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OK, the improved website for Asiawing is up and running. It is in both Chinese and English. There is detail on both their 450 dirt bike and the 500 street-fighter, and they are introducing a 250 enduro, but no details on that one, yet.
Chinese:
www.asiawing.com
English:
http://asiawing.com/english/index.asp
Improved site for sure, not perfect, but better than 90% of the Chinese motorcycle websites.
Really interested in the spark 500. But I will ask them if they are thinking about making a motard version of the 450 as I prefer this engine. I really hope these bikes are well built and I would love to be riding around Shandong province on a 30KW-32KW bike which is legally registered and built locally (it may be a problem getting the bike registered for a reasonable price, but I expect the factory have connections :deal:). I know the bikes are reasonably priced, and if they are any good, I'll be very happy. :thumbsup:
It says engine has a ceramic coated cylinder bore and BOSCH fuel injection, all based on Cagiva technology. :thumbsup:
Yes, they seem impressive, so hopefully will make a big entrance. The Chinese site does show the 450 in enduro guise (I think), and the Spark in black, so it seems like you guys in China get all the good stuff! :eek2:
888, I hope you can get to see their factory. I also hope Carl can get to meet the manager in Indianapolis in a few weeks! :thumbsup: He (Carl) has promised me a new bike from the companies he meets up with, so I will anxiously await the bike!! :riding:
I forgot to add, and you mentioned it, ZCM, but the 450 has more advertised power and more torque than the 500, although I probably should go back and see where the power band of each is, but it seems odd that the 500 doesn't even offer more torque, according to their own stats...
I'm gonna try to get down to the factory when I can.
So when the Chinese New Year celebrations end :chinese: (as the factory is probably all on holiday except the security), the weather is right and I have some free time I'll get down there, the roads between here and the factory are probably the best roads in the province (if you take the scenic route:riding:) so ride report plus factory report in March I think.
I'll kiss some serious ass down there with the bosses, to see if we can all help put them on the map, and us on some of the best c-motos out there.
:lol8::lol8::lol8::lol8:Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
I think Chinaman speak with forked tongue here:
http://asiawing.com/english/info_det...p?id=17&c_id=5
They say this is a "Italian CAGIVA engine":
http://asiawing.com/english/contentf...2211857391.jpg
it looks extremely like an old Yamaha SR500 unit:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...500right-1.jpg
I have to be honest it does have some similarities to the SR500 unit.
When I talked to them (on the phone in English) he said 'Honda engine and cagiva tires' :eek2:,
But BOSCH fuel injection? :eek2:
Confusing :lol8:
I hope it does doesn't run like a 250, but with a choppy poorly timed engine around town! Because the injection and engine don't match.
Surely if it's Cagivna technology it's based on this............
Cagiva River 500 (2006)
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/cagiva...us%20user..jpg
or this....
Cagiva T4 500 E (1991)
http://www.bikez.com/pictures/cagiva...-%20inacio.jpg
But the guy said 'Honda' engine to me! :diggin:
So I just 'spose it's wait until I see the factory then...:riding:
P.S. If the factory doesn't have any torque wrenches, I'll be running out the front door within 5 minutes. Thumper+untorqued bolts=recipe for disaster! :lol8:
Do you mean that these Chinese companies aren't producing original designs!!!??? :eekers:Quote:
Originally Posted by forchetto
:lol8::icon10::lol8::icon10::lol8::icon10::lol8::l ol8::icon10::lol8::icon10::lol8::icon10:
I first thought the round SOHC cylinder must be Suzuki, such as the old aircooled DR models. The once very popular DR350 came close. The engine looked a bit more similar, but still different. Then I checked stuff like Honda's XL/XR engines, nothing fitted. Neither did Yamaha's XT/TT models.Quote:
Originally Posted by forchetto
The closest I found is the Cagiva W16 Engine. Just check out the position of the oil window, the bolts of the cylinder, the position of the oilfilter cap to the clutch cover. The channel below the oilfilter cap into the engine. Fits perfectly!!! The photo doesn't show a kick starter (nor the shaft), maybe because it has an electric starter.
The only thing I am surprised about: The Cagiva engine is a 600 cc engine. But that's also fine, because it means that the original 600 cc engine should fit. Maybe yuu only have to change the cylinder, piston and stuff, then you have a nice 600 cc bike.
I know why Asiawing claims it would be a Honda engine: Honda engines are much more reliable, Cagiva dosn't have the best reputation, at least at the time when the W12 was build, in the mid '90s.
I also guess that the license (if they have) to copy the Cagiva engine is much cheaper than a license from Honda.
Peter
it is not the yamaha Engine, thow tey are extremely... , look at the position of the oil filter. plus, Yamaha never made an electric start version of the SR500 (I know because I like this bike).
they say Honda licence because they are marketing the 450 cc version wich is an modified copy of the CRF450.
Let's not get confused: The LD450 (which they now name LX450. Or do they call the Motocross Version LX and the Enduro Version LD? I dunno') is a copy of the Honda CRF450. That's for sure. I have seen both standing next to each other (Asiawings LD450 and the Honda CRF450). And I also rode the Asiawing... it's crap. At least last year in May, maybe better now.Quote:
Originally Posted by izi rider
But we discussed the the engine of the Spark, were this is coming from, which engine they copy here. I still insist on the Cagiva Engine W16, it pretty obvious.
It is NOT a copy SR500 engine!!! That's even more obvious. And as ZMC888 wrote "'Honda engine and cagiva tires" is obviously also a mistake by the guy at Asiawings factory he talked to.This guy just swapped engine with tires or Cagiva with Honda. I trust more what's written on their website That it's an Cagiva Engine.
But I also don't belive that this an official licensed engine. The way the copy the Honda CRF (which they don't have a license from Honda for, for sure, the CRF is too new) almost 1:1, it's quite clear that they don't give a :terd about such a license.
Personally I think the Spark is a modern Yamaha licensed quad engine (but bought through the back door), but with a Cagiva copied everything else. I also think this will not be the first Chinese 400cc+ pure street bike to be available for general sale, because Asiawing do not see the market potential and another manufacturer such as Zongshen will beat them to it. This is because most Chinese manufacturers do not see the value of a 500cc commuter bike for a reasonable price. I've been trying to get Asiawing to nail down an idea of ANY bike 450cc plus that could be registered in China, and have failed. All know is the LX450 which compares poorly with the Japanese competition is available for sale, export only. :bs:
I thought you mentioned before that the 400cc dual sport can be registered in China? I sent an email to Asiawing and they quoted me 17,800 RMB for the XY400Y-2 and they claim that bike can be registered.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
One interesting point, brought up during a factory visit last year (not Asiawing), was the fact that none of the Chinese manufacturers have experience with motorcycles that exceed 120 kph (JH600 excluded). If you want to slap parts together and make pit bikes, that's one thing, but over 100 kph and you need much better components than the current supply chain can deliver. As much as I would like to see bigger bikes, it scares me that they're building them with the same mentality as the small bikes.
Cheers!
ChinaV
To be fair Asiawing claimed the LX450 motard could be registered. But then they claimed that that Spark was available for sale and had EFI, which was not true. They seem confused between what they want to do, and can actually do. These inconsistencies made me not believe them. I've never seen any registered Asiawings in Shandong, and this is where they are made!
Certainly they do need better components in the Chinese parts bin, but only some companies need to use it as they are assemblers. Other companies such as Zongshen, Jialing, Qingqi etc are big enough to make their own stuff or to demand better from their suppliers. A 500cc Chinese bike has some issues with component quality, but remember that they are probably only going to be playing with 24-32KW single engines, also that they already produce millions of quad bikes with these engines and plenty of 250cc bikes, so it is a reasonable jump.
I just can't understand why Japanese companies don't make a reasonable 400-500cc single through their joint ventures and lead the way? No imagination? Not allowed? Afraid of having technology stolen?
In europe there is some demand for 400-500 cc motorcycles but no one comes with an offer. Why?
Because of price issues.
One 600 cc starts at 6.500 Euro and has 2-4 cil and more than 70 HP. An 400-500 cc with 50 HP would be @ 5.500 and many would say that the difference is too small. If they were to use a configuraton like the Spark price would probably drop to 4.500 but... with lots of cons.
look at Yamaha MT-03 wich is a nice bike but does not sell as well as the Fazer or Hornet.
I think realistically the Chinese could sell 400-500cc bikes for about $3000-3,500 US. (2,000-2,400 Euro). This would be cheaper than many of the Japanese branded 250cc bikes currently available. Someone who has a Ducati isn't going to want a YBR250 or a Ninja 250 for a 2nd bike. But they may want a cheap simple 500cc single that the can commute on, and learn wheelies, endos and knee down stuff on and leand to friends and relatives and work on themselves. Not to mention the riding school potential. Something that was a 500cc single but looked like a Suzuki Bandit would sell very well for that price IMO.
http://www.suzukicycles.org/photos/s...t_400V_500.jpg
Something that looked like this early 90's 400cc Bandit, but with single front disk and a 500cc single oil-cooled engine for $3000-3,500?.
I absolutely agree with ZMC888. A bike like the 400cc Bandit would sell in Europe. At that time the Bandits (400, 600 and 1200 cc as far as I remember) sold very well, the 400 was very popular, not only for commuters. It was, what we call in Germany a "bread-and-butter-bike". Good for everyday, very popular amongst women, couriers, beginners, sometime as second bike etc. At that time the engine was already a bit outdated, but nobody really cared. The people who bought this bike wanted something simple, reliable, not the latest high-tech-bike. And that's the point why Aisawing may fail if they bring the Spark to Europe: It doesn't have the reputation (yet) as a reliable bike, riders would be very sceptical. The non-existent dealer network will also be a problem to the potential client group (who's not looking for something rare, seldom, exclusive).
Remember Hyosung? The also had (actually have) these bread-and-butter-bikes, but don't sell well, although the price and quality is ok. But only a few dealers.
These are the problems that Chinese producers will face, once they have their quality issues fixed... So they have a very long way to go, if they want to be successful in western markets. The question is: Do they want this? Maybe not, as they are still makin' money with their 125's and 250s here in China. As long as the Chinese consumer who uses motorbikes only until they can afford cars (a situation similar to the past WWII in Germany), as long as 125 or 250 brings you from point A to point B Unless there's a larger trend in China to use motorbikes as a hobby there won't be any real market in China. In Germany (don't know about other European markets post WWII) motorbikes became first a symbol of individualisation and being a rebel not being conform with the society (with upcoming of Rockers in the 60's and 70's, FlowerPower, Easy Rider). But individualisation and the like is something that will be suppressed in China ( for 'harmonious society')
Just today I spoke to a Chinese well informed motorbike guy and asked him what's his opinion why (larger) bikes are not 'favoured' by the gov of the Paranoid Republic of Cheat: He said it's because they're afraid the gangsters can't be caught if they ride bigger, faster bikes (In Shenzhen, he said, it's definetly the case, as they had problems with gangsters on bikes recently and prohibited even small bikes just more recently). Can be true, at least that's one of the reasons. As long as the gov doesn't support the production of bigger bikes, not much will happen here. I also asked him about Jianling, as they would have the money, the facilties. He said that Jialing is an ammunition producer, bikes make only a very small fraction of their business. They are simply not interested in developing more, the JH600 was a test and failed.
We also discussed Asiawing. He said they will not continue to develop the LD/LX450, too many problems. Particular the scrappy forks (I tried it, they are really BS) would be too expensive to improve.
250 cc is good. 500cc is great. I remember my early days (more than 10 years ago) when I was riding CZ/JAWA and IZH motorcycles with 15-27 HP. My first bike was a MZ125-3 with 6 HP. I was fun and I realy miss those days.
I would like to see bikes with a more elaborate design. Look at a Kawasaki 250 R and them look at QM250 2D. When you are 18 yrs old you will make any effort possible to get the first.
Look at Kawasaki ER6N or Yamaha MT 03. Both are @6500 Euro. Then look at the Spark and consider a selling price of 4000 E. (see link) The difference is justifiable and I would go for one but if they don't look for dealers across Europe I will not put my money.
They have to find dealers and back them up with exclusivity and good after sales policy. I tried to import bikes but the warranty promised was 6-12 months from the time I received the bikes not from the registration. What if I am going to sell the bikes after 1 year? what if the owner is moveing to another country? Is the bulgarian importer going to honour the waranty? He is not... so I abandoned the ideea.