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Hi all, thought I'd share some 3d model pics I received in an email from Jason Lau of Shineray. He is super helpful and nice. Bike looks quite interesting, guess it won't be available in USA, but in Canada. Jason mentioned the prototype plastics were out and he plans on showing this model at this year's ECIMMA. Check out pics below:
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Looks good, but I dont hold my breath to see it on the road before 2013.
The X2 (XY250-GY2) was shown around for years before it was commercially available...and now as it is available, it cant be registered - at least in China. And nobody in Shineray knows when they will be able to upgrade to FI. Thier communication towards the market and dealers is a mess.
The track record of Chinese manufacturers to make prototypes is well known - the final available product is a different story. Check for the QingQi 250...
Those are all computer generated images….so its not really even a prototype, its a computer generated rendering.
The way to get in the market is with low cost access for dealers the retailers need to get the unit at low cost, retailers need to make revenue on the sale and they will sell them and support them only if they make profit on them.
They could select the largest dealers in several large markets, then offer them one unit each on consignment at cost.
That offer should be with a contract that dealers agree to take delivery on any unit ordered online, and to prep, register and service those orders.
The 250 offered for a year, offered that way and with pricing to dealers that only covers the operating costs of the factory to get them in the market, that done to establish business relationship with big dealers in big markets.
They should only offer one model and police the heck out if, with serious 24 month warranty.
I would suggest a OTD retail price under $2,800.00 for the 250 if that is not possible then they can forget the USA market. The online purchase should be at or under that amount and include everything dealer prep tax, delivery and title.
They have to have a website that is 100% state of the art, that links to all related information and 100% accurate. The management of the sale of the bikes in the USA has to be done by an American and strategic with the intention of penetrating the market.
That person would need a staff and be linked to the factory, the entire staff should be employees of Shineray. They should develop a process support system for the market and implement it into the market place. They all, that being the manufactures, require a application software that links them to the unit’s they manufacture and sell into the market.
They need to spend money to make money, it takes time. The customer will always choose the best for the least price, they seem to be trying to see how much profit they can make and that is putting the cart before the horse. They cannot command high prices until they earn the right in the eyes of the consumers. They should never assume the customer is foolish or naive they should assume the customer is highly knowledgeable and shrewd . They need to be totally on top of the units they sell as they sell them, they need customers raving about the value and quality of the motorcycles. They need the dealers to be applauding them on the fast and timely support.
It is all and should be an exercise, it all should be a prototype and perfected to be 100% on every aspect. They then have place to launch new models. Consider that Kawasaki has 850 dealers in the USA, in order to sell these Shineray motorcycles you have to also sell through as many of those 850 dealers as possible. You have to impress them you also have to reward them or they will never let you in.
Looks very interesting. I want one but it's likely to be one of those projects that takes years or never happens.
Might be closer to reality if they stuck their DOHC 250 engine in there.
Here's a picture that was posted September 2009. So here we are almost two years later and we get computer renderings.
I have to wonder if Yingang has the ability to get their 250cc water cooled engine to meet the C3 standards.
This prototype would do well with the 250cc DOHC, if it was approved and they had a better systems of support.
It is not rocket science, they need a distributed application software, the products entered into the system at the factory and tracked through the value chain to dealers and even record customer.
Please we are all on a computer and all distributed across the globe, a simple database that records and links all the related documents. It is not just a products design it a business process, big companies acting like little companies…the results can be disastrous.
The VIN is a primary key, it can be linked through multiple tables, parts tables and in those linked to suppliers.
With respect to these companies they may have to set up a parallel system, then test it, that can be done with or for only one production line for one model. It can be done into a market they have not yet penetrated, as in an exercise, then once patented the process can then be expanded to other production lines and other markets.
All the bikes can line up like soldiers in the factory, but if they are not guided by lines of data that track them you lead those soldiers of a cliff.
It is or maybe to soon for the advancement of the product line, the previous products or current products in the retail market have not established a sustainable foothold.
They have to maintain a very tight communication network through the value chain, from the factory to the consumers, everyone looking at the same information. As it is today the hand offs fail, misinformation and even intentional distortions abound.
A consumer should see the production schedule, they should see in a lag, as inventory on hand or advertised. Showing them a fantasy bike has no value.
This one is a KTM or copy of a KTM.note the PDS linkless suspension.Quote:
Originally Posted by david3921
The XY400GY is a copy of a Honda XR400.I think the XY 400GY made it into production a couple of years ago but in a different format.
hi mate, how do you know YINGANG. I am from the factory and the 250 DOHC is good. unfortuantely, we will not develop the RAlly bike. we develop a bike will take more than 3 years at least. maybe, we are not as clever as most Chinese motorcycle factories. now the 250NF with EFI will be ready in early 2012 in USA. also the C3 stardand is in application. at the same time 2012- JAN-01; it will be on Chinese market.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
Dear Ryamond!Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondygz
Many thanks for your post and warmly welcoming you to MyChinaMoto! If you are here reading this forum, you are not less clever than other Chinese manufacturers, you are more clever. There a a ton of excitement here about Chinabikes in general, and about your 250 in particular. Please have a look through serpentza's recent thread, which features a buddy riding the C2 Yingang 250NF. As you'll see, these guys really like the Yingang. Dig a bit deeper, and you'll find that the Yingang in that thread previously was owned by MCM member ChinaV, who wrote in very great detail about his experiences with the bike over more than 20,000 km of daily riding.
We really really want your bikes to succeed, especially inside China -- not just overseas. And the better that Yingang does, the harder your competitors will work to make their bikes better and better.
You will make a lot of people happy with your news that the C3 250NF will hit the market in January! Though the bikes are different, lots of us are wondering how the Yingang will shape up against the C3 Qingqi 250 motard, which is supposedly coming out in November or December. Competition is good, and will make your bikes better and better.
I really appreciate your taking time to post here -- in English. Please feel free to post here any time. Feel free to ask questions! You'll win lots of friends by initiating a dialogue with us. We love Chinabikes, including the Yingang.
cheers!
I found information on Yingang on the internet,I discovered them in 2009.Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondygz
What is your position at Yingang.Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondygz
Nobody was suggesting that you should, Shineray already has, it may be clever to sell your EFI to them. That being if Yingang developed it, if not then still a relation with those also producing the same engine would be mutually beneficial. Sharing should go beyond technology and related technical training, it should also venture into shared business processes for distribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondygz
I am sorry to hear it took you five year to get a handle on the industry....that being said you may be careful with your use of the word clever.
My point was nothing more then a remolded set of body panels, what would be required to make the above concept from an existing Shineray model.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y.../rendering.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...04623289-1.jpg
If you are selling into a market the, then within that is support and with it is parts and related resources.
I once called Qlink and asked how many of the XP200 do you have in stock, the response was 14 in black.
I once called Massimo and asked how many of the NF250 do you have in stock,. It took a while for the representative to say they had none left in the warehouse.
Logic would say that the person answering the phone should be able to see the location of all of the bikes wherever they are located, then find one closest to my location. They have software that does distance calculation on ZIP codes. Then all the models get a zip code, they are assigned the zip code of the location they are at….think about it, they are not really sold until they are titled to an owner. By the way in the USA you are required to actually maintain such a list. A list of all the first owners, and guess what that includes their address that includes a zip code. Then you’re building sales data, and guess what else others in the industry are not and in that you gain what is called a competitive advantage. Because then you can see were your markets are within the big North America.
To gain dealers you show them data, what you sell and what the margins are, what the consumer surveys say, what the dealers records are related to initial quality. Then you let your assemblers and Foreman see that in the factory.
Here is another clever thought, if you share an engine type with Shineray, then you can offer an entrance into the market for them, the certificate for the EPA blankets the engine family. It would be clever if one entity managed that and also the parts lists and what is the shared and what it not. You also need staff that can address federal regulations, did you know all of your products being sold in the USA are violating existing federal regulations? I believe you have been told, did it register in your organization?
It’s about connections as in relationships that are real, simply collecting up different manufactured products and adding a trivial name is not real, its contrived and in that useless. It reeks of diversionary and avoiding what…liability?
There is an expression, it’s dazzle them with brilliance or baffle them with bullshit, your agent in the US is all about the later.
Its not that complicated, the product have to be monitored through the entire process. But ignoring any part of that process, fragments the process and in that it becomes unaccountable. The line workers are probably one of the most crucial elements of the process, the assemblers.
Typically an assembly line is in sections, nodes with events that occur at them. They are supplied with bins of parts and typically each node adds something.
That event is part of a series, its an event within the series. One series may assemble a certain number of models and in that each model has sequential events that occur, its called an assembly line. Ideally you identify each event and also each assembler on that event.
In the end, that being a finished model or a set of finished models is an identifiable series. It is assigned a unique vehicle identification number and with it is a series number, however that series needs to have subordinate data. That data would identify all the parts and also all those that added the parts, what who and when.
Then you have lists of vehicles with identifiers, when they leave the factory the list get augmented with more codes, location codes that follow them, they are logistical codes. They are used to count and also to track lead times and should actually be augmented in the end with actual owners names and addresses.
Then you have your list and you satisfy most if not all regulation in doing that, because now as each model incurs a part replacement or is taken in for servicing it get a trouble ticket and code. The mechanic would be assigned an ID number and would be ideally trained on the system. They would record all parts orders and replacements as well as document systems and or diagnoses and related resolutions. That all would be monitored by a service manager that would review all tickets for accuracy. That’s important because in that you build a knowledge base. In that high propensity of events, events that are common on a model launch action events, it sends notices or bulletins to both the shop floors. That being the factory and also to dealers.
But you have to also consider motivation and simply cannot punish the bad you also have to reward the good. So you should be able to see that accountability is very important.
If you consider that and the potential to see the time from the series creation at the factory to the final sale to a consumer and the results, its ideal. You then can meter your lines to meet demand and take time to refine the process as you do. You see what sells and with customer data, you can survey them and introduce concepts and ideas to them.
Here is good example of a website, http://www.loncin.ca/models.aspx
Its not perfect the schematics are not clear, the diagrams should be clear. But it is or would be very useful and could be expanded, it has all the parts listed for each model.
Such a system could be used to identify each part and also specially for a series, that being if a part changes so does the related part number for that series. Since the part list is a table, then adding a code for the series only shows parts with that specific series number associated with the series Id. That’s called a query, when entering a specific vehicle identification number it initiates a query. Each part should have an associated data sheet, it can be so detailed that it could include a source identification code. That allows for clever parts source management or quality control if internally manufactured. It can allow for cost control since revisiting and replacing part costs. All parts have a life span and as a manufacturer it is smart, you would have metrics for each part…you should strive to get data back on reliability of parts. The goal is to eliminate poor sources and embrace higher quality. It also allows for synergistic alignment with sources as suppliers, sending them feedback.
I would say that if you intend to sell a model with electric fuel injection you better offer technical training and at the dealer level, and like I pointed out earlier you need to have a support system and also train at the dealer level on how to use that system. That means every dealer must have a computer terminal and also high speed internet. That should include a scanner and each model should have a bar code that pulls up the list and identifies the model, the specific model of a specific series. Once the bike is sold to the customer you should send them a card with the code on it, then they should be able to enter the code each time they address the support system. Then each individual bike has an associated data sheet, in fact it would be required for a warranty. Then as a function of quality you work to reduce the claims, not by avoiding or denying them but by simply eliminating them at the source. That is either the supplier or the assemblers or both.
Multiple manufacturers should share such a system, then in that they can cross reference parts, some shared and some propriety. Working in reverse a query and a part number could bring up a list of models from a list of manufacturers. That’s important it helps to isolate bad suppliers, if they are not using a identifiable part numbers they could be simply avoiding accountability. They could be commonly used and only because they are the cheapest source. But disposable drives total costs higher over the life of a product and also has heavy losses in future opportunities, it kills reputations and prevent repeat buyers.
It really all begins in the factory, but has to be linked to the market, if it fails it has to feed that back and even if it takes a redesign then that has to happen. Each series should have increased quality…it has to be continuous, just to refine what exist and the system that supports it happening.
Consider this….it’s a importer that is managing the distribution of more then one brand. They are not creating a brand and offering multiple brand names. That is a distributor and its real, it not contrived, may not be that successful but its defiantly presenting itself professionally.
http://www.cmimotor.ca/
All that site does or represents is a portal to the actual sites of each actual manufacture. Click on access and you see the portal gateway.
I think its all about managed services, if a manufacturer does not have a good website then creating one for them a service. If they do not have good documentation, again a service.
If you click on any of the links you then are at the specific brands site…its a superior business model.
opposed to this:
The concept of Massimo is queer…then they also have all the redundancy, like Blue Devil Motors they set up at least three or four redundant sites. Its gross the approach they are taking to the market.
http://www.bluedevilpowersports.com/
http://www.yingangusa.com
http://www.motosportsplanet.com
http://www.scooters-wholesale.com
http://massimomotor.com
So im thinking about one of those shinerays cos they seem to be available.
Does anyone know anything about them? quality and reliability-wise
The price is quite high for a Chinese brand (24k-30k) so maybe they finally made something a bit more reliable....i thought the long march (xy200gy-7) was great concept for long trips but not good enough for such according to the internet they break quite a lot.
X5 costs over three times as much so im hoping for a good quality cos the bike looks great, 400cc is perfect for me and i will be needing dual purpose bike before april
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...id=19674456938
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...id=15685146301
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...id=18483175660
edit: zorge, youre right...sorry, already corrected
Only last link is for new Shineray. First and second are for Xingyue bikes.
looks like rear shock is a bit soft. with 40kg panniers off road might be a problem
http://www.othermakes.net/2012/01/25...-x5-in-action/
Personally I wouldn't touch a Shineray or a Xingyue. They might be OK but they haven't been tested an the EFI fills me with dread, and knowing past let downs with Asiawing and Regal Raptor don't bode well. Also the price doesn't mean anything good about the bike, other than that's the maximum that they think someone will pay. They figure if a 600 4 is 40,000, and a 600 single is 32,000 then a 400 single must be about 25,000-30,000. It's not entirely their fault because Chinese buyers think 'if it is only 15,000-20,000 it must be rubbish' so won't buy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by modron
I would not even consider one unless the retailer has some images with rows of them, that one bike could be a test bike. If a vendor cannot display some real photos of the bikes they really should not be getting any sales of them either. The bike should be retail priced below 27500 RMB and the factory should be promoting it better its not showing up in any foreign markets is it.
Shineray should be setting up distribution in Eastern Europe, value pricing and insuring solid support.
The way to establish entry into the market is to offer the best prices and creating lots of real owners attesting to the value of the motorcycles.
Getting what you pay for is not a new adage, raising the price on a poorly made, poorly supported product or even one that is simply unknown does not negate the adage.
They need at least 250 of those sold into a region that has the best support and also in a region that has a propensity to review them on the internet? They have to be committed to offer great support, to insure that if any issue pops up they have a first line of support at the dealers.
The lower the price the more they sell, but establishing the initial perception of value in reality is actually proving its value and has nothing to do with pandering misinterpretations or misrepresentations of value. Over pricing does not make it worth more, it only means you paid too much for it.
If they cannot come out of the gate accepting a break even in order to invest in a real market campaign they will not succeed, if they think inflating prices creates value that is simply pandering a misconception.
They need some real proven R&D. Get 10 to 50, lend them out to experienced riders, send them out around the world to potential markets sign them up to non-disclosure for a few months, iron out any issues and generate some favorable word of mouth publicity and have them as demo bikes. Of course this doesn't happen. What does is companies desperate to fill containers and make money whilst brainwashing themselves that they are wonderful, whereas everyone else remains unconvinced.
I wonder how many samples have gone out to distributors? Nobody with any sense would buy a container of them without first getting a sample and testing it.
But they have no common shared networks, the distributions are not linked, that being if ten samples went out then it would be very unlikely the ten separate distributors have a method to share testing results and the factory should actually facilitate that.
Display how many went out for testing as samples and to who….then the results reviewed openly by all.
It all roots to the process in the factory and in that tagging everything and documenting everything at the factory. The ten samples should be identified with sequential VIN numbers. They should go out with complete documentations and linked to the market in a database on shared server.
In more perfect world you have a catalog that has production models and also models in development.
The status of development leads to a production model, how is that status managed, is it a process and can that process be displayed in a manner that is confidence inspiring? Inspiring to stakeholders to those that actual exist in a well defined value chain?
What defines value, it is not simple words on paper, it is arranged information that is highly functional and in that informative, it is not false promises or false claims.
These bikes are now out and I test drove one a few time in Shanghai at the "dealer", the first factory order is sold out and it will take 30 day to order one. Word on the street is Beijing received 200 units to various dealers mostly pre-orders... Shanghai is not so lucky.
Prices Range from 24,000rmb to 27,000rmb, plus tax and plate fees.
now the important stuff,
I tested the bike at Knight Rider motorcycle shop, The address is on here somewhere. Its Near Hunan lu in Pudong Shanghai off the middle ring road.
The place has a MX track in the back so I tested the bike there.
1st impression is it finally looks like a proper bike rather than the previous attempts which involved a large bike fame but tiny motor and so the dimensions were all off. For a change this bike was surprisingly tall, I am 185, 85kg and I could manage a full foot plant but it’s a stretch for anyone below 180 I would think.
The welding on the frame is passable, as a welder myself I would consider reinforcing certain areas of the sub frame but the engine mounts and major frame components look fine.
The bike is Carb’d so for us ADV guys that good news. However it is electric start with no kick start, not ideal.
Throttle housing and switches are standard M.I.C stuff nothing to complain about but nothing to get excited about.
The seat is a wider version on the usual punishing MX style seat, it seemed comfy enough.
My test bike had rear side luggage (aluminum) which is after market as well as a front crash bar which too was aftermarket.
The bike fired up after a few tries, it was a cold bike, outside in the cold and its Carb'd. After the usual warm up with the Choke engaged the bike was ready. The stock exhausts are a little loud for stock but it does remind you are on a "dirt" bike. At first I took the bike out and around the parking lot to get a feel for it, I immediately noticed that a 400cc bike is a bit underpowered for my taste. The bike had no problem nor do I think its engineering was bad it just a 600-650cc engine might be nicer for those extended bits on road riding we all end up doing... But off-road that’s a different story, we want a lighter more nimbler bike to play with in the Jungles of Laos and Thailand etc.
The bikes suspension did well to good on the track, I was rolling around the track not racing, trying to emulate real off road touring conditions, seemed to be plenty of low end torque and "grunt" so I did not feel bogged down like my 250cc mx in the mud.
Seated riding position was normal and comfortable standing on the bike the pegs were too small and the bars to low but that all easily rectifiable and besides I am on the taller side of the customer scale.
Lighting for the bike was simple and off road wise utterly useless, the addition of some spot lights from Taobao is a must.
The brakes to be honest are not the greatest on the test bike but in its defense it was a real "beater" the shop mechanics use and abuse it all day long, but even if out of the factory the brakes aren't enough that’s easy enough to upgrade and improve.
Looking at the photos I took you can see that there is a small diameter bar protecting the gauge cluster and too me it looks like a perfect starting point for a GPS mount of even a GoPro mount.
The tires that come with the bike seem to be fine for what the average user needs but for the few of us that really push of ADV stuff either better aftermarket dual sport tires are needed or bringing knobbies when the going gets tough and swapping out roadside.
That’s all I can think of right now....
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So I can't understand how it can be registered if it has a carb. My understanding was that once over 150cc the emissions would be too high and you need EFi to meet current emissions.
OK, I'll sacrifice myself and be a beta tester for Shineray. For free.
Where do I sign up? :icon10:
I do not know what is your your opinion, but I can not understand why Chinese manufacturers so often omit kickstarter (most Honda Rebel clones, Qingqi's engines, Xingyue 400, this Shineray...) - it's annoying. :frump:
http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...hanghai)/page3Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghaifingers
Haha, 27,500 RMB in cash before any Beta testing mate. :rolleyes1:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorge
I understand that its a new bike and have not been properly tested yet and buying it is a risk but i cant find anything similar to it. I need a dual sport with a big tank....600cc are too big for me, was thinking about used Honda XR250 Baja but its hard to find, only one other i can think of is Galaxy ADV 250 but i also know nothing about this bike.
Shanghaifingers thanks for your opinion, its helpful. I might just take a risk and get it since Chinese internet says that the bike is very good.....the only thing...... not worth the price.
As for the kick start, there isnt one on the bike (cant see on pictures) but here is a link to X5 engine and there is a kick start http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=...id=15992961260
Even though I wouldn't personally get the bike that's mostly because I'm not in the market for a dual sport. I am still concerned that it can't be registered because I don't understand how a single 400 with a carb can pass emissions, and I wouldn't want to be touring China unregistered.Quote:
Originally Posted by modron
If however everything is legal and OK and you get the bike it would be great to have someone's impressions after 10,000 kms. I also don't really trust any of the Chinese internet's opinions one what is or isn't a 'good bike', as any bike builder knows a bike is just a collection of parts, some 'bad' bikes can be rescued by changing a few key components others would need to be rebuilt from the ground up with all new parts.
Remains hope that the people in Shineray have the wisdom to accurately "transcribe" Honda XR 400 to their bike.