Performance CDI for Qingqi QM200GY (Qlink XF200, STX, etc)

A cursory search for alternative performance CDI (capacitor discharge ignition) control modules reveals that the market is flooded with them. Unfortunately they're for the horizontal Honda clones used on everything from commuter bikes to ATV's, pit bikes, monkey-bikes, etc, some of the vertical 125 to 200 cc engines, and for lots of scooters.

There is power and improved running to be gained from an alternative advance curve which is programmed into the CDI's processor.

What I cannot find is an alternative unit for our bikes. The Suzuki DR units are different, at least physically (Why?), and there are no performance units for it anyway. The only bike that shares our unit appears to be the Suzuki EN125. I have done a lot of research into this, including trawling through lots of parts lists. I'm willing to be proved wrong...please!.

There must be a market for this sort of mod, Qingqis and their derivatives with the same 125/200 engines are selling like hot cakes all over the world, and yet, to my knowledge no-one has thought of this lucrative after-market item.

There's even a performance CDI available for my PGO Bugrider 250 road legal buggy and they can't have sold as many of those as the Qingqi bikes.

This is what the original factory unit looks like: Qingqi QM200GY CDI box

I have ben in touch with Gareth at Xian racing. I know he has contacts in the Far East with after-market CDI manufacturers, (they have jointly developed proven good units), and he's looking into it for me. Will let you know if the maker thinks it's a viable proposition and puts this into production. I have of course volunteered for testing, even if I have to pay for the prototype unit.
My sort of test will, of course be subjective, using the "butt dyno", but either the maker or Xian racing could arrange proper rolling road dyno tests.

It's sad that I, being an industrial electronics manufacturer have to do this. I have tried to get our Chief Engineer interested in the fascinating (?) world of magnetos, CDI's, rectifier-regulators, etc, but no dice. He's too set in his ways to change tack now. Perhaps I should fire him...:icon10:

The rest of our staff are willing, adventurous people. Just check out my Customer relations and complaints Manager.

If anyone is interested it would help to make our wishes known here, so I don't look like the only one in Christendom that wants this item.

in Brazil is a model of rounds without limitation specific to stx200 manufactured by servitec
htvenda tp://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-87078462-cdi-sem-limitador-servitec-stx-200-e-stx-motard-200-idi-_JM

Amazing. You've got everything in Brazil...:icon10: I don't know what the revs are limited to on mine. I only take it up to 8000 rpm. I don't really want to rev it much higher, but would welcome a revised advance curve that'll give a little bit of a performance increase.

The problem with this is that what could give better performance is to advance the OVERALL ignition timing. This would mean doing the sensor pick-up coil moving trick. A lot of people have done it on other bikes with good results. It involves filing the holes of the pick-up and moving it 2 mm clockwise with respect to the magneto rotor. I might have a go and do that next time I drain the oil for a change.

Thanks for the link. I might ask Servitec if they've done anything to the advance curve as well as removing the rev-limiter.

I've checked out SERVITEC web page. They make CDI units for all sorts of bikes, including the STX Sundown (Brazilian Qingqi QM200GY). This alternative unit just removes the RPM limit. Its part number is 50.147.15 . Not really what I'm looking for.

What I (We?) really want is something like this one for the Honda CBF250, also called CBX250 Twister in Brazil, part number 50.105.77 that has a choice of 3 rpm limits and 10 different ignition advance curves to try out. All these are selected by a remote control unit similar to a key fob...clever eh?.

http://www.servitecmoto.com.br/zoom/...em%20chave.jpg

This is their CDI page: http://www.servitecmoto.com.br/ignicoes.htm

This is the manual that shows the method of adjustment and the different curves:
http://www.servitecmoto.com.br/Manua...250eCBX250.pdf

The Excel file detailing the different advance curves of another CBF250 unit (part nº 50.105.84) with 24 curves !!!:
http://www.servitecmoto.com.br/Curva...o50-105-84.xls

I have sent them an email asking if they have plans to introduce such a unit in the future for our bikes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

I have sent them an email asking if they have plans to introduce such a unit in the future for our bikes.

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I'm quoting myself here, but deep down I KNEW I was pissing against the wind...this is the reply I received today:

"Hello Ernesto.
We do not want to introduce a new product for Sundown STX200. In Brazil
there are few owners of this model of Sundown.
We appreciate your contact and interest in our products.
Regards,

Eng. Elet. Marcelo José Rodrigues
Departamento de Engenharia
e-mail: engenharia@servitecmoto.com.br"

"Few" owners of the STX Sundown, when they have a factory in Brazil?, are they aware of all the other names these bikes are sold with all over the world?. Would Sundown have published such an expensive service manual to sell just a "few" of these bikes?. The potential market must be considerable. As manufacturers they should know. Agree?.

It is shameful the way the Brazilian businessmen treat consumers but yes there many QM200 in Brazil and has developed a sevitec cdi fully programmable with data cable and softwere for pc that can be used in many engines they must know they are losing a huge market

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Luis Carlos

It is shameful the way the Brazilian businessmen treat consumers but yes there many QM200 in Brazil and has developed a sevitec cdi fully programmable with data cable and softwere for pc that can be used in many engines they must know they are losing a huge market

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I've seen that CDI that is programable by PC as well. They talk of using a sort of universal box and an adapter for different bikes. There's a picture of the adapters and one of them looks as if it would fit the QM200.

Once they have developed the unit that removes the RPM limit on the STX, it can't be that difficult to alter the processor circuits inside the unit to give a different advance curve. This processor is usually one of those PIC16 type and easy to program and alter. The hard work, that is making the alternative box, connector mouldings, etc and the coil firing circuits, is already done. I'm a manufacturer and, we do custom changes to our standard products all the time to suit the whims of different clients. It is called "creating gooodwill" and keeping a customer for life.

It's a shame as I liked the company, it seems young and technically very advanced and adventurous. I even thought about using my company and its structure to distribute their products. Looks like good engineering let down by bad marketing. A little research would have told them how widely these bikes are sold all over the world.

Come to think of it, if they've sold so few, why do they list an alternative CDI with no RPM limit on their site?. Was it worth making one for so few?.

There will be NO demand for a product if it's not advertised and marketed in the proper way, through forums, magazines or just through the Internet using Google ads. Just google for "performance CDI" and thousands come up but no-one has used Google-ads service and without using the word "servitec" they don't come up. This means their very good web page is not being found by search engines.

It's 80 percent marketing. Marketing has the amazing power to sell total crap to millions of people. Woe is to any new or small business that doesn't try to understand and use the fundamentals of marketing...this certainly includes manufacturers.

CC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

I'm quoting myself here, but deep down I KNEW I was pissing against the wind...this is the reply I received today:

"Hello Ernesto.
We do not want to introduce a new product for Sundown STX200. In Brazil
there are few owners of this model of Sundown.
We appreciate your contact and interest in our products.
Regards,

Eng. Elet. Marcelo José Rodrigues
Departamento de Engenharia
e-mail: engenharia@servitecmoto.com.br"

"Few" owners of the STX Sundown, when they have a factory in Brazil?, are they aware of all the other names these bikes are sold with all over the world?. Would Sundown have published such an expensive service manual to sell just a "few" of these bikes?. The potential market must be considerable. As manufacturers they should know. Agree?.

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I received a response from Servitec:
Good afternoon,
First thank your contact and ask forgiveness for the delay in responding.

In time for the Sundown STX 200 make the original model and the model without the spin limiter.

Anyway, I will forward your e-mail to the engineer to evaluate the possibility of developing a programmable CDI for this bike.

Regards,

Vanessa Cicconeto.
Sales
Servitec Electronics Industry Ltda.

:rolleyes1:

Fantastic.:clap: Thank you Luis Carlos.

Perhaps if we send them the list of alternative names the bike is sold with all over the world, they'll realise how popular this range of bikes has become.

Xian Racer is getting one developed at my request by the usual supplier of theirs in China. Gareth has informed me that it will be available for testing in about two weeks and will be sending me a unit for trials.

The problem is that this speed has been achieved by the usual Chinese method of "development". This has consisted of me sending Gareth a photo of my CDI unit, he has forwarded it to his Chinese supplier, who, in his tea break, went by the Qingqi spares depot and bought a standard factory unit.

From that he says it has developed a "Racing" version and made ten prototypes. One of them is on the way to Europe (and me!) right now.

They haven't specified what they have done to the advance curve to warrant the "racing" label though, but I suppose they know what they're doing...:rolleyes1:

The list of alternative brand names is at this thread, post number 2:

http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76

To illustrate the difference a good performance CDI can make, take my Skyteam ST110-6 (Honda Dax or CT70 replica), with a 107cc Lifan engine. It has been uprated with a 22mm carb, free air filter and exhaust, cylinder head breather, and rear suspension.
I have tried two types of CDI on it: The first one just removes the RPM limiter, and therefore of little use in normal circumstances. Just allows you to rev a bit higher in the intermediate gears. The second one did improve things a bit, like a little higher top speed and better throttle response, but the third one is quite incredible. The engine just howls away after passing the half revs mark and accelerates a lot better. Even the sound has changed, it's now sharper with a spine tingling tone. The only proviso is that It's wise to use a higher grade of petrol. I'm using 98 grade now. There's a danger of pinking or pre-ignition with the more advanced timing curve.

Got it from here:

http://xian.west-wire.co.uk/index.ph...od&productId=3

Looks like this. The make is POSH. This make has a very good reputation:

http://xian.west-wire.co.uk/images/u...TO6pitbike.jpg

http://xian.west-wire.co.uk/index.ph...od&productId=3

This is where it fits on the bike, just wedged in next to the battery:

http://www.telecable.es/personales/a...ax/poshcdi.jpg

This is the bike. I've put original Honda stickers on it to stop people asking me "what make is that". The amount of attention it gets, considering it's a 35 year-old design is incredible:

http://www.telecable.es/personales/a...ca/dax/dax.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

I'm quoting myself here, but deep down I KNEW I was pissing against the wind...this is the reply I received today:

"Hello Ernesto.
We do not want to introduce a new product for Sundown STX200. In Brazil
there are few owners of this model of Sundown.
We appreciate your contact and interest in our products.
Regards,

Eng. Elet. Marcelo José Rodrigues
Departamento de Engenharia
e-mail: engenharia@servitecmoto.com.br"

"Few" owners of the STX Sundown, when they have a factory in Brazil?, are they aware of all the other names these bikes are sold with all over the world?. Would Sundown have published such an expensive service manual to sell just a "few" of these bikes?. The potential market must be considerable. As manufacturers they should know. Agree?.

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Response of servitec:
Luis Carlos hello, hello Vanessa.

Although the model 200cc Sundown be marketed by a motorcycle world, we have commercial access only to the domestic market, since we have no official representatives outside Brazil.
So with only the domestic market is not commercially viable to introduce a product as required. Macional estimated market of more than 10 pieces / year for this product.

Furthermore the product 50.100.05 may be used in STX200 the ignition coil of STX200 is changed and if 50.100.05 is updated to synchronize properly with STX. We can develop this update, but not now because the priorities of engineering.

Regards,

Eleta Eng. Marcelo José Rodrigues
Department of Engineering
e-mail: engenharia@servitecmoto.com.br
Phone / Fax: (54) 3224.2299

Servitec Electronics Industry Ltda.

http://www.servitecmoto.com.br/cdi2009_2.jpg

• Programming via computer, online (requires Servitec 50.111.30 communication cable not included);
• Curve-point adjustable according to the rotation and position of the accelerator (the bike must have the TPS sensor);
• Limiting the rotation fully programmable;
• Exchange between two different schedules via the handlebar CTR, even with the engine running;
• Configurable output for tachometer or shift-light;
• Entry of block configurable;
• Correction of the point of temperature (requires sensor not included);

Brilliant work Luiscarlos. Thanks once again. I thought that one of the adapters on the photo would suit the STX (the bottom one).

It's a real shame they don't seek representatives in other countries, they appear to be professional and technically competent.
The silly thing is that these days with things like the Internet, you don't really need representatives. Lots of companies trade worldwide with just a good website that can be found by Google enquiries and some Google ads placing. If they just got a Google ad account with a few well-chosen words, anyone making an enquiry would soon find them.

Gareth, from Xian Racing, tells me that he's not only sending me one uprated CDI free for trials on the Qingqi, but TWO units. It seems he has convinced another Far East manufacturer to develop one as well. So there you have it, two different Far Eastern manufacturers that at least try to seek out new markets and listen to what customers want.

Not having access to a rolling road dynamometer or anything like that, and not wanting to give them a vague report on the performance improvements (if any), does anybody know of a way to measure the performance in an objective and repeatable manner?.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

Gareth, from Xian Racing, tells me that he's not only sending me one uprated CDI free for trials on the Qingqi, but TWO units. It seems he has convinced another Far East manufacturer to develop one as well. So there you have it, two different Far Eastern manufacturers that at least try to seek out new markets and listen to what customers want.

Not having access to a rolling road dynamometer or anything like that, and not wanting to give them a vague report on the performance improvements (if any), does anybody know of a way to measure the performance in an objective and repeatable manner?.

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Thats AWESOME forchetto!!! Let me know the results after you test them out...I am interested in getting one!

I'm hoping someone can suggest a way of testing the units so that the results are not just subjective. If no one suggests a better way I considered using the method that poster FROG on Chinariders.net has used. This are his comments on a POSH brand CDI fitted to his LIFAN 200GY-5 and his testing method and results:

First impressions are good! Starting has not been adversely affected and immediately the changed engine note is noticable - bike sounds and feels less 'soft' than it did. Driveability is definately improved - this has got rid of a flat spot in the rev range I did not really know I had - bike revs more cleanly through out the rev range and pick up is noticably better. I think it is faster or at the least easier to drive faster.

Had a chance to do some testing this lunch hour.

Conditions:
Lifan GY5 200cc
level road
no wind
heavy rider
standing start in first gear
Measured half kilometer (GPS measured)
17/46 sprocket set up

Test method:
dictaphone in jacket top pocket. Beep horn on start and when crossing finishing point - use stop-watch later to time between beeps

Several runs in both directions

Times with original CDI - 27.50 to 28.72 secs
Times with POSH CDI - 24.32 to 25.44 Secs

So probably around a 12% improvement. ( I would expect this to be greater over a shorter distance) as I do not think top speeds were that much different - but you get there quicker with the new CDI.

I have to say I was not thoroughly thrashing the bike but acceleration was a lot harder than I would normally use in day to day riding. Main benefit to me is the cleaner pick up and nippier feel to the new CDI. People with less mechanical sympathy may get a bigger difference.........

I may repeat this Testing over a shorter run - say a standing start 1/4 mile a la drag racing............

Only thing I can think of to test Horsepower and torque is a motorcycle dyno but I am not sure if you have access to one. We have alot of them in bike shops over here is the USA.

Warning: Extremely boring post...:rolleyes1:


My English and Chinese friends have hit a problem with the CDI units for the Qingqi. It seems that they're not a CDI at all, whatever they call them in the manuals or parts lists. They're in fact "Inductive discharge Ignition". This means that there's no exciter coil in the generator, which is not a "magneto" like lots of other Chinese bikes, but a proper 3-phase alternator.

Rather than relying on an exciter coil generating a highish AC voltage, rectifying it and then charging a capacitor with it, to be discharged across the HT coil by a pulse signal applied to a Thyristor, this system just takes 12 volts from the bike's system and applies to the coil primary winding through a semiconductor, probably a MOS-FET or an IGBT type transistor. The pulse coil signal acts to interrupt that primary current by switching off the transistor very rapidly, inducing a high voltage in the coils secondary winding.

The advantages of this system is that the longer duration of the spark (2000 microseconds compared with 600 for the CDI), and greater spark energy (50 milijoules compared with 10), makes for a better system to fire weaker mixtures and reduce pollution. It seems that only bikes on the cheaper end of the market persist on using CDI (Capacitor discharge Ignition) nowadays.

This means they'll be a delay in creating an alternative performance unit for our bikes, until they can fathom out how to copy and improve an original.

This type of ignition box is better termed an "Ignitor" or "igniter".

Following many months of development and the testing of various prototypes, Xian racing can now offer the first ever uprated performance CDI (igniter) available for our bikes.
http://xian.west-wire.co.uk/images/u...KPro_RM200.JPG

Suppliers of performance CDI or any other alternative parts for relatively low volume bikes like ours are virtually non-existent,low volume because they're sold under 22 different trade names so far!, if you added up all the sales of different brands worldwide it would amount to a quantity that would make it worthwhile for after-market parts to be made.

Thanks to the perserverance of Gareth from Xian Racing to persuade their suppliers of other performance CDI units to develop and make a unit suitable for our bikes, and to me bending his ear to get one made...:icon10: they can now offer a unit at a price that is more or less the same as the standard factory unit.

This is very good value for that type of ignition unit. These igniters are
considerably more complex than the usual CDI magneto-driven units, and sell for around $125-200 (when they're available!). A similar unit for my PGO mini buggy cost $150.

The cost is £39.99 +postage. This is about $65.00 which is very good value in my opinion.

I've had a prototype unit on long term test now for some months and can report that it's reliable, doesn't affect cold starting like some units do due to their over-advanced ignition setting, and perks up performance in the 4 to 8000 RPM range. The roll-on acceleration from mid-revs is noticeably better and so is hill-climbing and cruising speed. The engine copes better with adverse conditions on the open road, like hills and head winds.

The factory rev-limit has been removed and moved much higher up.This is of interest to those that want to do further tuning and need a higher rev limit.

The fitting is incredibly simple. Double sided tape or velcro strips fix it to the rear mudguard and an OEM-style connector on flying leads connects it to the wiring loom without any mods.

The standard unit doesn't have to be removed as there's plenty of space there for both of them. This means in effect that you carry dual ignition units on the bike. It only takes seconds to swap the connector from one unit to the other. This gives some security and peace of mind.

http://www.telecable.es/personales/a...gqiigniter.jpg

I have to add that I have nothing to gain financially from this. Gareth is a friend and an honest, approachable and reliable supplier of various bits and pieces for my stable of Chinese bikes.

My reward has been to see such a unit being developed and made available where there was none, and a prototype unit supplied free of charge.

The unit can be seen here. It will fit both 125 and 200 cc variants of these Suzuki-derived engines on bikes sold with any of these brands:

QINGQI QM200GY
QLINK XF200
STX 200 Sundown.
Pulse Adrenaline 125 (XF125GY-2B)
Sinnis Apache QM200GY
Superbyke RMR200
Pioneer XF200GY-B
Konker KSM200
QMT200
GXT Euromot
Sinski Motard 200R
Genesis GXT200 B
KMF
I-moto Tiger sm 125
Ramzey QM200GY
YUKI 250 SM
QINGQI DRAGON 200 SUPERMOTO
Hooper 125 SMR
PIONEER monodust XF125T
Kreidler Supermoto 125 DD
Arqin motorcycles RT200SM
TMS Supermotard 200cc
SkyMoto Dragon-200
Matador 200
Viper 200

I'll be grabbing one of these for sure!

Great job forchetto! Just a few questions. Would this fit the DR200? I don't have one but if it did I know a lot a people would snap one up. Also, do you still advocate a higher octane fuel? I didn't see anything mentioned at Xian but you did in post #11.

When I was looking for an alternative unit for mine I asumed someone would have made one for the Suzukis 125 or Dr200 but no luck. I did notice that the Suzuki box has different connectors but I'm sure the electronics could be compatible if each wire is identified and connected accordingly. Although the box has an 8 pin connector, only 4 of them are used so the conection should be simple.
The problem is finding someone with one of those bikes to play with.

If you feel up to it Gareth has another prototype unit that is programable through a PC. It will eventually retail for about £90 but he's willing to let me try one for half that price.

The problem is that I'm allergic to software :icon10: and feel sure I would cock it up somehow, so I've declined to help there.

I'm still using 98 octane petrol. I don't know why I do that, maybe simply because it's available at normal pumps over here, but I have tried the unit over two tankfulls on 95 octane and there's no problem with pre-ignition or anything.

hi
i have (qingqi qm200gy)
is Kamikaze Pro increase acceleration?:riding:
and use this with low octane petrol may harm engine in long time?
do you recomended this for my bike?:scooter:

It increases acceleration from about mid-revs upwards. 4000 rpm+. It does this by advancing the ignition at a faster rate than the standard one. If your fuel is less than say 92 octane it may pink a bit. Pinking is also calle pre-ignition and could be harmful to your piston.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

It increases acceleration from about mid-revs upwards. 4000 rpm+. It does this by advancing the ignition at a faster rate than the standard one. If your fuel is less than say 92 octane it may pink a bit. Pinking is also calle pre-ignition and could be harmful to your piston.

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tanks
there is 2 kind of petrol in iran
1 - 70 to 85 octane called natural petrol
2 - 95 octane called super petrol

therefore can i use this with natural petrol?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arash

tanks
there is 2 kind of petrol in iran
1 - 70 to 85 octane called natural petrol
2 - 95 octane called super petrol

therefore can i use this with natural petrol?

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I would have thought that the natural petrol (70 to 85) would be too low. The 95 octane would be OK.

Hey guys I noticed Xian racing has the Kamakazi 200 CDI for $29.99 Pounds right now. With shipping to U.S. it came to $64. Woohoo!


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kamikaze-Pro-R...110001r16881//

edit (you would think being a web developer I could put a link properly)

Couldn't get that link to work. Let's try this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kamikaze-Pro-R...item4a9abd0302

Quote:

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Originally Posted by forchetto

Couldn't get that link to work. Let's try this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kamikaze-Pro-R...item4a9abd0302

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Thank you forchetto!

I bought one so I'll let you all know what I think

Hello chaps,

Not posted for a while but been reading this thread with interest - Any update from you guys that have invested in the CDI upgrade for the 200GY?

I've just changed to an iridium plug, new air and oil filter and changed to semi-synthetic oil so just wondering if anyone has had any reliability issues with the revvier engine characteristics as the new CDI is on my shopping list!

cheers

Ian:thumbsup: