC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Maybe you can be a distributor!?!?! Just watch out for the green-eyed monster! :lol8:
CC

---

"There's many a true word spoken in jest". I own and run a small manufacturing company making industrial electronic products and have been considering some sort of diversification, setting up some distributorships or something like that. I have even thought of importing Chinese bikes and setting up a dealership that would work properly and not like the sort of thing we have at the moment here in Spain. Lots of incompetents and fly-by-night merchants about.

I wouldn't stick to just one maker, but bring in a selection of the sort of bikes I think are best. The Qingqis already have an importer, and they're good, with virtually 100% spares availability and they send the bikes all over Spain already assembled and tested, and not in bits inside a crate. I could simply become a dealer for them, as they have very few in the country. I have lost count of the number of folks that ask me where they can get one like mine.

Sadly the present economic situation has put paid to any plans or dreams as we batten down the hatches and see if we can survive this fine mess our finantial wizzards have gotten us into.

Hi

I want to ask something...
I bought my bike in second hand and the previous owner modified the air box.
He cut the "snorkel" end of air intakes (like the photo in this topic), I supposed with idea of letting more air in.
The bike runs good, but after read this topic,I don't know if I should get a new airbox or not.
What do you think? forchetto told that runs a bike with a modified airbox could be dangerous right?

Thank you
Mario

hi guys im new here ,,, well i was traying to look for some mods for my bike i have the same bike supermoto 200 , and i did the same things as ed209 i cut off the carbs holes and i put a diferent yet needle in my it was a 122.5 and i put a 130 i am thinking to use a bigger one like 135 but to be honest i really feel a lot of diference betwen the 122.5 to 130 i was a great improve and the engine star to run cold (before it was running hot) ,, well i have a question wat hapen if i use a bigger spacer betwen the carb and the engine head i been reading a lot and most of the people say that one inch of space betwen the carb and the engine head can make a good improve well what do you think guy abouth that ?(and i was looking the sport bikes and most of then have a big space betwent this to parts) off course there is no a space in tha area but i can make it work i was thinking on take of the carb box and use a 2 inch hoses and put a k&n filter under the seat well traying to do nice work over ther lol ok guys take care ,,, sorry for my english im spanish but i think you can understandme