Survey on Electric Motorcycles

Fellow MCMers,

An announcement: I am teaming up with a small team of expat motorcycle/electric vehicle enthusiasts here in Beijing to seriously investigate the feasibility of designing and manufacturing a line of proper electric motorcycles here in China.

As part of the requisite R&D process in the run-up to this, we’d like to find out more about riding habits of various demographic groups here in China including the expat motorcycling community. Given that MCM is itself, a tightly knit community of expat motorcyclists in China, I felt it’d be an appropriate venue to conduct such a survey (below), to find out more about the viability of this idea.

I would be most grateful if you had 5 minutes of time to spare, to share your thoughts and views on the notion of a small, foreign-run designing and manufacturing startup developing and selling electric motorcycles domestically here in China, through the below survey. Just copy the below responses and embolden/underline your response.

Thanks a million for your time, thoughts, suggestions and ideas. :thumbsup:

Feel free to ping me with a PM if you have any questions.

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1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I currently do
I used to, but not at the moment
I have not, but am interested in doing so
No

2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
Yes
No

3. If you have never owned an electric bike/scooter/motorcycle, would you ever consider riding an electric motorcycle?
Yes, definitely
I would think about it
No

4. And if no, why not?
Limited range
Cheap image
Slow performance
Legalities
Cost
Visceral/emotional thrill (sound, vibrations, working a gearbox etc.)
None of the above

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Sport
Naked Street Fighter
Adventure
Scooter

6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Commuting
Leisure

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
50cc
150cc
250cc
400cc
600cc
1000cc+

8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None
Small top box
Large top box
Large top box & small side boxes
Large top box & large side boxes

9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
Under 25km
25 - 50km
50 - 75km
75 - 100km
100 - 150km
Over 150km

10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?
Under RMB10K
RMB 10 - 30K
RMB 30 - 50K
RMB 50 - 70K
RMB 70 - 100K
Over RMB100K

11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Yes, able and willing
Yes, able but not willing
No

12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I currently do

2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
No

3. If you have never owned an electric bike/scooter/motorcycle, would you ever consider riding an electric motorcycle?
I would think about it depending on power or range.

4. And if no, why not?
50-100 kw of power and 200-400km range before interested in buying, 15KW and 100 km of range before trying.

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Sport or Naked Street Fighter or dirt bike

6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Leisure

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
250cc-1000cc+ Ideally 400cc+

8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None

9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
Over 150km to even consider owning 100 kilometers to test

10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?
Depends entirely on performance, range suspension and brake quality etc. Also it does need a plate and motorcycle license if over a certain wattage (200w?) and if it's under 200w forget it! :rolleyes1:

11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Yes, able and willing

12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?
I would be happy to try any electric motorcycle with over 15KW of power and over 100km of range if the tires, brakes and suspension were of a good quality and be some 'loaned' kind of 'beta' tester for free and give regular feedback. Not interested in buying anything electric at this stage unless proven to be an excellent vehicle or 600cc type power and a fairly reasonable price. This is because I'm perfectly happy with my internal combustion bike, but would like to see any green commerce or foreign business succeed.

Understand me clearly. I prefer bicycles for all journeys under 20 kilometers. I would never be interested in any powered vehicle that had a range less than this. As a cyclist I can probably put out max 300W-400W, I would never be interested in a vehicle than put out less than this. My motorcycle can put out at little over 50KW, I would need 30KW of power for me to be interested in any electric road bike to buy as a product. However, if it's a dirt bike then a lightweight bike that put out 10KW and had a 50km range would be acceptable.

If you think that an electric motorcycle is a clever way to subvert the law and be legal everywhere without a plate especially inside the 4th ring road in Beijing or central Shanghai, sadly you'll be disappointed as once you get over 5KW you'll be in motorcycle territory, registration, insurance and licensing. Probably nearly everywhere in the world, not just in China.

Hope this helps.

Could ask if the Zero line was available at current US prices would you be interested in purchasing one.
That would make some assumptions in quality, however support is an issue, one of the largest problems in China is that of support. Then is that support, even if top notch, another assumption, enduring? Will the bikes be funded well and can it make it or will you end up with a product that eventually is unsupported.

These bikes are novel for sure however the price is not, 17k is not a small price to pay for what is limited use.


My guess is that the people at Zero and others have some patented technology and have invested quite a bit of R&D and may not have any interests in manufacturing outside the USA? But could they be convinced to set up in China or another country?


I think the market in china is as limited for electric motorcycles as it is for combustion powered ones. Maybe even more so? However if the Zero line was offered in select markets in China and for half the retail prices in the USA would anyone buy one? Then is it even economically feasible to make that happen.

They are limited and expensive, Brammo I believe are better or at least higher performance, you could repeat that same above scenario with their offering. What price would draw you in, you would really limit you customer base without top notch support with a relatively new technology.
I see these having limited support by region and thats allot to ask for so much of an investment.


If you were to entice some investors as in seek out venture capitalist, you would need to have something in the form of a letter of intent, in that a possible interest of an actual manufacturer or your own working models.


These start up will not likely take on China, they know that they cannot defend their rights their, they do not have the capital of say Ford or GM to do battle. It is not impossible to defend your product in China but can be expensive if you are not huge and have power it may be simply impossible. You may get a good share at first but eventually it will appear as others and eventually take it all back. In the end you still can endure but with a smaller share. The way they win is in superior servicing and quality control, the systems the products are brought to the market in.


I would say that Zero and Brammo could manufacture in China and if they had a great partner sell many.
I think that the Chinese would embrace what is cleaner and if respected pay a good price, but simply not what they sell for in the USA and for very limited numbers. The numbers would maybe be more then in the USA but not likely at such very high prices, do to the limited functionality, if you think you can out do these companies then go for it….they may be limited by costs here.

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I do

2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
Yes

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Naked Street Fighter (for Leisure)
Scooter (for Urban Commuting in China)

6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Commuting

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
150cc (commuting)
600cc (leisure)

8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None (leisure)
Large top box or box under the seat(commuting)

9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
50 - 75km (commuting)
Over 150km (leisure)

10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?

Under RMB10K (commuting: low cost, high practicality, good design)


11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Willing but not able

12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?
I wouldn't consider buying an electric motorcycle for leisure purposes simply because I know that such a machine, with minimum "fun" requirements, cannot be built. Brammo, Zero, Mission Motorcycles are building interesting machines that DO NOT satisfy my basic mileage requirements for leisure purposes (touring). And the prices, my god. However, I would consider, for commuting purposes, upgrading to a fun little machine with interesting design and functional features, as an upgrade from my present china-mada e-scooter. And there I would set my budget around 5000 RMB (definitely below 10'000 - otherwise I am happy with the present crappychinascooter). But that's just me!

Thanks all for the responses so far. And thanks also to MJH for the usual well-considered and extremely thorough analysis. :thumbsup:

On Brammo and Zero, and other "high-profile" electric motorcycle companies: they make brilliant products which satisfy the needs and wants of the demographics which they target. They have poured in significant amounts of time and money in making their products what they are today. But they had to start somewhere. There was a time when Zero's motorcycles (the company which began as a motorcycle company; Brammo started off by making the Ariel Atom for the US; the experience and skills they had developed, and the team they had built for the Atom project meant their first motorcycle - the Enertia - was a fairly refined product) weren't far off electric mountain bikes (as in bicycles). Excellent products as they are today, it's hard to ignore the fact that Zeros and Brammos are still priced for early adopters.

We are not trying to compete in that market segment, which we think, is already fairly saturated - given the still relatively small market for high-performance electric motorcycles. Our model will - and without committing to details for now - require us to develop a product/products for which the mass market will consider 'reasonable' - in all senses of the word. And product/products which represent great value for customers. At the same time, we believe that we have a sustainable model which isn't singularly reliant on China for success (although succeeding in China would help, significantly so!).

Of course, the specifics of this project can and almost certainly will go through iterations. Our objective is to minimise the number of such iterations before finding one which "works" and part of that involves asking the right questions to the market we hope service. And so, we turn to you guys. What do you want us to make? How would you use what we make, if at all? etc. These are all questions to which we, on our side, have assumptive answers. But to create a business delivers products and/or services, we need to cross-reference our assumptions with your responses at multiple levels, on multiple instances to make sure that we are as 'synced-up' with reality as we think we are.

As such, your responses on this survey are extremely important to us. And simply put, the more, the merrier.

And, just a teaser... (my way of saying, THANK YOU! :naughty:)

Attachment 14664

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
I used to, but not at the moment


2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
Yes


3. If you have never owned an electric bike/scooter/motorcycle, would you ever consider riding an electric motorcycle?
n/a

4. And if no, why not?
None of the above

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Naked Street Fighter


6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Commuting

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
250cc


8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
Large top box & small side boxes


9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
75 - 100km


10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?
RMB 10 - 30K


11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Yes, able and willing


12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I currently do

2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
No

3. If you have never owned an electric bike/scooter/motorcycle, would you ever consider riding an electric motorcycle?
Yes, definitely

4. And if no, why not?
Limited range

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Adventure

6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Commuting

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
250cc

8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None

9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
Over 150km

10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?
Under RMB10K
RMB 10 - 30K
RMB 30 - 50K

11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Yes, able and willing

12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?
Batteries are too expensive to make them affordable based on the criteria people want.

Hi Branng,

Your project sounds very good. I assume you have dig into the regulations and the trends for the Chinese market.
As of today, most of those scooter/moped like electric bike seems to actually be illegal according to regulations (at least in Shanghai) due to weight and speed and as a result cannot register and get the electric plate. So far it seems government has been very loose on enforcing those regulations except for a few days a year.

But, as everything in China, you can expect this to change very quickly either on the enforcement side or regulation side and need to make sure your business model (or at least the Chinese part of it) takes this into account. There will be some serious threat to many electrical bike makers but certainly bigger opportunity arising as well.

Just my $0.02 of the day.

Keep us posted on your progress, best of luck!

Guillaume

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I currently do

2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
Yes

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Scooter for city commute
adventure for leisure

6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Commuting
Leisure

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
50cc - 150cc for commute
250cc - 400cc for adventure


8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None
Small top box

9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
75 - 100km for commute
Over 150km for adventure

10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?
Under RMB10K for commute
RMB 10 - 30K for leisure

11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
No

12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I currently do

2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
No

3. If you have never owned an electric bike/scooter/motorcycle, would you ever consider riding an electric motorcycle?
No

4. And if no, why not?
Visceral/emotional thrill (sound, vibrations, working a gearbox etc.)

5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Sport
Naked Street Fighter

6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Leisure

7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
600cc
1000cc+

8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None

9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
100 - 150km

10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?

11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Yes, able

12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?
I do not believe that electric cars and/or bikes are the future (for more then one reason).
Besides, as long as not mated to conventional engines (like in cars), it kills each and every thrill of a motorbike, taking away most, if not all, of the emotional experience which is such big part of a bike in the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 998S

I do not believe that electric cars and/or bikes are the future (for more then one reason).
Besides, as long as not mated to conventional engines (like in cars), it kills each and every thrill of a motorbike, taking away most, if not all, of the emotional experience which is such big part of a bike in the first place.

---

Agree, personally I think small city cars and scooters = electric
Medium motorcycles and cars = hydrogen/electric hybrid
Large cars, motorcycles and trucks = hydrogen

Reason being with hydrogen you can still keep your gears, exhausts etc

You can have gears with and electric drive, the Brammo does.
http://www.brammo.com/empulse/

With out gears you have linear performance, either a high top speed or sudden acceleration, with multiple gearing you can have both and along the line be able to shift in and out. I image it can be set up quite the same, maybe even smoother with electric.

Branng, would you consider exporting your bikes? My guess is that it would be fairly easy to do so in the US considering the EPA (and California's stricter CARB) laws would not apply. I would assume DOT should be fairly straightforward.

While your endeavor sounds, on paper, to be similar to several other Chinese electric motorcycles, I would prefer to do business with non-Chinese people given the wide-open potential issues it seems dealing with those who can run and hide with your money.

1. Do you ride a motorcycle?
Yes, I currently do


2. Do you own/have you owned an electric bike/electric scooter/electric motorcycle?
No


3. If you have never owned an electric bike/scooter/motorcycle, would you ever consider riding an electric motorcycle?
I would think about it


4. And if no, why not?
Limited range
Slow performance


5. What ‘style’ of motorcycle do you prefer?
Naked Street Fighter


6. If you have a bike, what do you mainly use it for?
Commuting


7. What level of performance would you deem “acceptable” to you?
250cc
400cc


8. What amount of storage do you require on a motorcycle?
None


9. If you were to ride an electric motorcycle, what range would you require out of it on a single charge (to cover 95% of your riding scenarios)?
Over 150km


10. As an electric, two-wheeled vehicle, an electric motorcycle technically does not require a motorcycle plate (although one could argue that it requires an electric bicycle plate). As such, the total on-the-road cost of the vehicle is the cost of the vehicle only i.e. no plating costs. Given this, if you were to buy an electric motorcycle which met your performance and practicality requirements, where would you set your budget?
RMB 10 - 30K


11. If something on the electric motorcycle requires repair/replacement, would you be able and/or willing to repair/replace the component as an individual?
Yes, able and willing


12. Any other comments/suggestions/feedback?
I suppose biggest trouble would be the existing limitations in battery power for e-bikes, which makes already for slow e-bicycles, moreover China regulations would put any reasonably powered e-motorcycle in actual gas motorcycles registration range...

Keep us posted if u pull one out!

why is this survey not using the forum's poll feature? Why not use google forms? Gathering results this way will be very difficult for you, more difficult than it should be.

http://www.google.com/google-d-s/createforms.html

I'm not in China right now, though i might come back in the future and im definitely interested in a real electric Chinabike.