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CFMOTO has a new USA website….they will be offering the 650NK, 650TR, JETMAX and Cruz.
650NK
http://www.cfmoto-us.com/uploads/pro...4552b3748b.png
650TR
http://www.cfmoto-us.com/uploads/pro...9e0f088db4.png
Jetmax
http://www.cfmoto-us.com/uploads/pro...0713ed64b6.png
Cruz
http://www.cfmoto-us.com/uploads/pro...a44770ac28.png
CFMOTO was previously offering primarily scooters and ATV/UTV’s and also selling some models wholesale to others for re-branding, it is not clear if they plan to continue to do that, re-branding? They have dropped the smaller scooters from their line and are currently only offering two 250cc models now, one is the Cruz, which was formally know as the V5 and the other is the Jetmax.
This is good news, provided the bikes make it here! They established perceived quality from their automatic scooterbike thingies.. often for sale on Craigslist once the owners get used to riding a full size bike and ready to move up. I have never read on threads that they are bad bikes; CFMoto are now able to move newer riders onto these bikes.
Styling is good for the 650's--one can choose the sport-tourer or the street-fighter. If these can hold up in quality, and keep the price down, they should sell!
There will be an addition to the CFMoto lineup near years end, or perhaps early 2013 based on the 650 twin cycliner engine... a dual sport or adventurer style bike. Have no idea when it make it into the USA or other international markets, as one of the issues that have held CFMoto making planned delivery dates has been the share volume of production that they are trying to service both domestically and globally. Stay tuned, I'll post more information when it becomes available and when I've the time...
There are about fifty ER6-N for sale on Cycle Trader, 2009-2010 models, ranging in price from $4,500.00-$6,700.00 USD.
This is a 2009 with 2700 miles on it, asking $4.500.00
http://images.traderonline.com/img/5...mb_550x410.jpg
There are also nearly four hundred VERSYS for sale on cycle trader, 2008-2012 and those range in price from $4,500.00 to $8,199.00
This is a 2011 with 3800 miles asking $5,995.00.
http://images.traderonline.com/img/5...mb_550x410.jpg
I kind of like the Kawasaki Z1000....
http://www.kawasaki.com/FusePlayerAP...4964577243.jpg
The CFMOTO 650TR is like a smaller version of a Kawasaki Concours...
http://www.kawasaki.com/FusePlayerAP...a20f56e88a.jpg
In Australia CFmoto offers a couple of 150cc motorcycles, the Leader 150 and V-Night 150. The little water cooled 150 has 13hp.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...oto/CF-150.jpg
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...to/v-night.jpg
They also are offering the 650NK there.
http://www.650nk.com.au/
CFMoto US website has so many mistakes/misprints (typos?) that it makes me wonder: couldn't they do that one thing right?
Some stereotypes just force on themselves.
Check for yourself:
"Frame
All 650NK engines are assembled in Dust-free plant for a exquisite quality level.
The frames are welded by specialized welding manipulator which makes the frame stronger and fine-finishing.
This steel rocker arm eases the eccentricity when the bike turns at high speed.
Premium quality parts of vehicle including Manganese vanadium steel frame, RK chain from Japan and KYB shock absorber from Japan, 17 inches Radial front tire, 304 argon arc soldered muffler"
We all notice that Steve....they obviously do not, nor do they seem to realize that total motorcycle sale in the US are down, fell from 1.1M in 2008 to 450K in 2011.
That's is why I posted the links to similar models for sale....if they simply look at the MSRP of brand new they will not get their pricing correct. A 2009 ER6-N is worth more then a 2012 650NK and they better offer a better warranty as well.
That means they need to sell the units cheap to dealers....it also may be why they are not advertising an MSRP themselves? They have no clue what to sell them for.
As a CFМoto webmaster, I really apologize. I'm gonna correct it ASAP.
:icon10:
It's that "attention to detail" thing that we all want to finally see in Chinabikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
I'd not buy a bike from the website which says "Bike-bike doing doing vroooom. Orange color. Buy-buy". I'm a language teacher. In China. Every day I see Chinese people who don't like their language spoken with many-many laowai mistakes. Why'd they assume foreigners would be OK with raped English?
OK, rant over:)
Chinese price point is dependent on bargain-relationship-friends(powerful/sexy)-ability to somehow "use" each other in business context or otherwise. Too many variables. Here they don't even have price tags in shops unless it's a supermarket. You have to go and ask.
Apparently US is nothing like that. I'd ask for a price. I'd ask for a discount (if possible), but I won't spend 3 hours out there bargaining 50 USD up/down. I'm sure their pricing isn't the result of market tendencies' analysis or plain and simple competition pricing research. It's guesswork.
There really is no material difference in china for establishing retail prices, all charge as much as they can get or as much as so many customers are willing to pay. What is universal on the supply side is a lack of disclosure on the actual costs, they do not want anyone on the demand side to see the actual cost. They do not because then you can determine not only what the bike is worth, but what’s acceptable in profit, as what they as a total operation are worth, over the actual costs to get the bike to you and also stand behind it in support.
There is no fixed price at retail both markets allow haggling, its a matter of supply and demand.
What you are willing to pay and what it is really worth.
Cost plus profit equals price.
If the prices are market prices and manufacturing costs are lower then market manufacturing costs then profit is high.
Manufacturing costs, distributor costs, dealer costs sum up to total costs and each level adds their margin for their individual profit, the sum of all that is retail price.
The sales person on the sales floor of the dealership is paid on commission, they get paid on a percentage of dealer profit. So the MSRP is only a starting point for haggling and in some cases dealers raise above the MSRP or drop below the MSRP based on demand.
Right now in the market supply is high and demand is low, motorcycles do not typically sell out in the model year it is not uncommon to see last years models even two year old models. The age of the inventory reflects a weak market and prices drop to clear inventory. Dealers pay holding taxes as a function of the market they pay taxes on inventory, so holding inventory costs or adds to unit costs. That motivates them to sell them, in many ways because they need the capital back to buy more inventory to keep going.
The bikes have to have low prices and extended warranties…even then they will be difficult to sell because unfortunately your only as good as the company you keep the Chinese motorcycle industries reputation proceeds them.
On another note the bikes appear to be copies and if they are in violation of a patent of any type the whole process can be halted and held until resolved in court. That potential presents an extra risk dealers should not take, the what if is there regardless to what anyone says without real an actual formal disclosure.
In Argentina the 650NK is being offered through Keller Motos and is named a K65.
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...o/DSC_7087.jpg
In 2009 Kawasaki Heavy Industry set up an operation in Changzhou, Jiangsu. That operation manufactures engines in a joint venture with Kwang Yang Motor Co, KYMCO.
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews...rm-partnership
That was 2009 and it is now 2012.…the venture was to transfer small engine technology basically single cylinder 2-4stroke engines.
The CFMOTO 650 twin is obviously a Kawasaki design….CFMOTO operates out of Hangzhou, Jiangsu in relatively close proximity to the plant in Changzhou.
"We have confidence that Kawasaki will transfer more models to CKH in the future," says Shinichi Tamba, senior vice president of Kawasaki's Consumer Products & Machinery division.”
Obviously they did but was the technology transfer authorized. Is this this an example of industrial espionage or a licensed rights to technology?
I suppose there are only few people in the world that could answer that question with any authority?
Kawasaki moved its 650cc production to Thailand, were it already manufactures the 250 twin. So relatively speaking they are not or should not be threatened by the CFMOTO offerings, that being the cost of production in Thailand compared to China is only marginally different.
Kawasaki can offer its 250 and 650 twin competitively priced and they can expect to sell theirs for more in the market.
But I always wondered did they sell the technology to CFMOTO or perhaps they are actually selling CFMOTO a Chinese made engine they manufacture in Hangzhou? That seems not only smart but actually kind of brilliant, because any loss in profit margins on the lost sales of the Thailand made models could be gained back through the sale of the engines to CFMOTO.
But this is all conjecture on my part….I have a tendency to think in ideals. I have trouble believing that a corporation would steal a design and then attempt to market and sell it globally. I have trouble with that audacity, not in recognizing it, just in accepting it, which should be the normal and not the other way around even if it does serve your own selfish desires as an individual consumer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
Dear MJH,
Interesting conjecture. I have no dog in this hunt, so ask this only out of interest: Are the CFMoto and Kawasaki engines identical, meaning one is a clone (either licensed or a ripoff as you've hypothesized) of the other? The reviewer Alan Cathcart notes in his glowing review that the 650NK is "pretty much a direct ripoff of the Kawasaki ER-6n" but does not dwell on this and later describes the 650NK as being entirely the product of Chinese engineering. I don't know enough about intellectual property law to say whether Cathcart is just being realistic in a dog-eat-dog world or is turning a blind eye to a serious violation. It seems to me the bike is either a ripoff or an innovation; it can't really be both.
Can you give a more detailed analysis of the two twin engines -- the CFMoto and the Kawasaki -- and just how closely the one rips off the other?
Thanks!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawasaki_Ninja_650R
They are basically the same bikes just built in different factories.
By which you mean you could swap parts from one to the other, even the engine, and that the CFMoto 650NK is a clone of the ER-6n?Quote:
Originally Posted by MJH
I am asking a specific technical question, not just, "Do the bikes look alike?"
Facts, please.
thanks.
Cloning is a biological term it literally never applies to manufactured goods and the metaphor is “a dog in the fight” not a dog in the hunt.
I can not be sure if the engines are identical bet they have different metal content and engineered tolerances. They likely sourced all the part they can locally and likely outside of the Kawasaki supply chain, but with knowledge of the specification required. I would say yeah they likely could have interchangeable parts as long as the mounting point are the same, but likely are slightly varying.
The Kawasaki engine uses a 180-degree crankshaft-drive counter balancer. So does the 650NK that is just a coincidence or is that a fact?
Friend, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm trying to understand your point of view. A respected reviewer for a respected motorcycle magazine just gave this bike a very strong positive review, and suggested this might be a "game changer" as China moves up the value chain. You've countered by saying that the CFMoto 650NK and Kawi Ninja are "basically the same bike made in different factories." I respect your knowledge and views, and want to understand where you stand. If ChunFeng are cheaters and violating Kawasaki's intellectual property rights by copying the Ninja, I would think that the reviewer Cathcart would have taken a less friendly tone in his review.
Here's what I want to understand: Is the 650NK a legitimate new arrival in the global market, with the potential to change the game? Or is it an illegitimate poseur that proves that China cannot innovate, only copy and undersell the competition by cutting corners?
I have no pets in this fight, or this hunt.
cheers!
Not really a game changer, the manufacturing cost in Thailand are lower then in those in China. Kawasaki can lower its margins on the 650 line if they wish.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/...2692db5f_o.jpg
The 650 Ninja has an MSRP of $7,600 and the VERSY is at $7,800.00 in the USA.
Kawasaki has a horizontal model line based on that engine, ER6n, 650 Ninja and VERSYS.
The CFMOTO line offers the TR650 as a variant, that is interesting but hardly revolutionary.
Civil Action No. 0:10-cv-04362-JNE-AJB, the Hon. Joan N. Ericksen presiding.
Filed on Oct. 26, 2010 in the U.S. District Court for the District of Minnesota;
http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...ed-patent.html
Part of the competition; comes with battles in the courts systems. CFMOTO obviously knows that and operates for the most part at a level of legitimacy or you could say they are functioning at a level that gets a higher level of scrutiny.
It is very unlikely that they have no formal connection with Kawasaki in the development of their 650cc models, but them developing it independently is not impossible.
The CFMOTO is very similar to the Kawasaki ER-4n, in its frame, its engine appears to be same as the Kawasaki 650 engine, that Kawasaki offers in many of their models.
Here is the thing; Kawasaki has obligations to its dealer network, those are the people that buy the motorcycle before you do. They also have obligations to their shareholders, they may also think it is their company too. They have an obligations to people outside of their inner circle.
The executives can partner and share technology, but they may not have any long term investments at stake in what they are doing, the expression is the smart farmer does not sell his best seeds. They can and do often sell out and then bailout when their stock shares are highest, but if they are giving up the technology then in the long term it can and will shift the value to the other side, which current dealers and shareholders are not invested in, are they? Some can be damaged financially by the secret deals or that the executives are not doing anything when their technology just walks away.
If these bikes are private branded Kawasaki technology, then can they keep it a secret? They have to disclose it to stakeholders don’t they? That being people those that invest in them need to know that and also believe they have some exclusive right to sell their products, when they are selling the technology to others that will undercut them in the market.
There are lots of ways to steal things….some are more elaborate then others.
2013 ER-4n
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...i/ER40_Con.jpg
2012 NK650
http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/y...MOTO/650NK.jpg
Here is Kawasaki Heavy Industries annual shareholders report....
http://www.khi.co.jp/english/ir/index.html
The power sports represents 18% of sales.
Not much to do with the CF Moto / Kawasaki thing, but worth sharing (perhaps).
I was long time looking for a 3-position left hand switch for my Honda, to be able to switch off my lights (contrary to the US version I had which has the headlights always on).
As the original OEM switch costs some 120 dollar, I finally managed to get one from China (thanks to Milton, and Shineray) for far lessss.
This was however no plug-and-play, and I had to open both switches, remove the inner parts, and check cable colors to splice the new one into my existing cables.
Attachment 9007
To my very surprise, the inside of the Chinese switch was IDENTICAL to the original Honda switch, to such extend that I could remove ALL Chinese parts, and replace them with the original Japanese parts (such as push buttons, switches, indicator selector, etc.).
This was not just some fumbling, but a real 100% fit.
And that is just about a switch from a small Chinese component supplier ...
Honda more then likely pays even less then what you paid for that part, they contract a supplier and then buy the part from them. They then get the parts at a low cost, they may not care if the supplier sells the part to others as long as they can get the part for cheap. But they do get defensive when they see the parts show up as “Original Honda Parts” that being with their name and trademark on them.
Before there was a Chinese motorcycle industry, there was a Chinese motorcycle parts industry. The parts suppliers have been selling after market parts for years. As the after market sales grow then the originals go up in price. The manufacturers do that to justify the low volume sales and maximize their profit on them.
Honda has large sales in china and in that they have a large supply chain and its pretty obvious everyone is making products out of that same supply chain. The Honda supplier hand the designs off to other manufactures and in that they distance themselves as the contracted OEM supplier. The result is even though the Honda suppliers may not be selling the parts they make for Honda to others, others have the designs and are selling the exact same parts.
If it is very specific and core technology then it is not taken so lightly, they are all reluctant to develop in China now because of this scenario, but the instance with Chunfeng and Kawasaki is much bigger, obviously then a control switch, its an entire motorcycle and based on an internationally high volume sales models, basically the CFMOTO are budget version Kawasaki models.
If Kawasaki sold the technology to Chunfeng and did not disclose that transfer, then they did not disclose it because they feel it could hurt them in the market if people knew they are built with their technology. But what about dealers? What about dealers of both they are at risk there of incitements, if they do not know the technology was “legitimately transferred” there indictments will unveil that and shift value to the CFMOTO models. That shifting of value could affect the value of stocks to share holders over the long term.
What is the relationship between them?
Honda not throwing flags on a part they designed is not the same as Kawasaki playing deaf dumb and blind as the Chinese manufacturer makes their 650cc twins and sell them globally. They cannot they have to defend the patents of the corporation. If they are not then why not?
Selling copies in china is not the same as selling copies internationally, there are laws in other markets the Chinese cannot control, there are many people with vested interests it is not solely up to the executives, it can manifest in other ways, and that is investors and those are shareholders and dealers.