Driving in Shanghai: Traffic lights, big avenues and one-way streets?

Oy mates,


I have few questions regarding the way you drive with your motorbike in downtown Shanghai.
I use to have a Jiangsu plate so didn't care much about traffic lights, nor big avenues like Yan'an xi road for instance (where motorbike are not allowed), but as I'm a legal driver now (bought a 650NK, 1 month ago, will put a big review in 1 week), with an inner-ring license plate ( 沪A) I have to admit that, being more easy to traced, I have to re-think my driving way toward the chinese rules, still...

Here are my questions for the inner-ring license plate ( 沪A) owners:

- Are you respecting every traffic light, means you stop at every red light, whatever there's car or not? (there's no flash at crossroad, only cameras, but they don't fine so unless a cop stop you, it's the only chance you'll be fine 200 and lose 3 points: correct me if I'm wrong)
- Are you respecting single-way street, means you don't drive on the bycicle lane, or emergency lane which allow you to take the opposite direction?
- Are you respecting the rules toward big avenues (yan'an xi road, beijing xi road, huaihaizhong road,...) where big bikes are not allowed.

For the last question I was driving on beijing xi road, with my 650, where I'm not supposed to (unless it's later than 7pm) and I saw a cop so I drove to him and ask him if it was OK : he told me that as long as I don't stay on it for a long time, he wouldn't fine me, if it's just to a take a turn at the next crossroad, they generally tolerate it.

I admit that passing years in China corrected...hhhmm...corrupted my driving way, so please no sermon.

And you, what's your driving attitude toward the chinese traffic rules?

Cheers,


T.

I lived and rode in SH more than seven years ago so I won't comment. I wanted to say though in terms of my attitude towards the road rules, I generally tend to abide by them to a point. When riding in towns, or cities especially during the day light hours such as coming to a stop and abiding by traffic signs and signals. Where I may decide to violate the rules, I try to be courteous about it. Example: Traffic lights - come to a complete stop. Check all directions, is the way clear, check, double check, triple check then if clear - proceed. That said, this is usually out of town, in outskirts and such like.

I always make sure to avoid the triggering sensors for all red light and speed cameras. Irrespective of my intentions, law-abiding or otherwise. Generally motorcycles don't receive the fines other more substantial vehicles do for traffic violations (red light and speeding fines), but I don't want to be another motorcycle statistic that might add to the increasing weight of law breakers that proves the tipping point leading to enforcement or worse.

I do use my vehicle (bikes or car) horn no matter what local law might be in-force. Once the whole of the population is completely educated and have a smidgeon of road awareness and sense, I might not need to use the horn. Until then - liberal use of the horn it is. I don't have to contend with one way road systems so can't comment other than the odd time where a road is closed or partially so, due to reconstruction etc, I may use a cycle lane or some other pathway, but always do so with respect to other users. I do use the horn in these circumstances too. People actually expect it, and depend on it as a type of de-facto awareness device. Much like the "I don't use lights on my _________ but you have lights on, on your _________ so you can see me" type attitude.

Another thing is I want to lead by some form of example, and moreover do not want to be seen as some form of self entitled laowairen thinking I can do whatever I damn well please... "pot calling the kettle black" mindset I think is what I am getting at here.

my kauis worth...

Thanks for you input man. What about big avenues? Are you taking them despite the sign "motorbike forbidden"?
Have you ever be fined? Lost points?

I will be honest... With my 户A's I still often "ride like I stole it". Its not really about riding fast of dangerous I just ride like the local motorcyclist. However that being said I do avoid the camera sensors on the road when i can and I am always awrare that "Big Brother is watching" I try not to do anything that will attract to much attention. When I am on the 国道, i do the same thing, I ride the centerline when approaching cameras to avoid triggering them and slow down to the speed limit when I cannot avoid the sensor. Buddies on there Duc's have recieved speeding tickets while even in the countryside because of sensor cameras. They got the ticket in the mail:confused1:. They have even been stopped by the police at a provincial border tollbooths and made to pay on the spot:eekers:

However lacking the need to always scan for cops and worring about getting caught with a grey market bike with fake plates and registration is a health balance, in my opinion!

SF

Hi SF,


So you mean that you're avoiding the camera sensors by driving on the line in the center of the road right? By doing that it doesn't trigger the sensor? That's interesting.
What about the cameras at traffic lights is there any sensor cameras that fine at traffic light (if running a red light)?

At the moment I only putted the license plate on the back, as the front one is unaesthetic, plus police seems to be satisfied with the rear one only. What’s your opinion? Could it be a problem?

Cheers,


T.

are you crazy guys?
what are you discussing? I am not the most law abbiding women on earth, but that tops it.
I stop at every red light, drive on the correct lane, more or less obey the speed limits (+/- 10%)

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Originally Posted by Topmanda

Hi SF,
So you mean that you're avoiding the camera sensors by driving on the line in the center of the road right? By doing that it doesn't trigger the sensor? That's interesting.
What about the cameras at traffic lights is there any sensor cameras that fine at traffic light (if running a red light)?

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Most of the red light and speed cameras operate and are activated by an conduction (sensing) loop (rectangular shapes most often) embedded in the road surface. Usually these loops are usually confined to individual lanes but not always so. For example at multi-lane intersections where red light cameras are positioned there are often two sets of induction or sensing loops just prior to and then immediately after the white line where vehicles are required to stop at the intersection. Have a look at an intersection where red light cameras are mounted. If one looks carefully enough, one will likely see rectangular patterns on either side of the white painted lines of each lane where cuts has been made to the road surface and the conduction or sensing wire has been embedded. Like I say there are usually two sets of these loops on either side of the white line.

Sometimes there won't be any conduction/sensing loop in the right turn lane if the lane is not controlled by a traffic light/signal "arrow." This is the lane sometimes used by commercial drivers e,g, taxi drivers who become familiar with intersection layouts, to travel through lanes at intersections that have a red light in play at the time. They'd likely be observed using the right turn indicator/turn signal giving casual observers the impression that the drivers intent is to turn right, when actually they then proceed straight thru.

Speed cameras have a similar configuration. Again in multi-lane situations there are often separate conduction/sensing loops (rectangular patterns) for each lane. This means that there are areas often close to lane markings that separate one lane from another where the conduction/sensing loop is not embedded. Once one gets familiar with the configurations and what to look for it is often simple to identify where the conduction and sensing loops are embedded for any given application and situation. That being said though, occasionally conduction/sensing loops extend beyond the boundaries of just one lane. Also some speed camera conduction/sensing loops have multiple loops within or across multiple lanes including any "shoulder" lane e.g. bicycle lane, or sometimes the conduction/sensing loops are offset between multi-direction lanes, dependant on design. Some will trigger even when a vehicle is travelling in the opposite direction e.g. when driven on the wrong side of the roadway. On occasion infrared beams are used, though not as prevalent as the aforementioned conduction loops.

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Originally Posted by Topmanda

At the moment I only putted the license plate on the back, as the front one is unaesthetic, plus police seems to be satisfied with the rear one only. What’s your opinion? Could it be a problem?
Cheers,
T.

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Technically illegal, so if stopped by traffic police, you could either be asked where it is and let off with a warning, fined for not displaying it, not fined and not asked at all. It just depends on the situation at any given time. At the time of re-inspection though the plate must be attached otherwise the vehicle will fail the inspection.

I've heard that one state in the USA recently passed a law saying that motorcycles can proceed through a red light (it safe to do so) after waiting 2 minutes, because motorcycles do not trigger the road sensors.

Is there some minimum amount of metal mass necessary to interrupt the field embedded in the road?

In my experience, I've noticed that the bike's mass is sufficient to trigger the speed cameras, but I had assumed that these overhead cameras were triggered by a little radar sensor in, or near, the camera? Am I mistaken? Are these speed cameras triggered by road sensors?

There are many speed cameras around Beijing that supposedly take your photo, regardless of speed. One can see the flash activated as you pass by ... although I've kinda theorized that they must not be actually taking a picture, just activating the flash, as a deterrent. Given the number of vehicles passing by, there would be a massive number of photos to look through if these cameras are activated by any, and all, vehicles (at any speed). I've purposefully slowed down to well below the speed limit to see if one of these cameras would flash and, yup, it still does.

Many cameras in Chinese cities, and increasingly in rural areas and roadways, are there not to monitor speed or other violations, but simply to track traffic patterns and vehicles for case building. These video and still images can and are used by law enforcement to reconstruct criminal behaviors after the fact.

There are CSI-style TV shows being broadcast on Chinese television now that show police cracking criminal cases by electronically pursuing bad guys through town as they flee by watching them enter and exit the field of vision of those very cameras.

Yes, Big Brother lives and Orwell is grinning in his grave, but I, for one, do see social value in this. I hope the police are judicious in their use of this capacity, and hope they can clear the streets of lawless riders who put everyone else at risk when they flee law enforcement.

cheers!

Funny, I saw this so called CSI guys when my CB VTEC has been stolen, parked the bike in front of those bao’an at the main entrance of Imago a medium shopping centre, just in front of cameras. So I had the privilege to enter the record room of the district once I arrived at the police HQ to report the crime: about 30 screens, switching images every 5 sec. Consequently, I saw the faces of those thiefs (3 scooters on the side, 6 people, working tools on my disk block) for about 20 min on the side road with pedestrians walking by at 8pm on a Thursday.

Long story short, the “intellectuals” told me that they would track those rats using their cameras system all around town in order to see where they would stop, problem is: they changed districts which required another CSI room, with other “experts” not mentioning the authorizations papers that go with it.

I guess you know the end already...

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Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers

I will be honest... With my 户A's I still often "ride like I stole it". Its not really about riding fast of dangerous I just ride like the local motorcyclist. However that being said I do avoid the camera sensors on the road when i can[...]
SF

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Hey.

I see some Chinese drivers stopping at the lights, but some don't, hard to conclude anything.

Is ur address on ur driving license the one at which u currently live?

Have u ever received anything in the mail urself?

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Have u ever received anything in the mail urself?

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frequent monthly check of the Shanghai traffic ticket website helps: http://www.shjtaq.com/zwfg/dzjc_new.asp

You are crazy not to stop at traffic lights.
Just stop, stop, too much risk with other drivers just not seeing you.

Gra.

If you make sure that there's no one coming from both sides, I don't see the problem.

it's all relative to context. I'm not in a big city, and much of my riding is in towns, villages and mountains. Roads here where I am based are relatively quiet. I also purposely take routes that while longer in getting me where I want to go, are quiet and scenic. Getting from point A to B as quick as possible is not the focus of my rides, it's the journey I take a long the way...

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Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers

Road rage, assaults and just bad driving edicate reflects badly on everyone....

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Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers

I will be honest... With my 户A's I still often "ride like I stole it".

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So which is the real YOU? :lol8: - friday afternoon kiddding

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Originally Posted by TB-Racing

frequent monthly check of the Shanghai traffic ticket website helps: http://www.shjtaq.com/zwfg/dzjc_new.asp

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I check out clean.

Cheers.

Thanks for the link TB-Racing: much appreciated!

I stop for red lights, no matter what, and watch my back very carefully.
Heck, I even stop for green lights if I am not sure.

Remember, the deformation zone on a bike is only the thickness of your leathers!

I blow through as many lights as I can. I feel it's my duty as a citizen of the planet to not sit idling in traffic wasting precious fuel and polluting the environment with toxic fumes. Apply some basic traffic flow concepts to the light systems here and I'll consider obeying the lights. It's pretty easy to tell if it's safe, you just open your eyes and look around to see if there are other vehicles, if you don't see any, you can go. Being that I've only had 3 tickets for the 3000+ violations, I think it't pretty safe to conclude the camera system here works about as well as everything else.

Cheers!
ChinaV

The cameras are using weight sensors, just like the ones that trigger the traffic lights to change, that is why they wrote the law in Illinois, that laws allows people to proceed as if it s a stop sign once they determine the light is sensor controlled, because people on bikes and motorcycles were getting stuck at red lights that would never change, because the sensor will not pick them up, they are too lightweight to trigger the weight sensor.

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Originally Posted by MJH

The cameras are using weight sensors, just like the ones that trigger the traffic lights to change, that is why they wrote the law in Illinois, that laws allows people to proceed as if it s a stop sign once they determine the light is sensor controlled, because people on bikes and motorcycles were getting stuck at red lights that would never change, because the sensor will not pick them up, they are too lightweight to trigger the weight sensor.

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I'm not aware of the authorities using the weight sensing system here in PRC, but it's a big country so the flavour here maybe a different flavour elsewhere. Similar situation for the road markings, which in Zhejiang are applied using a hot naked flame, so is not the typical spray on paint surface - lethal when wet. But the same road marking technique used in this province may well differ elsewhere in the country. As to the sensors, the ones here are a electromagnetic conduction loop, rectangular pattern, embedded in the road way on each side of the lane marking.

3 tickets for running a red light I presume?

I just assumed that it was weight, never considered it was a magnetic field? So it would be the lack of metal mass of a motorcycle then not the weight.


There actually are several different types of systems.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-dr...ht-camera1.htm


I know we have them here the traffic light sensor are a rectangle in the pavement and do not sense the motorcycle, I would not chance the speed sensors though, I have been ticketed twice in the mail by them, happened in the car and at night the light from the flash is insane

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

Most of the red light and speed cameras operate and are activated by an conduction (sensing) loop (rectangular shapes most often) embedded in the road surface.

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China has one of the most advanced system for traffic cameras (speed, red light, ..) and at least in the big cities the induction loop technology is history, because it doesn't work well on muti-lane roads. Look at the cross beams at intersections and note several units, which are cameras, infrared flashes and radar motion detectors. Cams record a permanent video track and violations are marked on a event track. The video is monitored in real time to detect motion and calculate speed in interaction with traffic light signals. Software later automatically cuts out sequences x seconds before and y seconds after an event. Another application tries to read the number plate. A bunch of :lol8: guys are then putting it all together as violation in your record where they choose from a list of different "crimes" to determine your points and fines.

So far the theory ->

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

... I think it't pretty safe to conclude the camera system here works about as well as everything else.

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:lol8:

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Originally Posted by Topmanda

3 tickets for running a red light I presume?

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No, they were all speeding tickets in my car, all at the same camera. I always forget about that one when I get hammered and drive home. My buddy got hit by the same camera 11 times, when he went to pay they gave him a discount.

Why you guys worried about points, just use someone else's license when you pay the fines, almost every car wash offers that service, costs an extra 10-20 quai per ticket.

Cheers!
ChinaV

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

No, they were all speeding tickets in my car, all at the same camera. I always forget about that one when I get hammered​ and drive home.

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watch out the female forum police is going to get you......

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

My buddy got hit by the same camera 11 times, when he went to pay they gave him a discount.

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got a funny story as well, many years ago a mate bought a new VW Santana (black very basic model) and was speeding every night after 12 midnight along Yanan Elevated Road (from Peoples Square) in Shanghai to get home in Songjiang district, every night he had to pass approx. 20 speed cameras and he did so for two years. first car check up (after the initial 2 year period) he just walked away and left the car at the inspection station as the speeding tickets (fines) exceeded the value of the car (he never took the car out of Shanghai into another province as they would have stopped him at the check points / toll gates).

another good mate just lost his D-license for speeding on the expressway during the early morning (225k's in 100k zone in Zhejiang, Audi Q5) for two years, they got him at the toll gate coming into Shanghai municipality from Zhejiang province.

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Originally Posted by TB-Racing

another good mate just lost his D-license for speeding on the expressway during the early morning (225k's in 100k zone in Zhejiang, Audi Q5) for two years, they got him at the toll gate coming into Shanghai municipality from Zhejiang province.

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225 km/h on a Chinese expwy is a suicide attempt and, besides a hefty fine, he should have lost all his licenses (I wonder why one loses D for speeding with a car, but maybe because TIC). Plus, two weeks in a countryside madhouse among other lunatics would be a proper start to treat mental illness, which there obviously is.

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

... two weeks in a countryside madhouse among other lunatics would be a proper start to treat mental illness ...

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:lol8:

One of the few social programs in China funded by the government.

:thumbsup:

OK, here's my driving way in Shanghai:
- I often run through red light if it's safe (means arriving to a complete stop, look on both sides to check for potential incoming cars/scooters before going through), unless it's big crossroad.
- I drive on road forbidden to motorbikes (beijing xi rd, yan'an xi rd, hongqiao rd) but at slow speed, plus try no to stay on it too long
- I dont respect one way street, but I do respect pedestrians, cars and bikes arond (means I drive slowly and carefully).
- I often use the horn or go up in revs (some chinese just don't give a fuck to horning, but do care about a big Roar!) in order to make myself visible by cars, pedestrians around.

That's it: what's your way???