How are Harley's legal in China?

In sincerely apologise if this is a done to death topic.

I read the other day that Harley Davidson has 'recently' opened legit sales in China. I also discovered a store in my town that's selling Harleys, Indians and so forth.

My understanding is that there's a national prohibition on bikes over 250cc and that to get them on the road without attracting attention, you had to buy a similarly looking bike and do a dodgy with swapping the plates.

I can't believe that Harley would stoop to selling 250cc bikes. Has the 250 rule been changed or is Harley selling them under some technicality of "not for use on actual public thoroughfares hahah you still need to do the dodgy"?

Cheers,
A slightly drunk bmic

bmic,
Historically you are correct, around 1998 or so any bike over 250cc was declared illegal and the plates were pulled by the police, new big bike sales were banned. However as bikes waned in popularity due to the rampant and in my view idiotic unsustainable love affair with the car bikes were largely forgotten and became less of a threat. For the life of me I can't remember exactly the year, maybe 2006-2008 when bikes over 250cc became legal again. That doesn't mean that the law is everywhere or that motorcycles can go anywhere for example many city centers or freeways are banned for any bike no matter the price. Also some provinces will have a restriction on the overall size of the engine. Even if you have a Ducati or Harley worth as much as a small apartment you still are far more restricted as to where you can go than a cheapo China-car worth 20,000 or so.

So now we have 5 or so made in China bigger bikes and assembled in China bikes, and a whole host of imported bikes.

Also Harley have already stooped low enough to make 250cc bikes, but not really for China, for the Indian market and have even designed a prototype e-bike.

They stooped? Mercy me!

ah, so there's no longer a national size restriction but may be provincial size restrictions. Yes, well aware of the city centre and freeway bans.

Thanks for the reply!

The crap on the internet written by people to get any attention blows out of all proportions, especially in this here forum.
Large displacement bikes were never really banned nation-wide, only certain cities / municipalities / provinces / counties stopped issuing new license plates and registration for large displacement bikes (i.e. Chang-Jiang sidecars).
During the boom of the 1990's and 2000's every village idiot and foreign looking english teacher was seen riding a CJ sidecar with a Beijing black "A" plate around capital city, even embassies and country representative offices had them CJ's with special black / red embassy plates, them CJ's were really fashionable and brought out a whole new breed of scam artists (bike shops).

Yes, in the late 90's and the years afterwards quite a lot of "grey imported" large displacement motorbikes were confiscated in bigger cities and municipalities like Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Tianjin, Zhuhai, Xiamen, etc. to resurface in the hinterland provinces up for sale with new dodgy documents and ridden back to the big cities mention earlier.
The notorious second hand markets in the Guangzhou / Beijing suburbs and the Tianjin outskirts spring to mind right now and the fake HD shops around Beijing, the custom bike builders ("wreckers") between Beijing and Tianjin....

One clever and smart move by the Shanghai government was the free exchange of motorcycle plates (yellow plates above 125cc displacement) for car plates as everyone knows cars have more status (face matter) compared to the two wheeled motorbikes. The Shanghai city government laughed as tens of thousands of motorcycle owners exchanged plates for the more prestigious car plates and they got the motorbikes of the roads and boosted new car sales. Obviously the pool of available motorcycle license plates decreased drastically and the prices for rego / plates (motorbikes) went up as new ones were not issued for quite a very long time.

Just a gentle reminder, same goes for the motorbikes on expressways China laws and regulations, never been really revised since the early 1990's and till today motorcycles technically are allowed on expressways nationwide but every county / municipality / province makes up rules and regulations as they dream them up.

Ride safe! PAL

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Originally Posted by Pal

... them CJ's were really fashionable and brought out a whole new breed of scam artists (bike shops) .... and the fake custom bike builders ("wreckers").

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So true. So VERY true.

Fortunately, the scam artists have been shutting down. But on their way out, they have been blaming their past customers for their demise. Incredibly, they blame these past customers for complaining about getting ripped off with the CJ pieces of sh1t, and all the other crap those CJ shops were ripping people off with. It apparently never dawned on these scammers that the supply of FOB expats was limited.

CJ's are pretty much dead in Beijing due to the time allotted for bike registration along with the polution controls not to mention so many expats took their registration with them when they left, leaving an ever shrinking pool of three wheel'd motorcycle number plates. At the time of the popularity of the CJ, HD's started to appear and has along with BMW become the object of desire for a new breed of motorcycle enthusiast. Luckily this happen after the CJ's were for the most part had hit the end of their run in Beijing and the cost of number plates have kept many expats from purchase so the pool of number plates for two wheel'd bikes is still available yet limited thus the investment quality of a Beijing or Shanghai number plate. While many family men may be able to convince wives and family members of the relative safety of the CJ with three wheels, the HD's and the BMW as well as the other motorcycle company players in Beijing are often treated as an undesirable idea for a family man thus the plates are not often going to expats and if so then the plates are surely sold at the end of their tenure due to the cost involved and the potential profit. There are indeed a number of legit HD dealers here ..(I use the word legit with some reserve) and a whole "lotta" BLACK_HD dealers who can sell you a bike, (check number carefully and from a variety of sources) but at this time and in this climate, the legit bike is a better choice except for cost involved.

Oh well, remember the old Beijing days with self acclaimed King of the CJ's (GG) and his sidekick Master Donghai (CJ) milking the naive foreigners arriving in Beijing and overseas....

Ride safe, Pal

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Originally Posted by Pal

Oh well, remember the old Beijing days with self acclaimed King of the CJ's (GG) and his sidekick Master Donghai (CJ) milking the naive foreigners arriving in Beijing and overseas....

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I remember it all too well ... I was suckered by one of the "Kings" back in 2004, paying 18,000 rmb for a brand spankin' "new", super-duper, all the bells & whistles, chromed-to-shit, piece of shit CJ. Then, in about 2009, I had it rebuilt by a newly self-appointed "King" for a f'n HUGE sum of money, including that infamous BMW engine. What a disaster ... sold it almost immediately at a loss (of course) because it was even worse than the original 24HP.

By the way, my 2004 CJ was 100% legal with the proverbial black A plate ... again, 18K for the legal one with absolutely everything. Looking back, however, that 18K was grossly over-priced. How the hell do these dealer-crooks now charge >30K for illegal 24HP ones?

What really amazes me about the local CJ "business" is how these cowboys refused to look at the writing-on-the-wall about their business model. Hmm, let's see ... they take an illegal piece of shit, illegally modify it (usually without any form of even a business license), chrome and polish it until it is pretty (lipstick on a pig), supply fake paperwork (as necessary), and then flog it to unsuspecting "customers" (aka "dupes"). Yup, that was/is a business model destined for disaster.

As for the Harleys, times have also changed and the Beijing shops that are flogging illegal Harleys are having many sleepless nights, and most are trying to switch to legal bikes. What always amazed me was the expat customer of these illegal bikes. Back when there was little chance of being caught riding what was (most probably) a stolen (or insurance write-off) & smuggled bike, expats had no problem purchasing them. But I guess the increasing enforcement has had an impact, especially the stories of arrest, detention and deportation. There are still the leather-clad 1%'rs hanging around who think it is "cool" to ride outside the law, but they are gradually becoming even more of a rare circus act to look at, and laugh at.

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Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

There are still the leather-clad 1%'rs hanging around who think it is "cool" to ride outside the law, but they are gradually becoming even more of a rare circus act to look at, and laugh at.

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wan·na·bee
*One who aspires to a role or position.
*One who imitates the behavior, customs, or dress of an admired person or group.
*A product designed to imitate the qualities or characteristics of something.
*Wishing or aspiring to be; would-be.


Ride safe, PAL

Interesting to note about a month ago there was a story on the news here in Australia about stolen Australian motorcycles ending up in Hong Kong. Little did they know most of those stolen Aussie MC's were ending up in mainland China well they used to. Remember there was a certain town in Guangdong where you could pick up cheap japanese MC.

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Oh well, remember the old Beijing days with self acclaimed King of the CJ's (GG) and his sidekick Master Donghai (CJ) milking the naive foreigners arriving in Beijing and overseas....

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Pal
if that is a sly reference to me, then you should know, I have never sold any CJ's or CJ parts to foreigners (although I did sell to Jim Bryant --sidecar tubs--- at a good price) and Leo and a few others dealers....as far as I know, the Donghai was not all that popular in side China and mainly my efforts was to outside owners and places like Barbers who I provided manuals and parts to rebuild a DH750.
If you have something to say, then out with it. And in reference to Gerald, never was there a person who extended his home and help to me when I arrived . He is a good friend and cheap shots are beneath this board. If you want to talk this out, then I am available.

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Originally Posted by hclayjones

reference to me, then you should know

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No finger pointing, I didn't say who was to blame - but if the cap fits, wear it.

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

Interesting to note about a month ago there was a story on the news here in Australia about stolen Australian motorcycles ending up in Hong Kong. Little did they know most of those stolen Aussie MC's were ending up in mainland China well they used to. Remember there was a certain town in Guangdong where you could pick up cheap japanese MC.

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There has been a huge trade going on with all sorts of dubious motor vehicles for decades (not only limited to CJ bikes). Greater Tianjin area and Guangdong province were notorious for "grey import" motor vehicles of all sorts (2-4 wheels) but good on them putting some sort of end to the dubious trade.

Legal import HD bikes were for a long time by far the market leader in China but loosing market shares slowly but very steady due to broader selection on bike brands and model, the more - the merrier!

Never was any ban on motorcycles over 250cc.. You can import a new bike if you want.. It's going to cost you the price of the bike again and only if you live here.. You just need the paper work which then the tax people will issue with a hege zhen.. after you've paid all the tax and duty.. Oh.. you need a driving license and insurance too..

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Originally Posted by bmic

In sincerely apologise if this is a done to death topic.

I read the other day that Harley Davidson has 'recently' opened legit sales in China. I also discovered a store in my town that's selling Harleys, Indians and so forth.

My understanding is that there's a national prohibition on bikes over 250cc and that to get them on the road without attracting attention, you had to buy a similarly looking bike and do a dodgy with swapping the plates.

I can't believe that Harley would stoop to selling 250cc bikes. Has the 250 rule been changed or is Harley selling them under some technicality of "not for use on actual public thoroughfares hahah you still need to do the dodgy"?

Cheers,
A slightly drunk bmic

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Originally Posted by Jonsims

Never was any ban on motorcycles over 250cc.. You can import a new bike if you want.. It's going to cost you the price of the bike again and only if you live here.. You just need the paper work which then the tax people will issue with a hege zhen.. after you've paid all the tax and duty.. Oh.. you need a driving license and insurance too..

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There was a ban on motorcycles over 250cc, and for a while anything over 150cc that was not some cruiser type machine was hard to find.

There were two categories of import bigger bikes, legal grey imports and illegal grey imports aka Guangdong death traps. Mostly the legal bikes were 1990-98 400cc bikes, such as the CB400, with their non-Honda Japanese brethren of a similar ilk like the XJRs and some 600s. Then there were the totally illegally imported bikes. They left one bike that you could legally grey import at this time, being the GSX250.

But that doesn't mean that big bikes couldn't be registered, Suzhou Jiangsu, and Tianjin made money from registering obviously iffy impossible to be genuine big bikes. Pre-2006 many provinces were put under pressure to ban big bikes and many, many previously legal bikes had their plates pulled by the police. This was not a national policy but a consistently followed series of provincial level policies

This all changed in 2006, but in many places only became effective in 2008, big bikes were made legal again, probably for various reasons. Mostly that Jialing wanted to manufacture a 600, and rich people ride Harleys.

sources: discussion with many, many owners of legal bikes that had plates pulled. Some kept their plates due to being mostly hidden or rarely ridden. Seen the documents, and discussed this many times with people in motorcycle clubs and motorcycle shop owners.

Disclaimer: TIC, many things are hard to know, even if you are Chinese or speak fluent Chinese. There is disinformation and incorrect facts on the Internet and many people imparting incorrect 2nd hand knowledge, these are the best known facts as drawn from multiple sources, both in Chinese and English conversation. There still could be inaccuracy, which is the nature of the culture of China.