Legal issues, clarifying the law in China

Points I am fairly clear on.

-If a 'motorized vehicle' on the road has no license plate, no inspection plate, or no insurance card or no vehicle license card the police can impound the vehicle.

-If someone does not have a driving license they could be fined 200 yuan ~ 2,000 yuan, and possibly be detained for up to 15 days.

-If someone is killed in an accident you are involved in, and the police blame you, and you run away you could get 7 years ~ 15 years in prison.

-If they believe you caused a serious accident you could get up to 3 years in prison.

-You cannot drink any alcohol and drive.

Some questions and clearing up some points.

According to the police, there are generally two kinds of vehicles, that use the roads in China, 'motorized vehicles' and 'non motorized vehicles'.
Are motorcycles 'motorized vehicles' in Chinese law?

If motorcycles are motorized vehicles, why are they unable to drive on expressways, when Chinese law says that any 'motorized vehicle' capable of 70kmh may drive on expressways?

Some people have said you must have a 'resident permit and Chinese driving license to ride a motorcycle legally in China'. Is this incorrect? My interpretation is that at some time you must have had a residency type of visa, to be able to get a Chinese driving license in the first place. However if you at a later stage change your visa status you are still legal (for example if you come to China on a visitor/tourist visa after previously working in China), as you have a driving license which is valid for 6 years from issue.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Some questions and clearing up some points.[/SIZE][/B][/U] Chinese law?

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Remember TIC...............using logic to argue against laws is not the way to go.:lol8:

If the law states you can go on the expressway but the sign says you can't........remember, you can see the sign when it changes, you can't see the law when it does.

As for the legality of the license and the validity of the residence permit........as a matter of routine I'm sure a traffic cop wouldn't care. Have an accident where someone needs to be found at fault........TIC.

The law states that you must have a Chinese driving license and says nothing about having a resident visa to make it legally valid. So is there a law somewhere stating that if we change our visa from a residency to a visitor or business visa we should return our license? :eek2: Are there any sources of information to tell us about the law? Even in Chinese is OK! :lol8:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

: Are there any sources of information to tell us about the law?

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That's what lawyers do.............and even then.

You've been riding and driving around illegally for ages and now you are legal, why worry.................... and why the sudden urge to know the unknowable:deal:

Traffic police are interested in traffic infractions, PSB are interested in visas.
It's when the foreigner doesn't have a valid license the traffic police get all pissed off and call the PSB. Avoid the PSB and you stay out of trouble...........usually.

Fair point, I have been riding illegally for ages, but one of the reasons I got the license was so I could drive a car if I chose to a some point in the future, as the law as regards to cars is taken more seriously, at least where I live.

My point was that if you have a Chinese driving license, but you change your visa status, are you are then unable to drive legally? So my point is that to the best of my knowledge sources who are suggesting this are wrong, because there is nothing out there saying that this is in fact the case, but I'm happy to be corrected if I am wrong and there is a fact a law for this.

Another thought is, if the laws are unknowable, and the law can be enforced against you in anyway that cops feel fit, and you cannot challenge any decision they make, why bother? Why not just buy an illegal Hong Kong fireblade and ride it around with no plates, insurance and no license, surely at least that way you can be sure of your legal status!

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Another thought is, if the laws are unknowable, and the law can be enforced against you in anyway that cops feel fit, and you cannot challenge any decision they make, why bother?

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Because they don't look to make aggravation for you unless you piss them off. Face.......Cause them to loose it and they can pretty much do whatever they want.
Thing is most cops don't know who you know and how connected you are. Last thing they want to do is aggravate someone higher up the food chain than they are that maybe is your friend............give them no reason to get pissed off and they will leave you alone. If you do have an accident having all the correct paperwork will help mitigate some of your liability and punishment whether you are at fault or not............having friends in high places helps even more.

Just the way it works.........live with it, make friends or get a driver.

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live with it, make friends or get a driver.

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I have been living with it for 7 years :lol8: I'm fully aware of what you are talking about and don't need to educated on how face works......or how connections help.

I'm just trying to clarify how the law works, and assess whether at some point in the future, if I may be technically illegal, or not, driving or riding in China.

If you don't know either, fine. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

I have been living with it for 7 years and assess whether at some point in the future,<> if I may be technically illegal, or not, driving or riding in China.

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Like I said you are trying to know the unknowable............we could all be deported tomorrow. You'll never predict what the Mandarins in Beijing have in store of any of us, even the natives.

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Originally Posted by Nick in PRC.

Like I said you are trying to know the unknowable............we could all be deported tomorrow. You'll never predict what the Mandarins in Beijing have in store of any of us, even the natives.

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They have the "unknowable" in Chinese and English on the website of Beijing traffic police - here. Section 2 states that you need a residence permit.

It's a lot to read there and all in English :lol8:

Andy

P.S. I am not sure if this all is nationwide, but I think so.

That's a great link Andy :thumbsup:, I'll be aware of what it says, and believe it applies to us here too.

If anyone is wondering why I am taking the law more seriously now I am legal, this is because being legal actually will change the mileage I do, and the places I go, the types of vehicles I'll drive and possibly will need to be more aware of the safety of others. For example going for a ride in the country on my own on a bike is very different from collecting family members from an airport.

As far as I can see I am correct, as a Chinese driving license can be renewed without them officially needing to see your passport or visa (I'm sure they'd ask though), which means if a driving license was invalidated by being on another visa other than a residency visa, they would of course ask to see your visa and there would be a provision for it to be seen when renewing your license.

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Originally Posted by chinabiker

They have the "unknowable" in Chinese and English .

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That's the knowable.:naughty: The unknowable is not there........it never is.

I doubt your license would be invalidated by a visa status change but I'm using logic making that assumption. You just need a residence permit to get a license it says nothing about the licenses validity based on residency. I've found if something is not specified it can be interpreted at will. Logically though I agree a six year license should be valid for six years and not dependent on visa status..........but I'm not a judge.

My license was issued based on a residency permit in a British passport, my Drivers license has the same number as my British passport ........now I have a US passport and the residence permit number is also different...........it's not an issue with any traffic cop I've encountered cause they only want to see a valid license.
Would it be an issue with some other Govt organ, say the PSB.........who knows and I don't plan on asking.:lol8:

Read this regulation and try to keep a straight face as it pertains to Chang Jiangs. Especially regarding brakes.

:lol8:

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Article 103 Where the government department in charge of motor vehicle products fails to conduct strict examination and inspection in accordance with the State safety and technical standards for motor vehicles and permits unqualified motor vehicle models to be put into production, the persons who are directly in charge and the other persons who are directly responsible shall be demoted or dismissed from office as an administrative sanction.

Where a motor vehicle manufacturing enterprise that is permitted by the government department in charge of motor vehicle products to produce certain models of motor vehicles, fails to apply the State safety and technical standards for motor vehicles or to strictly conduct quality inspection of its finished products, so as to let its unqualified motor vehicles leave the plant for sale, the quality and technology supervision department shall, in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Law of the People's Republic of China on Product Quality, impose a penalty on it.

Where a unit that manufactures or sells the models of motor vehicles without permission by the government department in charge of motor vehicle products, the finished motor vehicles and the spare parts illegally manufactured and sold shall be confiscated, and it shall, in addition, be fined not less than three times but not more than five times the value of the unlawful products; if it has a business license, the administrative department for industry and commerce shall revoke the license; and if it has no business license, it shall be closed down.

Where self-assembled motor vehicles are turned out or sold or motor vehicles refitted without authorization are turned out or sold, a punishment shall be imposed in accordance with the provisions of the third paragraph of this Article.

Where motor vehicles not in conformity with the State safety and technical standards for motor vehicles are turned out or sold in violation of the provisions in the second, third and fourth paragraph of this Article, which is serious enough to constitute a crime, criminal responsibility shall be investigated according to law.

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This one is good for trucks :

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Article 102 Where a professional transport unit that is chiefly or fully responsible for two or more exceptionally serious traffic accidents within six months, it shall be instructed by the traffic control department of the public security organ to remove all the hidden troubles endangering safety, and the motor vehicles with the said hidden troubles shall be prohibited from running on roads until all the troubles are removed.

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I'd like to know the definition of "exceptionally serious"............and how they intend to find the hidden troubles.

Well it makes for a hefty read, the Chinese government English, and it's of course open to interpretation, but there is some information being conveyed somewhat in an over embellished form, but to be honest I've seen English far worse!...:lol8:

I imagine it is probably very illegal for tourists to ride motorcycles in China, but when I was there I found that the cops either didn't want to mess with it, or that the law left some wiggle room for wily foreigners.

There was talk about China accepting international driver permits in preparation for the olympics. I think that maybe Beijing said to all the local police stations "If you catch a foreigner and he has a permit let it slide."

Chris Maupin
www.chrison2wheels.com

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Originally Posted by Kurisu

I imagine it is probably very illegal for tourists to ride motorcycles in China, but when I was there I found that the cops either didn't want to mess with it, or that the law left some wiggle room for wily foreigners.

There was talk about China accepting international driver permits in preparation for the olympics. I think that maybe Beijing said to all the local police stations "If you catch a foreigner and he has a permit let it slide."

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The problem with China is that the rules are officially the same nationwide, but applied differently in different areas, also in bigger cities the less cops care about the fact that someone is a foreigner, whereas in some rural area a foreigner is a source of fascination.

Also in China they could be upset with American policy or someone has sold some Chinese artifact at auction, then the reception the next guy gets could be different from the previous guy.

Also in China there are too many people and too many laws, and too much corruption. This means what tends to happen is some rules are enforced on a purge basis. For example on a street near me there are loads of street vendors all over the sidewalks. Usually in the morning the cops come round to accept their daily charge of 10RMB (backhander :naughty:). Once every few years though, they come and fine all the street vendors, close down the stalls and take some stalls away. This carries on for about a month or two and you can then walk down the sidewalk, but buying food at lunchtime then becomes a headache, then everything goes back to normal. The same thing happens with traffic cops too. Also central government has peoples congress meeting every year where the change some laws and increase the seriousness of other laws and make new laws.

The problem is that there are lots of people who have ridden around China semi-legally telling everyone else there is no problem. However, an accident or being in the wrong place at the wrong time could be serious. It all just depends, and is highly unpredictable! What is predictable is that the more legal you are the better.:icon10:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

The problem is that there are lots of people who have ridden around China semi-legally telling everyone else there is no problem.

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:lol8:

Exactly how long have you had your licence ?

European license............12 years :icon10:

Seriously there are/have been people riding around on small capacity bikes with no registration. Which isn't really even trying!

The other day I saw a fellow laowei on an R1, the license plate said "Made in Hong Kong", should we say "stolen in Hong Kong"?

In my province, I know that the cops after an accident have overlooked the fact that one of my friends had no Chinese license or any other kind of license, except an expired home license which was... back in his home country, without even motorcycle entitlement! He was told that the bike being registered and insured was enough...that was here, I'm sure in Shanghai that is absolutely not the case! Which was my point, there is no static state of how much bending of the law there is which is acceptable...it depends on when, where, what, who etc etc.....

On advrider, there was a guy nicknamed 'beemer boy' who has a long thread about a ride he took in China. He bought a used Zongshen which was registered in China, rode it into China, had alot of breakdowns, sold the bike, and bought a new Qingqi. He was involved in a fairly serious accident with a car, which was determined by the police to be the car driver's fault, and the guy had to pay him compensation. However, it was in a more rural part of China, and was on a country road--in other words, it was not Shanghai. Not sure his license status, as he is an American living and working in Thailand, but I am fairly sure he did not possess a Chinese license!

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

... As far as I can see I am correct, as a Chinese driving license can be renewed without them officially needing to see your passport or visa (I'm sure they'd ask though), which means if a driving license was invalidated by being on another visa other than a residency visa, they would of course ask to see your visa and there would be a provision for it to be seen when renewing your license.

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My wife's dl expired last month and she got it renewed for another 6 years.
They didn't ask for the visa, but we still don't know whether it's not needed, they forgot or they didn't care.
You have one month to renew the dl after it expired and you get it renewed with paying a fine within one year.
You have to do it all over if you overstay the validity over one year, which means then you'll need the residence permit.
You can renew it only one month before it expires.

Again, that's in Beijing, other places may be different and things may change over night :naughty:

Interesting information, but I'm confused as why they didn't give your wife a 10 year license now, (presuming she has not been in an accident since she got her license).

I thought considering no accident or blame:

1. 6 year license
2. 10 year license
3. Lifetime license until 70

Is this different for foreigners and local Chinese?

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Interesting information, but I'm confused as why they didn't give your wife a 10 year license now, (presuming she has not been in an accident since she got her license).

I thought considering no accident or blame:

1. 6 year license
2. 10 year license
3. Lifetime license until 70

Is this different for foreigners and local Chinese?

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Never heard of the 6 - 10 - unlimited thing but I'll check it.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

Interesting information, but I'm confused as why they didn't give your wife a 10 year license now, (presuming she has not been in an accident since she got her license).

I thought considering no accident or blame:

1. 6 year license
2. 10 year license
3. Lifetime license until 70

Is this different for foreigners and local Chinese?

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You are right there. Although she didn't have any points, she only got 6 years. Maybe she should have asked for. Conditions as follows from here.

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Driver's license renewal

I. Conditions

(1) 90 days before the driver's license expires

(2) Driver's license has not been put in a suspended, canceled or revoked state

II. Required documentation

(1) <Driver's license application form>

(2) Applicant and, if applicable, authorized agent's original identification document

(3) Original Health examination certificate issued by hospital of county level and above. Applicants 71 years of age and people with bad left lower limb apply for renewal. must submit health certificate issued by the hospitals appointed by municipal bureau of medical care.

(4) Original driver's license

(5) 3 1-inch color photos with a white background

III. Processing time

Within one business day after the application has been received

IV. Others
(1) The applicant should apply to renew the license issued by Beijing Motor Vehicle Administration within 90 days before its expiration. A license with a 10 year effective period will be given to those whose penalty points are less than 12 penalty points in each of the past six years. A long-term driver's license will be issued to those whose penalty points will be less than 12 penalty points in each of the coming 10 years.

(2) Inspection of the driver's license will be done at the same time when renewing the license. Inspected items include: license holder's health condition and accumulated points. An applicant whose accumulated point total has exceeded the maximum allowable will have his/her license revoked in accordance with the 'Road Traffic Safety Violation and Punishment Regulations' (Public Security Department, Order No.69, article no. 11).

(3) An applicant 60 years of age or above or an applicant who has a license to drive large-size passenger vehicles, tractor, buses, mid-size passenger vehicle, large-size freight vehicles and trolleys must get a physical health examination once a year and submit health certificate issued by hospital of county level or above within 15 days following the end date of a annual period for recording license penalty points (one period is 12 months, beginning from the initial date of issue on the license).

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OK, so that means your wife was entitled to a ten year license. Which means that anyone having their license renewed should ask for a ten year license, which they may or may not actually get.

How are you coming along with the temporary license question?

Probably already been clarified but; I spoke to somebody in the "Beijing traffic management bureau" (北京市公安局公安交通管理局) and was told that temporary licences only covered cars. I went on to ask about getting a licence for bikes as a foreigner and non-resident. Rather than getting the categorical "not possible" I was expecting, I was told to contact the PSB traffic police in the area I wanted to visit. So, watch this space.:goodtime:

Wuming, I'll try in this area for you if you would like me to ask the PSB here!

Thanks ZMC888, I haven't forgotten about your earlier offer of help. I want to go to Xinjiang as a first choice, so I am following leads there at the moment. However, if that proves to be a non-starter, I may well head to Shandong. I've bought a ticket to Hong Kong for the end of August, but my plans once I arrive are still pretty flexible. I'll keep you updated. Cheers:goodtime:

An interesting discussion! Here's a little bit of information that I recently discovered - in Chongqing no driver's licence or vehicle licence is needed for an electric scooter. :scooter: Also no licence plate.

A Chinese friend rides one and after confirming this with several people, including the dealers this appears to be true. I bought an electric scooter a month ago and have been riding it around without a licence plate, 'cause its not registered anywhere, and have had no hassles at all.

I have heard it referred to by Chinese colleagues as a 'bicycle' and the uphill performance isn't significantly better than a bicycle :rolleyes1: but on the level it can do about 40 kph and downhill (steep) probably close to 60. :riding:

That is also the case with electric bicycles in my area. Although in Beijing I hear they must have number plates! Crazy! :eek2:

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

OK, so that means your wife was entitled to a ten year license. Which means that anyone having their license renewed should ask for a ten year license, which they may or may not actually get.

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Obviously she was entitled. It seems to be not normal that a foreigner is extending his license, since there aren't many of us staying over six years :icon10:.

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Originally Posted by ZMC888

How are you coming along with the temporary license question?

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The C1 license is pretty easy to get hold of. It shouldn't take much longer than a day or maximum two. Bike license is still a problem, but a little bird told me that it might be a lot easier to apply for E rather than for D (D includes E)

E = 2 wheels only
D = one wheel too much to be a bike and one too less to be a car :lol8::lol8:

So let's see when we are through with the next "temp dl dummy" :naughty: