Manufacturer Lobbying

Not something new, but another sign that overseas manufacturers see a huge market in China. Let's hope that all the efforts will some day soon lead to success.

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... On Feb. 9, two top-ranking Chinese diplomats—Zhou Wenzhong, the Ambassador of the People's Republic of China to the U.S., and Huang Ping, Consul General of the People's Republic of China —scheduled time during their brief visit to Milwaukee to speak with Company leaders and explore the Harley-Davidson Museum®. They were accompanied by their wives and other members of the Washington D.C. embassy and Chicago consulate diplomatic staff. ...

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Full story

Andy

:bowdown: I hope they listen :bowdown:

I'm not a Harley fanatic, but let's hope that they are leading the way, and all riders can benefit from this.

I know the Germans do that too but not as open as HD does :lol8:

As long as somebody is doing something about making conditions better, it's fine :riding:

Andy

We have high-end bikes such as Harleys and BMW's, which is good, and lots of small capacity bikes, which is good too.

It would be nice to have the opportunity to have something middle sized and middle cost, but also trustworthy, such as this wouldn't it?

In Shandong they'd need to price the bike license/registration/insurance between 1000-1500 RMB to actually persuade any Chinese riders here to realistically think about registering one, if they were available...

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gal...BF500%2004.jpg

CBF 500

Andy,

That is some good news and I hope it goes well. It's clear that HD and BMW are pretty much the only two companies spending any resources trying to develop the Chinese bike market. They must obviously have some research that other people don't. :icon10:

The Japanese don't even try to develop the market and it's no mystery why they don't. Both companies must be in for the long haul though because there's a definite cultural stigma in China against motorcycles in general and we see this any time we try to enter a gaosu gonglu. That will be the hardest problem for them to overcome. Without support from the highest levels of government I fear it may simply result in another face project to encourage investment but not socially develop the market.

I hope it works out! I give mad credit to these guys for even trying!

Any predictions Andy? ZMC?

CC

Predictions?

Well culturally Hong Kong and T_a_i_w_a_n province (:icon10:) have for many years been avid motorcycle riders, so I don't see why this couldn't happen in China too, lots of the younger crew seem to be quite keen! When the guys that are mostly in their 20's or younger now all have cars and are stuck in traffic in the future, I hope that there is a big return to bikes.

The country needs some way for people to be able to get on two wheels of a reasonable size for a reasonable price, also for people from other countries to come here and be able to legally ride to create some growth in the market. There also needs to be a recognition from the govt that bikes are not responsible for much gridlock or pollution. Most short-distance commuter bikers in my area have switched to electric bikes anyway, so there is no need to jump on motorcycles as a problem, as electric bikes are far cheaper and do almost the same thing in a city center for the majority of commuters. So the motorcycle market will end up smaller but more recreational naturally.

There's loads of mid-90's unregistered Honda CB400's around, it would be nice to see more of these kind of bikes around in the future. To me the ideal kind of bike for China is a road bike such as a 250cc or 400cc 4 cylinder bike, not a guy with inadequate training on an R1 missile or someone with only experience of small bikes trying to manhandle a Harley around a rural factory worker riding an electric bike down the wrong side of the road! :lol8:

I think the future of riding in China will be a multi-tiered view...

1. Wealthy fat-cat riders who all have cars, and ride big fat bikes on sunny days in big groups.
2. People that ride big fat bikes but can't afford to register them.
3. People with domestically made moderate sized bikes (150-600cc singles)
4. Kids with unregistered dirt bikes.
5. Commuter guys who wouldn't care if they had an electric bike under them instead.
6. Various farmers.

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Originally Posted by Crazy Carl

The Japanese don't even try to develop the market and it's no mystery why they don't.

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That's unfair, Yamaha have been putting money in recently. Also Honda is a major kudos brand in China, who if they actually tried to, they could have a big impact on the market. It is probably because they have seen it all before...China lurching between legal status and illegal status, you'd need a PHD in political science or sociology to keep up with where you should target your bike sales...Probably the memo from Honda head office says 'waste of time too much of a headache, concentrate on selling them the small stuff'. If Harley, BMW and other are put through this same kind of nonsense, they will go the same way too, and concentrate on other markets.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

That's unfair ... If Harley, BMW and other are put through this same kind of nonsense, they will go the same way too, and concentrate on other markets.

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Concentrate on other markets? What other markets? The world economy is in a slump and these are high price luxury items are the first to drop in sales. Additionally, Baby-boomers are dying out and both BMW and Harley stand to loose the most from this generation leaving the riding community. Neither of them (Harley especially) have a massive appeal to the younger "greener" generations. Neither effectively offer "smart" products like scooters or mopeds or motorcycle engine based utility vehicles. What is Harely going to sell in developing nations that would really make sense? What is BMW going to sell in Etheopia that will be used by the common laborer? You know what the hottest and arguably only growing segment of the moto market is in the US? 50cc scooters. :eek2:

Harley and BMW (marketing savvy as they are with tremendous out-reach operations) are trying to develop niche market segments in China so they can utilize the fact that their products are a) unique and b) not Japanese. In a weird way, operating in China is especially advantageous for them because both companies have a VERY hard time competing with Japanese companies elesewhere on the planet - even in their home markets. And lets not even talk about the cost of manufacturing goods in Europe or America and how that impacts their non-competetitive price points world-wide.

There are very good reasons for a Japanese company to not get politically involved in China. As far as motorcycles go, the market for small bikes in China is absolutely saturated with Chinese companies, some of whom also manufacture for Japanese companies, so why would any of the "Big 4" want to compete with that when the meat of their market share around the world is being threatened now that Chinese bikes are reaching all over the globe? Japanese bikes and technology are already being sold in China under hundreds of different badges so what would they have to offer that justifies the cost difference? The bikes sold in China would have to be produced IN China anyways right? :deal:

The other problem is an unfortunate cultural stigma surrounding Japanese products in China. You don't need to have a PhD in Poli-Sci to figure that one out. There's a market for Kodak cameras in China simply because it's not Japanese and that's the only affordable non-Japanese brand available. It's even more absurd than the motorcycle industry, but point is it happens and most of the world - regardless of what anyone may think - is riding 150 or less engines and this is also where most of the money in the industry comes from. It's this same money which pays for the super bikes we all love to drool over. Out of the one million units (over half of the world's total export) China exported to various parts of the world in 2007, how many you think were above 200cc?

Fundamentally - in my opinion - BMW and Harley NEED a new market segment where their products have some competitive advantage over Japanese brands which generally spank them both on and off the track. It's a tough game they're playing and I think spending the resources on a China outreach program in China is a big risk but hopefully it will pay off 50 years down the line.

Don't get me wrong, I hope it succeeds and their work pays off. Although I may not be gah gah for the brands, I don't want to see Harley or BMW leave the market by any means. I'm all for competition of all kinds, from every corner of the world: it gives us options and keeps the market invigorated and colorful.

CC

Me thinks ye doth overplay the idea of the Japanese hatred, causing poor sales of motorcycles. You only need to look at the amount of Toyota and Honda cars driving around on the street to see that is a problem that can be overcome with a quality 'Chinese made' Japanese product. Of course in the future bigger capacity Chinese made Japanese bikes will be made, as the manufacturing quality increases in China, bigger bikes will be made be made for the likes of Yamaha and Honda and Suzuki for export, as well as quads etc, (but of course the the high-end stuff will always be made in Japan) whether these will be sold locally is a question for the Chinese authorities. Certainly being Japanese doesn't do them any favors, but the people that refuse to buy Japanese is a minority, the Chinese who actually like bikes don't seem to care. I saw a Chinese kid (last week, it was -5c he was still having a ride), maybe 20 or so on a YBR125, he had all the latest Valentino Rossi colors on his little Yamaha, his clothes and even a fake Rossi helmet. Some people will always want to be riding the same brand as the guys who are winning the motogp, if that's the kind of bike they like.

Of course HD and BMW do gain a lot of kudos for NOT being Japanese, and bikes are seen in a much more favorable light by the general population when they carry brand names that are not Japanese. Sure the European and American brands will have a better shot at creating a market for their machines than the Japanese. Harley and BMW are investing money, maybe they are loosing money, maybe they are breaking even, it's a business gamble that may pay off, or may not, if it pays off it will pay off big. But really what percentage of people who want a Harley or BMW can actually afford one? Maybe in Beijing or Shanghai it would mean not owning another apartment to have a beemer, but where I am it would mean the cost of 3-4 or more very decent sized apartments, really you'd have to be bonkers or extremely wealthy. Where are the likes of Ducati and Triumph? Possibly they don't really have the money to gamble on a potential Chinese market. How can a motorcycle market grow with super expensive bikes at one end and small capacity bikes at the other, with nothing in between?

However the people who know bikes in China will still always love their Hondas and Yams.

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You know what the hottest and arguably only growing segment of the moto market is in the US? 50cc scooters.

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Bonkers! Why don't they buy electric bikes? 50cc is painfully dull, (unless it is a pocket-bike).

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Concentrate on other markets? What other markets?

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Russia, India, etc etc

I still maintain that the reason that Japanese companies are not involved in China is because of the problems of regional legality and registration issues, which puts a stranglehold of red-tape around the market. The Japanese have been seriously trying to sell bikes here a lot longer than HD and BMW, and probably lost serious money when the small larger capacity bike market was killed off in 1998. They are probably worried that this will happen again, once bitten twice shy.

They are probably watching HD's and BMW's antics with fingers crossed wishing them the best of luck, as do I.

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Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

Andy,

That is some good news and I hope it goes well. It's clear that HD and BMW are pretty much the only two companies spending any resources trying to develop the Chinese bike market. They must obviously have some research that other people don't. :icon10:

The Japanese don't even try to develop the market and it's no mystery why they don't. Both companies must be in for the long haul though because there's a definite cultural stigma in China against motorcycles in general and we see this any time we try to enter a gaosu gonglu. That will be the hardest problem for them to overcome. Without support from the highest levels of government I fear it may simply result in another face project to encourage investment but not socially develop the market.

I hope it works out! I give mad credit to these guys for even trying!

Any predictions Andy? ZMC?

CC

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HD and BMW are the most aggressive, or better most visible, combatants but the Japanese and Italians are certainly also present.
I don't see a general refusal of Japanese products in China. Look at all the big Jap brands Sony, Canon, Nikon, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, high speed trains, supermarket chains, .. - the Japanese are big cash spenders in China.

Whenever a certain person pays a visit to a certain shrine or an Oil company does some test drilling in disputed areas, there is a usually short-lived call for boycott.

Japanese enterprises were surely the first to be highly active in the Chinese motorcycle market and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't make use of the experience they have gathered over the years.

From rumors I heard :naughty: and lines I read between, I assume that there will be a change in motorcycle policy. The "when" is the difficult thing to predict. All manufacturers have the same problem, the bike policy. As soon as this changes, I am sure the one or the other is going to set up an assembly plant in China.

My guess:
They establish classes of motorcycles, along with different licenses and different restrictions.
< 50 cc - local driving restrictions (city centers)
50 - 200 (250) cc local driving restrictions (city centers, maybe allowed on freeways) minimum age
> 250 cc - cat mandatory, no driving restrictions, minimum age

Let's wait and see :riding:

Andy

I forgot one, maybe important, topic. The hybrid or electric bikes of bigger size and power. It may well be that China is playing a leading role in this sector. I doubt that they would do it alone, but if a large manufacturer would be willing to cooperate (= spend the $$$), it could be another step forward.

Andy

BMW & Harley are lifestyle products, not simply motorcycles. As disposable incomes in their established markets start to fade, they are hopping the Chinese consumer will come to their rescue. Although I applaud the efforts of HD, let's not forget the real motive behind this. They failed to get action through their cries of unfair trade and now they are trying soft diplomacy to open doors in China. Remember, this is the same company that got the US government to slap a 45% tariff on all Japanese imports over 700cc back in 1983, these guys know a thing or two about lobbying. I hope the wives of the diplomats got to ride a Harley, I think it would really help the situation. :naughty:

Let's just ponder about opening those doors for a second because this kind of legislation would have a ripple effect through a lot of other industries. Once you open up to lifestyle recreation products, your talking millions of motorcycles, jet skis, snowmobiles, ATV's, boats, airplanes, helicopters, motor homes etc. I'm sure each one of these industries can present a pretty compelling case as to why the Chinese consumer needs their product, but it's going to take a long time for the folks in Beijing to figure out how to handle it. All of these industries represent freedom of travel and individuality, probably not the best marketing pitch when you're trying to persuade the Chinese government.

I think it's a long road ahead but this is China, things have been known to change rather quickly :mwink:

Cheers!
ChinaV

ZMC,

I'm not saying that because a company is not-Japanese that they will automatically succeed. There are certainly still plenty of Hondas, Yamahas, Toyotas, Nikons and Canons out there and justly so. In the world of marketing and competition, entitities struggle for every possible advantage they can get to capture market share. Notably lacking a "common mans" model line-up, BMW and HD are in this for long term and they must have made a BIG decision about their strategy and level of commitment to cultivating China as a potential market many years ago.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Bonkers! Why don't they buy electric bikes? 50cc is painfully dull, (unless it is a pocket-bike).

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Two main reasons:

1) Americans LOVE exploding things (like the Ford Pinto) :icon10:
2) It takes about 20 seconds to fill a 50cc scooter's 1+ gallon tank for about 2.5 bucks and get over a hundred plus miles out of it... then fill it again and keep going.

Electric power takes a long time to charge and that power isn't free either. Not only that, but there's something living about an IC engine which I think gives the vehicle character... whether someone is conscious of it or not. Also, batteries are totally nasty for the environment... think about all those spent batteries in China, you think they're all going to end up properly recycled? ICK....

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Russia, India, etc etc

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Not sure about Russia but India also has it's own manufacturers and are fiercely protective about it's motorcycle industry. You will see much fewer 200+cc bikes (like the CB400's you're talking about) in India than in China.

Again, not sure about Russia and would like to hear something about that.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

I still maintain that the reason that Japanese companies are not involved in China is because of the problems of regional legality and registration issues, which puts a stranglehold of red-tape around the market. The Japanese have been seriously trying to sell bikes here a lot longer than HD and BMW, and probably lost serious money when the small larger capacity bike market was killed off in 1998. They are probably worried that this will happen again.

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As usual, it's likely a combination of a lot of reasons of which outsiders like us can only make educated guesses... at best. IMHO, what BMW and Harley are up against is the difficult task of changing the cultural morays (and all the political baggage that comes with it) that exist against motorcycles and powersports in general at the higher levels.

ChinaV is right, you gotta take one of their wives for a ride of her life on a Harley (Wow, is that a loaded statement or what? :lol8:) and change their attiitudes about it. Much in the same way, the Chinese bike manufacturers need to understand riding as a passion and art, rather than a cheap utility vehical if the want to diversify their markets. All of this is still extremely recent in the scope/scale of Chinese history so will need some time to develope, so let's hope for the best! :thumbsup:

CC

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Originally Posted by Crazy Carl

Not sure about Russia but India also has it's own manufacturers and are fiercely protective about it's motorcycle industry. You will see much fewer 200+cc bikes (like the CB400's you're talking about) in India than in China.

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I was last in India in 2000, some years ago. Yes, the Indians are very protectionist about their markets, so anything made outside India is prohibitively expensive for Indians. They have been making the Jurassic single cylinder Enfields in 350 and 500cc versions for years, and Indians are buying lots of 150-200cc singles these days, Hero Honda and Bajaj being big players. Whilst I don't expect to see any multi-cylinder bikes being made there any time soon, Honda and Yamaha may start making medium sized singles there. Of course Harley and BMW will probably be never taken very seriously there as they are just too expensive. My point is that there are other potentially growing motorcycle markets in the world, other than China, even if the western world is in recession.

I hope for the best too!
T_a_i_w_a_n, Hong Kong and the domestic currently younger age group give me serious hope that there is, and will continue to be, a growing recreational riding market in China.