Jincheng and CMX250 based concepts

Suggestions from Oberdan Bezzi, these are off his motochetches blog, I translated the content and edited it only so it made sense as the translation to English became awkward to read. The original post dated THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 2008, so they are not new.




JINCHENG TWINTRACKER & MIDITWIN 250


Two proposals for another Chinese giant who wants to look out on the Western scene of the motorcycle market.

Both equipped with a twin-facing air-cooled 4-stroke engine (CMX250) being proposed on a variety of models (mostly custom) from JINCHENG for the markets of the Far East.

The model wants to fit in the emerging genre of TWINTRACKER Supermotard / Streetracker from cities in which at the time the proposals in the cylinder 250 are few.

The MIDITWIN is instead a proposed "alternative", a real motorcycle naked, but with more compact dimensions starting from the wheels, a genre that has set a trend in Japan for years and if JINCHENGwants to enter in Europe with then a plus would be a twin cylinder engine


A nice comuter with no real serious performance, but that might appeal to those who are always in search of the vehicle just to stand out.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...WIN2501024.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...KER2501024.jpg

Here is another post....translated and unedited.

Almost all the Chinese manufacturers of motorcycles, also market an endless series of small engines fitted to an infinite number of additional vehicles, mostly indigestible for Western audiences.

Yet a scramblerino of 250 cc., Twin, with two marmittine one hand, an auxiliary tank and a nice comfortable saddle, we are sure you would not be welcome?

No inventions or "chinoiserie" in bad taste, a motorcycle with a simple, linear engine performance "sufficient" and very low consumption of off-road genre on the Japanese 70's.
It might even become a FASHION!

Appointed to this task should be Zongshen that has a nice catalog 4T 250cc twin-cylinder air-cooled, which would be ideal for a bike like that and that has expansionist ambitions in those countries where such a means would be fertile ground.



OBIBOI.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y..._by_obiboi.jpg

Source
http://motosketches.blogspot.com/search?q=250

It should not take to much imagination to see that the Chinese 250cc engines can fit into many of these designs.

Problem is, with this 234cc engine (which I have in my bike) is heavy, thirsty and a bit underpowered (compared with a modern EFI single as in the YBR250). Makes sense in some ways as a twin is a sweet engine for a road bike, but it really is time for one or two of these manufacturers to get hold of a lighter, air-cooled, EFI twin, say from the last 10 years it would really be more appealing.

First things first, these were and still are just a way they can establish themselves with brand names in the market. Then they can develop the next versions that are more performance oriented, these looks are very special and could do well if the lines developed into larger more powerful versions.


These are all show for sure and the concepts are the same thing but the show is just different.
http://www.hoejlunds-auto.dk/pics/jc250-6-s.jpg


I would never buy one of these Rebel copies, but the others concepts I would but only if well made and well supported.


It is all about life cycles of products, the CMX250 has had a real long run, I do not think it needs to go away there is always going to be entry levels and those do not need to be performance bikes, they are just for fun and just for attracting and acclimating new riders, but also they can be just a commuter that offers a personal design/style statement.


Honda only offers a few cruisers in the USA for 2012


One is actually morphing into a roadster.
Honda Shadow RS
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...lue_42515B.jpg

Оnline translatоr is killing me...

Man wrote: "Eppure uno scramblerino di 250 cc., bicilindrico, con le due marmittine da un lato, un bel serbatoietto e una sella comoda , siamo sicuri che non sarebbe gradito?"

And this electronic wonder come up with: "Yet a scramblerino of 250 cc., Twin, with two marmittine one hand, an auxiliary tank and a nice comfortable saddle, we are sure you would not be welcome?"

Cute little tank became auxiliary tank, one side has become one hand, they never heard italian plural for muffler... Damn, my English is better then their Italian... And that's no good... :icon10:

These sketches I see as confirmation that any decent Chinese bike factory can assemble a team of half a dozen people: a pair of designer and true motor enthusiasts who will shape the product, one engineer, one technologist who will say "This detail we can produce at a given price, and this we can't.", one realistic marketing manager ...

It is five ...

And someone to take care for catering.

This is a half-dozen that I mentioned.

Result of their work could be something else than today's offer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorge

Оnline translatоr is killing me...

Man wrote: "Eppure uno scramblerino di 250 cc., bicilindrico, con le due marmittine da un lato, un bel serbatoietto e una sella comoda , siamo sicuri che non sarebbe gradito?"

And this electronic wonder come up with: "Yet a scramblerino of 250 cc., Twin, with two marmittine one hand, an auxiliary tank and a nice comfortable saddle, we are sure you would not be welcome?"

Cute little tank became auxiliary tank, one side has become one hand, they never heard italian plural for muffler... Damn, my English is better then their Italian... And that's no good... :icon10:

These sketches I see as confirmation that any decent Chinese bike factory can assemble a team of half a dozen people: a pair of designer and true motor enthusiasts who will shape the product, one engineer, one technologist who will say "This detail we can produce at a given price, and this we can't.", one realistic marketing manager ...

It is five ...

And someone to take care for catering.

This is a half-dozen that I mentioned.

Result of their work could be something else than today's offer.

---

I actual heard an Italian dialect while I read it and then got hungry.

Honda's new Shadow is aligning on the trend back to standards, HD sees that and is addressing it as well.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...n/HDXR1200.jpg

This is redundant but, the V250 also exists in production in china.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...ird/hbmoto.jpg

In this recommendation, he merely calls for an update, raises the seat and moves the foot controls back to mid-position.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...VIRAGOOBI2.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Problem is, with this 234cc engine (which I have in my bike) is heavy, thirsty and a bit underpowered (compared with a modern EFI single as in the YBR250). Makes sense in some ways as a twin is a sweet engine for a road bike, but it really is time for one or two of these manufacturers to get hold of a lighter, air-cooled, EFI twin, say from the last 10 years it would really be more appealing.

---

You made me check what the fuel economy of the Rebel is, its actually rated at 84MPG that’s not thirsty, it actually very good?


http://powersports.honda.com/2014/re...fications.aspx


The application that Honda submitted to the EPA for the 2012 has the CMX250 rated at 13.6kW @8500rpm and that’s really nothing to get excited about but 18.50 is respectable for that displacement.


But that is the 2012 Honda version of the engine, the Chinese versions do not share the numbers of the Honda original. So if we talk about refinements, that is a goal, to get to the level of the original.


The Rebel has a curb weight of 330lb that’s the wet weight according to Honda, not light .


With a top speed of 70mph its not a Highway motorcycle, it’s a learner and or a commuter.


It all makes me think it should be Honda developing a line in china off that engine or contracted to set up production of the engine to its specifications?

Yes, it's bit heavy and underpowered, shaky too, but thirsty?

The V-Star 250, according to Yamaha has a curb weight of 232lbs, its rated at 78mpg.

I have to say that whoever does the data entry for the EPA could get tested for dyslexia. My best guess on the power rating for the VX250 is 14.4kW @7500 rpm, but I am reluctant to think the information in the EPA database is accurate, I can spot data entry errors. They confused the XT with the XV the former has 16.4kw and both have a “c” version for California and they have their numbers crossed a couple of times. It bother me because we all here are paying allot for government and its disturbs me when I see that.

The 19.58hp rating listed sounds about right, but a bit generous, for the VX250 and 22.3hp seems a bit generous for the XT250 as well that is the engine in the YBR250, but that information comes from the manufactures.

Considering all the armchair journalist and variability in specification published on the internet, the EPA data is closer to the bible then much of their inaccurate regurgitations. There is primary data and secondary data, what is the source is always a valid question.

I request government to manage and regulate the propagation of primary data and all others be held accountable to any misrepresenting it. I will pay taxes for that and not for haphazard data entry and inaccurate numbers and propagating false information with the intention to mislead that is already a crime, what is missing is primary control and repositories for primary data that the manufacturers submit and the government monitors.

If you have a copyright then that’s great, if you claim one and do not then get it together that’s copyblight.
http://www.jetlaw.org/wp-content/jou.../Tehranian.pdf

The problem with big government is the same as that of no government, that’s about overgrown egos over stepping boundaries. Data repositories should be open to all to see and then primary sources of information can be checked by anyone.

Entry level is low power.
18-19hp is not too low.

They can make those and sell the concept bikes they just need to legitimize the method they bring them to the market with, the people they are often dealing with are incorrigible.

The Japanese have laws about information the source and the reuse of it monitored, it can be trusted as accurate.

The Chinese should study that and work to or aspire to the Japanese standards, not that the Japanese are all angles, but having regulatory control over the primary information prevents misleading or misrepresenting numbers.

There are variances between engines that are manufactured in Japan compared to those manufactured in China. Certain engines can be compared directly, the CMX250(Honda) and VX250(Yamaha) can be compared directly. You cannot find bad reviews of the Japanese versions, you can find little on the Chinese versions as for reviews, comparing them directly is something for the Chinese engineers to revisit. The hp ratings are lower on the Chinese version and can range between 8-17% depending on the source.


How can anyone have confidence in any larger displacement engine production considering the variances of Chinese manufacturer engines that can be directly compared with Japanese originals.


The Chinese manufacturers should focus on these two engines and be striving to get them to the Japanese standards, then release them in new frames and in new design forms, like the ones in the images above.


Honda CMX250 2012 MSRP $4,190.00
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fgf9JIZwG8..._wallpaper.jpg




Yamaha VX250 2012 MSRP $4,190.00
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y.../Virago250.jpg


Both of these are decent for what they are, they offer decent power and also fuel efficiency and they are not dirty either both have respectable emissions and the Japanese version both have EPA certificates for 2012.


But they are old designs, they have not taken any new forms in decades.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJH

You made me check what the fuel economy of the Rebel is, its actually rated at 84MPG that’s not thirsty, it actually very good?

---

Yeah, that's for the original Honda engine. I can tell you from personal experience with the clone chinese engine it's not anywhere near as efficient. I know, technically speaking if the the clone engine and original engine put out the same power surely they should use the same amount of fuel, but somehow not.

What I know about the Chinese versions of this twin engine, is that they can vary in terms of peaceful and quiet work, more or less vibrations, and also in fuel consumption. If I remember correctly, guys from our local moto forum came to the conclusion, that because of the slightly different carburetors, Qingqi's cruiser consumes less than almost identical Kinroad with virtually same power, acceleration and top speed.

The conclusion imposes itself: this old twin engine is good as much is its manufacturer willing to invest some extra resources to make a quality product.

The Japanese engines both the CMX250 and the VX250 use a 26mm constant velocity carburetor.


Gilera VCR-250
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...0NEGROM2-1.jpg


Cixi Kingring (Jinlun)
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...250p_002-1.jpg


The Gilera is not bad but the Oberdan designs actually make me forget about the modest engine, they are new and different. I could get by with the engine if it was made as well as the Honda and came in a real cool design. If they could get them to the market for about 3K they would sell allot of them, but that is assuming they got everything right.

I actually prefer the VX250, but would not right off the CMX250 it has potential.


These should be easier to bring to the market and can be copies of the original, but they would have to check to see if Yamaha has retained any right to the design.


http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...050212SRV2.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...050212SRV4.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...393855959L.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...394721348L.jpg

Could have manufactured this…
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...WIN2501024.jpg
But instead choose this…
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...250-6-crop.jpg



Jinchengs production YTD midyear 2012 is down 50% from YTD last year, their corporate website is a disaster. They abuse the Suzuki trademark to new levels, they stick the Suzuki trade mark next to nearly everything they sell. That is difficult to see since it takes several attempts to even get to anything material on their website.
They have marketing images of the above JC250-6 with the Suzuki emblem displayed, the bike at best is a modified version of a Honda, so all they are doing is copying one famous brands bike while prostituting it under a different famous brand. What is interesting is that while raving about creating a famous brand “Jincheng” they are actually failing miserably and offering up what can only be perceived as embarrassing for them.


They find a pretty model and pose her next to a version of a model that has been over produced to ridiculous extremes.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...0JC250-6-1.jpg


I think the expression is “canned” selling “cool” is canned, buying into it is a panacea, its not cool it is on the other side of it? Doing the same thing as the majiority is playing into convention, that’s not rebellious is it. it’s a sort of march stepping fold of followers. In other words its gross.

Although, bike looks interesting and different from the models from which it originated.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7051/saroz1781fo.jpg

Yes it’s a sport version…all the chrome bits are now painted black. I am sure there are people that like it, its just I do not imagine that many.
The Italian designer simply offered a low cost alternative to that engine, one that would appeal to different people.


From a manufacturing stand point offering multiple versions of an engine has value, it keeps costs down, but so does simply adding plastic parts and that is the option the Chinese often take.


The little sport bike would turn new heads and attract new audiences? But it all has to be presented professionally or people simply shy away.


With 50% looses in production….they could not do worse less they chose to chase off buyers with a stick.

Not sure but it is possible that Jinlun, Kinroad and Yamasaki are all part of Jincheng Group?

You haven't realized that creating subsidiary companies has become Chinese national sport?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorge

You haven't realized that creating subsidiary companies has become Chinese national sport?

---

also the writing of sentences that lack action words…..

'Yamasaki', still a classic. :lol8:

Yet Hondaha, Honzuki, Kawaszuki remain unused? Surely some government employed no imagination inbred will discover these 'gems' as extra names to hide their 2nd rate bikes with a terrible reputation for quality and customer service. No, we're not 'Golden Dragon Jade Star Wind inc' we're Ducata-Guzzi this week mate.:lol8:

You would not believe, but this Yamasaki has quite solid reputation in category of the 50 cc bikes.

My point was that such a large manufacturer as Jincheng, which is falling in rank like a brick has to have some marketing channels. If you Google the brand names I listed you will find lots of the brand names with images, the brands are in the markets.


It is possible that all these are subsidiaries for Jincheng and get engines from a Jincheng engine plant?
To be a subsidiary that typically means that the parent owns 51% of the child, they are typically a central source for funding, material and or technical resources.


In a more perfect system the Groups would detail their holdings and the channels they have to the market through those subsidiaries.


What is real and tangible apposed to all of it being a secret.


Ideally the parent offers a business process and platform it shares with its subsidiaries. However if they cannot or have not mastered that, then it’s the blind leading the blind. In that case it is a matter of the subsidies following the parent off the cliff.


The parent with majority shares if wise can differentiate its holdings, for instance the twin engines going to one that develops models around those.


Another may be focused on developing markets and or domestic sales?


But then getting the distribution channels sorted out may require some singularity, that being a common network that handles the supply into the markets, but doing that well requires a business system that should come from the parent. If that parent does not see that, then they should sell their holdings to those that can and will be better parents?


It is all conjecture since there is no list of subsidiaries and parents to consider, its all vague or anonymous, more about false pride and the very often fabricated accolades, then being anything tangible to consider.




The real tragedy would be a company that claimed a Japanese parent and in fact none existed, seems that would have negative impact through the company. It would license deceit as a charter, who would they be fooling, besides themselves?


http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y..._bike_50cc.jpg

There is a trading company on Alibaba that goes by the name Golden Motors, they have some familiar models listed.


But this one is a new version, I have no idea what factory is putting these together, it’s a CMX250 standard and not half bad looking.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...PA_chopper.jpg


http://www.sharewallpapers.org/d/594...00+2006+03.jpg
It just needs some adjustments...
The seat is not right, should be a standard seat, it does not need the dip in it, the rear fender could be revised and the taillight and directional’s as well. The controls should be mid set not forward.

Xinling is pursuing the use of the VX250 in the form of the SRV250, they have their version advertised on their Alibaba page.


I just would like to point out that the SRV250 had twin carburetors, two 26mm CV types tuned for more hp.
If they do decide to bring the bike to production they should consider that original configuration and for markets where it would meet emissions, namely the USA and Canada as well as others.


http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...058ad3c424.jpg
I believe that the air box is located under the tank? Nice to see a functional innovation?

A purchasing interface to the factories, that is how they should describe themselves and also how they should define their charter. They should differentiate on the manufactures brands and in that offer managed supply chain as services to the actual factory with actual real agents within the factories?