Headlights & fuel consumption

Weird topic, I know. But I am sure that anyone who has run with their headlights on, during the day, in China, has been confronted with "your headlights are on!"

A few days ago, I was stopped by the police for having my scooter's headlight on during the day. I was told that is was against the law, in China, but I was let off with a warning. Whatever.

Thereafter, I had a healthy argument with a Chinese friend, who insisted that having your headlights on results in increased fuel consumption. His side of the argument was based on "everyone knows this, how can you be so stupid?!?!?!"

I'm sorry, but this does NOT make sense to me. Please educate me.

IMHO, whatever type of charging system you have (e.g., stator; generator, alternator), there is NO additional mechanical load when the system is being subjected to an increased electrical load. That is, there is no additional mechanical resistance applied to the engine, as a result of the increased electrical load. The charger (e.g., a motorcycle's stator) is producing electricity at a rate which is affected only by RPM. If your stator/charging system is not producing enough juice, for whatever reason, there is no additional drag on the engine as the system tries to produce more electricity. That is not how the mechanics work in a copper-wrapped generating system. A demand for additional electrical current can NOT cause an increase in mechanical resistance.

This is very different than a car's A/C system, which engages the pump (connected by the serpentine belt) and therefore causes an additional mechanical load. Same with power steering pumps.

As I understand it, charging systems put out a fixed amount of current, affected only by RPM, to a certain maximum. When there is a need for additional current, the regulator provides it - when there is no additional need, the regulator dumps it.

Someone please explain to me how an increase in electrical requirements could possibly cause an increase in fuel consumption. It makes no sense. A stator/alternator is NOT subjected to an increased drag - the magnetic field is constant, the windings are constant, the only thing that affects current production is RPM.

Frankly, I think that riding without a helmet probably creates drag as your hair & oddly shaped face push through the wind! And the big-nosed laowai face is probably MORE aerodynamic than the flatter Asian face! I have never heard anyone say "hey, you're using too much gas. Put a helmet on. Oh, wait, you're a big-nosed laowai - never mind."

Dude, just let it go... you're never going to win the argument. You are correct, they are idiots times two. Once for arguing about the mileage, and once for not having lights permanently on which is proven to reduce accidents.

The other one I like is the "pulsing" drivers, these are the guys that constantly press and release the accelerator. That also increases mileage. :confused1::gun_bandana:

Cheers!
ChinaV

Simply tell your Chinese friend that you're a decadent rich man who could pay all the lights on a bike.

China is a country where actual scientific fact plays a secondary importance to 'common knowledge'.

A few gems over the years:
- A woman that eats an ice-cream when breast feeding will make the babies' milk cold
- Bread should be sweet
- Cold drinks are bad for your health
- Coffee is highly carcinogenic
- Hard tires are always the best as they last longer

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

Weird topic, I know. But I am sure that anyone who has run with their headlights on, during the day, in China, has been confronted with "your headlights are on!"

A few days ago, I was stopped by the police for having my scooter's headlight on during the day. I was told that is was against the law, in China, but I was let off with a warning. Whatever.

Thereafter, I had a healthy argument with a Chinese friend, who insisted that having your headlights on results in increased fuel consumption. His side of the argument was based on "everyone knows this, how can you be so stupid?!?!?!"

I'm sorry, but this does NOT make sense to me. Please educate me.

IMHO, whatever type of charging system you have (e.g., stator; generator, alternator), there is NO additional mechanical load when the system is being subjected to an increased electrical load. That is, there is no additional mechanical resistance applied to the engine, as a result of the increased electrical load. The charger (e.g., a motorcycle's stator) is producing electricity at a rate which is affected only by RPM. If your stator/charging system is not producing enough juice, for whatever reason, there is no additional drag on the engine as the system tries to produce more electricity. That is not how the mechanics work in a copper-wrapped generating system. A demand for additional electrical current can NOT cause an increase in mechanical resistance.

This is very different than a car's A/C system, which engages the pump (connected by the serpentine belt) and therefore causes an additional mechanical load. Same with power steering pumps.

As I understand it, charging systems put out a fixed amount of current, affected only by RPM, to a certain maximum. When there is a need for additional current, the regulator provides it - when there is no additional need, the regulator dumps it.

Someone please explain to me how an increase in electrical requirements could possibly cause an increase in fuel consumption. It makes no sense. A stator/alternator is NOT subjected to an increased drag - the magnetic field is constant, the windings are constant, the only thing that affects current production is RPM.

Frankly, I think that riding without a helmet probably creates drag as your hair & oddly shaped face push through the wind! And the big-nosed laowai face is probably MORE aerodynamic than the flatter Asian face! I have never heard anyone say "hey, you're using too much gas. Put a helmet on. Oh, wait, you're a big-nosed laowai - never mind."

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The guy is right, there is an increased fuel consumption with your lights on, negligible for the individual though.
In some European countries driving with light during the day is mandatory for all vehicles and later this decade it will be a EU wide regulation. Some of the Eco driven political parties fight against this with the increased fuel consumption argument.
My GS doesn't even have a switch to turn the headlights off and I had some funny encounters about this in China too.

Generator and alternator are the same, converting mechanical to electrical energy. The term alternator is mostly used for AC (alternating current) systems, while generator is the common term for both, AC and DC current systems. The stator is the non rotating part, the rotor the rotating part of a generator.
On typical AC generators the output comes from the non rotating part (fried stator derives from here), while an old fashioned DC generator delivers electricity from the rotor, aka armarture.
The system is the same in cars and bikes, while the difference is that it is driven by a v-belt in a car and mostly directly coupled to the engine on a bike.
As soon as any electrical consumer is powered by the vehicles electrical system it uses electrical energy which is provided by the generator. Being a converter, the generator has to receive this energy from the mechanical side, thus puts additional load to the engine and therefore adds to fuel consumption.
Electrical consumers have very little power compared to the engine. A 200cc China bike engine provides max 10kw, a light bulb for the high beam consumes less than 50W - 0.5% of the engine power. There are other, much bigger, electrical loads on a bike such as heated grips or efi fuel pumps.
The regulators job is only to keep the voltage in a small range, typical 10.8 to 13.2 Volts, as the output voltage of an electrical generator increases linear over speed and the voltage is to be in the range from engine idle to engine max speed.
Vehicle batteries are usually charged by applying a higher voltage than nominal to the battery, hence creating current flowing into the battery and charging it. The value of the current depends on the charging state of the battery. Some small devices batteries (mobile phones, ...) may be charged by driving a constant current into the battery, which allows faster charging.

Hopefully this sheds some light on this topic for you :eekers:

As others posted before, there is widespread ignorance for technical basics all over the middle kingdom.

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

Being a converter, the generator has to receive this energy from the mechanical side, thus puts additional load to the engine and therefore adds to fuel consumption.

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This is what I don't understand. In any electrical generation found on vehicles (generator, stator, alternator), there is no physical/mechanical contact between the windings and the magnets/poles. Because there is no physical contact, how can drag/load be created? The only possible way (in physics) would be for a magnetized force to increase, thereby effectively pulling on the spinning windings (or, in bikes, generator's spinning basket) - but it doesn't - magnetization (if present) is a fixed amount.

What I understand is that the output varies, based on RPM, to a ceiling amount (regulated).

Where the "problems" can occur are when the electrical load exceeds either the generator's output, or the regulator's output, or both. For example, if your bike generates 300 watts, but your load is 400 watts, you have a negative drain. Eventually, your battery goes dead because it's storage has been topping up the system requirements.

In the old days, with oil-filled coils (pre CDI), when the electrical power production was insufficient, the spark would be weakened. There was a linear relationship, and this would be why cars would sometimes drop the idle speed, and/or lose torque, when you turned on the lights (an indication of a poor alternator, regulator, coil, wires, ect). It is my understanding that one of the advantages of CDI was that it helped compensate for these oddities.

But I still can't see how there can possibly be an increase in fuel consumption due to lights. There is no mechanical connection, anywhere, and the generators cannot be "dragged" due to an increased draw. The direction of electrical power production is unidirectional - from the generator outwards.

If it were true (headlights/mileage), presumably, the boom-box cars must get poor mileage with their 1,000 watt amplifiers.

Essentially, the generator's output is fixed, regardless of the demands being required down the line.

Lao Jia Hou, I also don't understand how having a headlight on uses fuel, albeit my understanding (or lack of) is somewhat simpler...

Logically a headlight draws it's power from battery which is constantly trickle charged by the alternator regardless of whether the headlight is on or not, meaning that there is practically no fuel whatsoever used by having a headlight on.

I have heard the 'lights off saves fuel' argument in China and Taiwan from cagers and bikers alike, and it always makes me laugh.
+1 about the 'pulsing' or 'pumping' drivers. I thought they drive like that because they have been taught to drive on a bumper car (i.e. power is either on or off). Are they driving like that to save fuel??!
The issue of driving w/lights remains an area of debate, though. I remember when I first had bike training (admittedly a long time ago), my instructor told me not to put lights on during the day. The belief then was that it can be misconstrued as a courtesy flash to give way to someone exiting a junction. And also that it makes it harder to determine relative speeds and distances. So I would never normally ride with the lights on during the day in the UK. I have started to do so more in China as the previous arguments are kind of secondary to making you as visible as possible. I think hi-viz vest is more important (for fuel economy as well as visibility)

Chinabiker, I'm a little confused by your statement. Is the amount of power consumed by the generator from the engine constant? As in it makes no difference what electrical devices are turned on?

Top Gear did an experiment a few years ago where they drove an SUV around a test track with the AC on, and another with it off to compare fuel savings. I think the experiment didn't work however because of some problems having to do with using the track.

Here is a "How Stuff Works" article claiming that fuel/money can be saved by not using DRLs but I'm not certain about the math or science being used.

/Edit

K, read your response below. Thanks. Still wondering about how much of a drain running headlights would be compared to everything else however. I wonder if it could even be measured when one takes into account the amount of fuel lost through heat generation, drag, and everything else that goes on with a motorcycle that does not actually relate to the power being generated at the rear wheel.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

This is what I don't understand. In any electrical generation found on vehicles (generator, stator, alternator), there is no physical/mechanical contact between the windings and the magnets/poles. Because there is no physical contact, how can drag/load be created? The only possible way (in physics) would be for a magnetized force to increase, thereby effectively pulling on the spinning windings (or, in bikes, generator's spinning basket) - but it doesn't - magnetization (if present) is a fixed amount.

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The magnetic field is the physical connection, though not visible. When an electrical winding is rotating inside a magnetic field, voltage is induced which is available at the winding ends. As soon as a consumer, e.g. bulb, is connected to the winding, the circuit is closed and electric current flows. A winding with current flowing in a magnetic field creates force. This force creates torque which has the opposite direction of the mechanical torque driving the generator. The generator would now slow down and to keep the speed up more mechanical power is needed to keep it running --> more throttle, more gasoline.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

What I understand is that the output varies, based on RPM, to a ceiling amount (regulated).

Where the "problems" can occur are when the electrical load exceeds either the generator's output, or the regulator's output, or both. For example, if your bike generates 300 watts, but your load is 400 watts, you have a negative drain. Eventually, your battery goes dead because it's storage has been topping up the system requirements.

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If the load exceeds the nominal load of the generator, electrical current through the winding exceeds the nominal value as the voltage is relatively constant. If you overload a winding, it will sooner or later thermally fail.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

But I still can't see how there can possibly be an increase in fuel consumption due to lights. There is no mechanical connection, anywhere, and the generators cannot be "dragged" due to an increased draw. The direction of electrical power production is unidirectional - from the generator outwards.

If it were true (headlights/mileage), presumably, the boom-box cars must get poor mileage with their 1,000 watt amplifiers.

Essentially, the generator's output is fixed, regardless of the demands being required down the line.

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Take an old fashioned DC gen, there is a mechanical as well as a physical connection - the rotor of the generator, where the electrical output connects to and where the engine drives it. AC gens would not have a mechanical but a physical connection, the magnetic field between stator and rotor. As said before, the influence on fuel consumption is marginal for one individual.

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Originally Posted by Nuhaus

Chinabiker, I'm a little confused by your statement. Is the amount of power consumed by the generator from the engine constant? As in it makes no difference what electrical devices are turned on?

Top Gear did an experiment a few years ago where they drove an SUV around a test track with the AC on, and another with it off to compare fuel savings. I think the experiment didn't work however because of some problems having to do with using the track.

Here is a "How Stuff Works" article claiming that fuel/money can be saved by not using DRLs but I'm not certain about the math or science being used.

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The amount of mechanical power used by the generator depends on the amount of electrical power the generator has to provide to light bulbs, grip heaters, fuel pumps, ... The output voltage is (roughly) constant at usually 12 Volts, thanks to the regulator. Output power depends on the load. If you take 60W electrically out of the generator (bulb, grip heater, ..), someone must put the 60W into the generator - what else if not the engine. An extra 60W load on the engine results in higher fuel consumption. If your engine would be rated at 6000W (approx. 8.5hp) the 60W bulb would consume 1% of it's power and therefore it would consume fuel. The more electrical power taken out of the gen, the more mechanical power - and fuel - it will consume.
I repeat - this amount can be neglected for one individual.

P.S. As every machine, the generator has losses (bearing friction, electrical losses). A generator like the ones in cars and bikes are not really efficient - around 15-20% losses. This means that the 60W electrical power taken out, would actually require around 70W to be put in.

Thanks Chinabiker - your explanations help.

Perhaps my misunderstanding was that I assumed electrical power was constantly being produced by the generator.

For example, when you start the vehicle, the generator is producing (let's say, for example) 100 Watts at idle RPM (e.g., 1,000 rpm). This electrical power is routed to whatever devices need it (e.g,. primary ignition, fuel pump, electronic gauges, sensors, etc.). Often, however, there is insufficient electrical generation, at idle, to also top up the battery, so there is often little battery charging happening. Everything that is being produced at idle speed is being consumed by the basic (mandatory) electrical devices.

As you increase RPM, the generator spins faster, and this increases electrical power generation. As an example, perhaps at 3,000 RPM, the generator is now producing its maximum capability (e.g., 300 Watts). But perhaps you do not have any optional, electrical accessories turned on (e.g., lights, heated grips, etc), so the extra power generation is routed to battery charging. If your battery is fully charged, the system dumps the excess electricity to ground.

If your generator is producing its maximum output (e.g., 300 Watts) at 3,000 RPM, and you start turning on accessories (lights, heated grips, etc), the generator will "fund" the requirements up to the maximum of 300 Watts. If you turn on enough accessories (e.g., 400 Watts) to go over the generator's capacity, the extra requirements of 100 Watts is "funded" from the battery. Eventually, you run down the battery.

Chinabiker, you explain that power production is not done until there is a load - for example, you turn on the lights, effectively closing a circuit thereby creating a drag on the generator due to an increase in the magnetic field through which the windings travel, albeit the "drag" would be infinitesimally small. That would be possible, and makes sense.

I thought, however, that modern electrical systems (i.e., post 1960s) were designed so that the generators were always producing the maximum output, dependent upon RPM, and dumping excess production (i.e., sending it to ground). Maybe I'm wrong. Again.

It would be interesting to have someone test this in the real world.

I recall Mythbusters tested the A/C versus open windows, and found that they were about equal. The extra drag created by open windows reduced mileage by about the same amount as running the A/C with the windows closed.

One myth that I was "corrected" about was the lugging of an engine ...

I had a driver in China who drove a standard transmission vehicle. I cringed each time he shifted to a higher gear at (what I considered) to be way too low an RPM. We'd be in 5th gear before 30 km/h. After finally getting the nerve to say something, the driver responded with "it saves gas" and "its easier on the engine & transmission". That made no sense to me.

A couple of years later, I had the chance to meet the fellow who had designed & developed two of the world's most revolutionary engines. I related the story of my Chinese driver and, MUCH to my surprise, this genuine expert confirmed what the Chinese driver was doing - yes, lugging an engine is more fuel efficient ... and yes, it is easier on the components, if done correctly.

I've since kept my mouth shut. :mwink:

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

This is what I don't understand. In any electrical generation found on vehicles (generator, stator, alternator), there is no physical/mechanical contact between the windings and the magnets/poles. Because there is no physical contact, how can drag/load be created? The only possible way (in physics) would be for a magnetized force to increase, thereby effectively pulling on the spinning windings (or, in bikes, generator's spinning basket) - but it doesn't - magnetization (if present) is a fixed amount.

What I understand is that the output varies, based on RPM, to a ceiling amount (regulated).

Where the "problems" can occur are when the electrical load exceeds either the generator's output, or the regulator's output, or both. For example, if your bike generates 300 watts, but your load is 400 watts, you have a negative drain. Eventually, your battery goes dead because it's storage has been topping up the system requirements.

In the old days, with oil-filled coils (pre CDI), when the electrical power production was insufficient, the spark would be weakened. There was a linear relationship, and this would be why cars would sometimes drop the idle speed, and/or lose torque, when you turned on the lights (an indication of a poor alternator, regulator, coil, wires, ect). It is my understanding that one of the advantages of CDI was that it helped compensate for these oddities.

But I still can't see how there can possibly be an increase in fuel consumption due to lights. There is no mechanical connection, anywhere, and the generators cannot be "dragged" due to an increased draw. The direction of electrical power production is unidirectional - from the generator outwards.

If it were true (headlights/mileage), presumably, the boom-box cars must get poor mileage with their 1,000 watt amplifiers.

Essentially, the generator's output is fixed, regardless of the demands being required down the line.

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You have been here long enough to know you need to stop using logic in a logic free zone before your hurt yourself.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

Thanks Chinabiker - your explanations help.

Perhaps my misunderstanding was that I assumed electrical power was constantly being produced by the generator.

For example, when you start the vehicle, the generator is producing (let's say, for example) 100 Watts at idle RPM (e.g., 1,000 rpm). This electrical power is routed to whatever devices need it (e.g,. primary ignition, fuel pump, electronic gauges, sensors, etc.). Often, however, there is insufficient electrical generation, at idle, to also top up the battery, so there is often little battery charging happening. Everything that is being produced at idle speed is being consumed by the basic (mandatory) electrical devices.

As you increase RPM, the generator spins faster, and this increases electrical power generation. As an example, perhaps at 3,000 RPM, the generator is now producing its maximum capability (e.g., 300 Watts). But perhaps you do not have any optional, electrical accessories turned on (e.g., lights, heated grips, etc), so the extra power generation is routed to battery charging. If your battery is fully charged, the system dumps the excess electricity to ground.

If your generator is producing its maximum output (e.g., 300 Watts) at 3,000 RPM, and you start turning on accessories (lights, heated grips, etc), the generator will "fund" the requirements up to the maximum of 300 Watts. If you turn on enough accessories (e.g., 400 Watts) to go over the generator's capacity, the extra requirements of 100 Watts is "funded" from the battery. Eventually, you run down the battery.

Chinabiker, you explain that power production is not done until there is a load - for example, you turn on the lights, effectively closing a circuit thereby creating a drag on the generator due to an increase in the magnetic field through which the windings travel, albeit the "drag" would be infinitesimally small. That would be possible, and makes sense.

I thought, however, that modern electrical systems (i.e., post 1960s) were designed so that the generators were always producing the maximum output, dependent upon RPM, and dumping excess production (i.e., sending it to ground). Maybe I'm wrong. Again.

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I think you're mixing up power and voltage.
Voltage, measured in Volt [V], is available at the output terminals of the generator. This voltage is proportional to speed times magnetic field.
As soon as you connect a load (resistance, measured in ohm [Ohm]), current (measured in amps), which is equal to voltage divided by resistance begins to flow. The electrical power, determined by the voltage applied and the current flowing through the load, equals voltage times current and is measured in watts [W]. So far the very basics.

One would prefer a constant voltage of course, but as we see above the voltage is depending on speed, which in a vehicle has a real wide range from 1000rpm at idle and not seldom to way above 10000rpm at maximum. The voltage we want to have in most vehicles is 12 Volt and we want to have this constant (or in a small band) from idle to maximum, so we need a regulator. Speed cannot be controlled by the regulator, but as said above there is another component voltage is depending on, the magnetic field and this is what the regulator controls - nothing will be dumped here btw.
So far the principle of electric power generation in a combustion engine powered vehicle.

Needless to say that an output of electrical power from the generator requires mechanical power to be put into the generator, which comes from the engine. More engine power means more fuel.
Anyway, the extra amount of fuel for a headlight bulb can be neglected.

Sorry to add mor to your cofusion :eekers:

Regardless to whether the light are on or not the kilowatts are being generated to power them its a constant.
For example turning your light off at the home will not reduce the generation at the power plant. There is always wasted energy, it is not a smart system. However if everyone turns their light off then the need for power decreases and the system ramps down generation, but it always is generated regardless to whether it is used or not.


If the lights are on they have to be powered and the settings reflect that existing load mostly at idle. If you see the light dimming you can see them brighten when you increase the rpm. The generation is constant and a function of the ratings of the generating source that is going to be reached at a certain rpm and then constantly offered after that, if you use it or not. If you do not it simply is wasted, just like the power plant it is not smart.

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Originally Posted by MJH

Regardless to whether the light are on or not the kilowatts are being generated to power them its a constant.
For example turning your light off at the home will not reduce the generation at the power plant. There is always wasted energy, it is not a smart system. However if everyone turns their light off then the need for power decreases and the system ramps down generation, but it always is generated regardless to whether it is used or not.


If the lights are on they have to be powered and the settings reflect that existing load mostly at idle. If you see the light dimming you can see them brighten when you increase the rpm. The generation is constant and a function of the ratings of the generating source that is going to be reached at a certain rpm and then constantly offered after that, if you use it or not. If you do not it simply is wasted, just like the power plant it is not smart.

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Thanks - that is also how I understand it.

For example, if your "generator" is rated at 300 Watts @ 3,000 RPM, the generator is going to produce it (production), regardless of whether you use it (consumption). The electricity is there.

Imagine the following:

1) a bike's most basic, mandatory, consumption requirement is 80 Watts, for example, to power the primary ignition system (spark), a fuel pump, gauges and sensors;

2) you are zipping along at 3,000 RPM;

3) the "generation system" (production) makes 300 Watts available, but you are only using 80 Watts;

4) You turn on your headlights, which require an additional 50 Watts. So you are now consuming 130 Watts (80 + 50), but the production is still 300.

5) The difference between what is available (300 Watts) and what is consumed (80, without headlights; or 130, with headlights) is directed towards battery charging. In this example, that difference would be 220 Watts, or 170 Watts, respectively.

6) If your battery is fully charged (storage), those 220 or 170 Watts are either sent to ground (dumped, wasted, etc.), or just not drawn out of the production system. This would depend on the engineered design of the electrical system.

Yes, this is like a power plant's production. A power plant produces, for example, a constant 1 million Kilowatts (yes, I know power plants can increase or decrease production, but they usually remain relatively constant). The power is sent out into the Grid, which includes storage facilities. During times of low consumption (e.g., middle of night), the power goes into the grid and tops up the storage facilities. Once the storage is full, the power that is still being produced is sent to ground (or, better, sold to other Grids). During times of high consumption (e.g., dinner time on a hot day, when stoves and A/C are being used), perhaps all of production is being used and a little bit of storage.

Back to the initial question of headlights/fuel consumption. The needed electrical power to illuminate the headlights is already being produced. Consumption within the system's electrical limits, should have no effect on any mechanical drag. Even if consumption exceeds the limits (e.g., > 300 Watts), that amount will come from storage (the battery).

Following this all through, one would assume, therefore, that riding with a discharged battery increases fuel consumption. I am pretty sure that isn't true.

@ZMC888 - "cold drinks are bad for your health" explains warm beer in China. I love this one, because while the server is handing over a warm beer (with the explanation), the server is also offering you a cigarette!

@ TexasAggie - I am still a newbie in terms of learning logic "with Chinese characteristics", but trying hard to "fit in." For example, when I am walking across a road, I no longer make eye contact with the bus driver. This miraculously makes me immune from disaster. It is even better if I purposefully turn my head and look in the other direction.

@ Lobotomous - In Canada, DRLs are the law, yet the fuel consumption figures are the same as the USA (where there is no DRL law). In the USA, the NHTSA has conducted studies that demonstrate DRLs are safer ... but people feel it impinges on freedoms (like helmet laws).

The stator creates a constant source of alternating current, that is converted and buffered by the regulator -rectifier to a constant Vdc current of 14.4, that is the constant applied to the battery at all times. That is what also powers the lights etc. What comes off the generator is variable as it designed based on the rpm it is rotating at, it has to generate more then enough AC to be converted to 14.4 Vdc constantly at all rpms.


So the source is a constant and the regulator rectifier meters the current, it maintains it at a constant 14.4vdc.


Some older small bikes had a 6 volt system, these mostly have a 12 volt system. The amount of AC current coming off the stator would fry the battery and burn all the light out if it was not buffered. The electrical systems are 12 to 15 Vdc.


The variance is discharged same as based load energy if not used it gets discharged, in the power plants they have beyond base load that comes on in peak demand usually NG powered, to the best of my knowledge I do not believe that any power grid stores electricity, the required banks of batteries would not be economical or cost effective. There are batteries on the grid but they are not part of the grid they are consumers on the grid, in the event the grid goes down as in battery back ups. They protect critical systems and are typically configured with secondary generators and are not part of supply grid they are private or secondary on the grid.


Most people have trouble with that concept, that the substation are discharging excess generation, its normal operation.

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Originally Posted by MJH

Regardless to whether the light are on or not the kilowatts are being generated to power them its a constant.
For example turning your light off at the home will not reduce the generation at the power plant. There is always wasted energy, it is not a smart system. However if everyone turns their light off then the need for power decreases and the system ramps down generation, but it always is generated regardless to whether it is used or not.


If the lights are on they have to be powered and the settings reflect that existing load mostly at idle. If you see the light dimming you can see them brighten when you increase the rpm. The generation is constant and a function of the ratings of the generating source that is going to be reached at a certain rpm and then constantly offered after that, if you use it or not. If you do not it simply is wasted, just like the power plant it is not smart.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJH

The stator creates a constant source of alternating current, that is converted and buffered by the regulator -rectifier to a constant Vdc current of 14.4, that is the constant applied to the battery at all times. That is what also powers the lights etc. What comes off the generator is variable as it designed based on the rpm it is rotating at, it has to generate more then enough AC to be converted to 14.4 Vdc constantly at all rpms.


So the source is a constant and the regulator rectifier meters the current, it maintains it at a constant 14.4vdc.


Some older small bikes had a 6 volt system, these mostly have a 12 volt system. The amount of AC current coming off the stator would fry the battery and burn all the light out if it was not buffered. The electrical systems are 12 to 15 Vdc.


The variance is discharged same as based load energy if not used it gets discharged, in the power plants they have beyond base load that comes on in peak demand usually NG powered, to the best of my knowledge I do not believe that any power grid stores electricity, the required banks of batteries would not be economical or cost effective. There are batteries on the grid but they are not part of the grid they are consumers on the grid, in the event the grid goes down as in battery back ups. They protect critical systems and are typically configured with secondary generators and are not part of supply grid they are private or secondary on the grid.


Most people have trouble with that concept, that the substation are discharging excess generation, its normal operation.

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Wow. I never read that much nonsense :bs:

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

Wow. I never read that much nonsense :bs:

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Hahaha - aren't forums wonderful? :lol8: :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

Wow. I never read that much nonsense :bs:

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

Hahaha - aren't forums wonderful? :lol8: :thumbsup:

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Indeed forums are wonderful but shouldn't they be helpful too :naughty:

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

Wow. I never read that much nonsense :bs:

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Not really but it certainly would never get published by the IEEE .

I did not think anything I posted was that off?

If anyone is interested here are some relative links.
Motorcycle Charging Systems

Base load power systems

I thought comparing a permanent magnetic generator to base load power was a good analogy...maybe not?

MJH, it's OK Chinabiker has been on a wind-up. What yoiu wrote is exactly correct.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

MJH, it's OK Chinabiker has been on a wind-up. What yoiu wrote is exactly correct.

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Sorry folks, it's not correct, it is pure nonsense.

OK, let's talk about headlights and fuel conspumtion.

I'm ready.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rfly_Knife.gif

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Originally Posted by Zorge

I'm ready.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rfly_Knife.gif

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Hahaha! But don't bring a knife to a gun fight ...

http://i50.tinypic.com/23rs95z.jpg

Let's talk about oil instead. :naughty:

Regardless of which side is correct, I do see merit in both arguments. The guru I talked to (35 year engine mechanic) claims the "load" does not result in a significant increase in fuel consumption. On a single cylinder 250cc bike, you're talking about a teaspoon of fuel in 1000 miles. Blipping your throttle at a stop light a few times would waste more than continuos headlight use.

Cheers!
ChinaV

Well.. actually First law of physics.."Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be transferred from one form to the other, the lowest being heat"'
Thus you ride with your headlight on you are burning energy, where does it come from? Yep, the fuel tank. The guy is correct.. however.. It uses half of sod all on a stormy night energy, there you go..Amount of energy used by the generator.. The "generator" works harder when it is putting juice into the battery. When the zener diode which, allows electrical flow into the battery until a certain voltage then allows the voltage from the battery to flow back. So when the voltage output of the zener diode and the battery are equal there is no POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE in energy of the two systems. The potential difference is called Voltage by the way. SOOOOOOOOOOOO with no current flow because of the Potential energy difference there is no net transfer of energy. So.. turn on the light and there is an increase in consumption of energy and blah blah blah blah blah..
still stuff all on a stormy night though...

however.. spend the extra money on the thimbleful of gas every week. It may just save your life.. and by the way. .no law against driving with your lights on during the daytime in this country.

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Originally Posted by Jonsims

.. and by the way. .no law against driving with your lights on during the daytime in this country.

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Yeah, there is, somewhere hidden in the Traffic Code. Saw it once. It translates a bit strange, something like "lights must be turned on only between dusk & dawn", or something like that. In recent days, in Beijing, motorcycles are getting a shakedown ... we're experiencing tickets for anything and everything. It has reached the point of total absurdity - ever heard of a mouth swab being taken for foreign-plated (i.e., non Beijing plates) bike riders coming into the city? - some riders are reporting that, but who knows. Goes along with the no window handles, no pigeons, no toys, no pencil sharpeners, no balloons ... and a need to have any taxi driver read a cautionary script to you if you are going into the red zone.

Still can't wrap my brain around how there can be any additional drag on the generator - it is spinning whether the lights or on, or not.

But perhaps we should move to ChinaV's suggestion ... next question:

Do I consume more fuel if I use a heavier grade of oil?

Hahahaha ... JUST JOKING!!!!!!!! Do NOT take the bait!

At idle a bike can offer 17 vAC as the engine increases rpm you can get up into 45-60vAC, at the battery it is getting about a consistent 14.5vDC.


So if your lights are on the reading at the battery could tell you slightly more? If you shut off the light you will see 14.5? The difference is the draw of the light? The battery is 12volts fully charged and the current going to it is 14.5 then what is the 2.5 variance is that the draw of the lights?


Let consider that we have a 60watt bulb.
.06 kilowatts for a 60 watt bulb


Now lets convert the kilowatts to voltage.
The voltage V in volts (V) is equal to 1000 times the power P in kilowatts (kW), divided by the current I in amps (A):


V =1000 x .06/5


V=12


The twelve volt battery is getting 14.5 volts about and the lights take 12 volts?


The battery looses some juice at starting, the trickle 2.5 offers that back to recharge it. The lights are also a constant draw at 12 volts while on, but the generation from the stator that is beyond 14.5 the constant voltage off the regulator rectifier.


The output of the stator is linear it goes up way beyond the the 14.5 sent to the battery, the generation changes with rpm it is all linear.


The 14.5 is always a drop down off the stator output, if you see really high values at connections to the battery from the regulator, it could be a bad ground at it letting too much electricity through.

same thing I posted before except I added real values.