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1 Attachment(s)
Harley-Davidson in China
Harley-Davidson opened its first dealer in China in 2005, they now have four dealers operating nationwide (Shanghai, Beijing, Qingdao and Hong Kong). Harley reported that sales had doubled in China last year and plans to open four new dealerships this year (Wenzhou, Xiamen, Dalian and Chengdu). According to Rodney Copes, Harley’s Vice President of international sales, China is the fastest growing market for the American motorcycle manufacture. -Motorcycle.com
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
I was chatting with the manager of the Qingdao branch a few weeks ago and apparently they only have CCC certified the 1500cc and 883cc stuff. But China needs to wait a few years before the 1200cc like the XR1200 to become CCC certified.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZMC888
I was chatting with the manager of the Qingdao branch a few weeks ago and apparently they only have CCC certified the 1500cc and 883cc stuff. But China needs to wait a few years before the 1200cc like the XR1200 to become CCC certified.
I wonder if that is relative to just that branch, as I did see a sportster 1200 for sale in the shop in SH. A mate bought a 883 and I was eyeing up the 1200. Maybe they just license it as the 883 perhaps with the 1200 oversize kit added/moded after manufacture or some other little wee trick... so commonly done here ;)
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
To the best of my knowledge: All HD dealers have to do importation and type approvals by themselves, so it might depend on the area which bikes they can offer.
Doubling sales - from 20 to 40 ? :lol8::lol8::lol8::lol8:
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chinabiker
To the best of my knowledge: All HD dealers have to do importation and type approvals by themselves, so it might depend on the area which bikes they can offer.
Doubling sales - from 20 to 40 ? :lol8::lol8::lol8::lol8:
Well I know they were selling them here, at both SH and BJ stores. I saw one at SH, and actually they used to have them listed with the prices on the respective HD websites here, but now the sites have changed and I don;t think they post the prices any longer... although it's easy to work out, just take the average price for the motorcycle in international markets whether its a HD, BMW, Ducati brand and double it, that will pretty much put one in the ball park figure of what the bike will likely cost...
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bikerdoc
although it's easy to work out, just take the average price for the motorcycle in international markets whether its a HD, BMW, Ducati brand and double it, that will pretty much put one in the ball park figure of what the bike will likely cost...
Cool! The same formula works more or less in Finland.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Off topic a bit, but I know for decades many people loooove their Harleys, and naturally they are big in USA, but are they all that good a bike? Is the build quality, reliability and ride worth the premium or is a lot of it just the dream built around these things? My brother has built, repaired and raced and daily ridden big bikes of all sorts for many decades and he always said the HD was a dog, unreliable and vibrates a lot, and that perhaps the BMW but certainly the big Hondas are far more reliable.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
I heard you need to have a HD if you want to join Hell's Angels or Bandidos. I also heard that HDs have sucky brakes. But I think HD could be good chick trap.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
I think that HD have worked out all the bugs from years ago. The bikes look the same as they did years ago, but perform and are far more reliable today. I don't think that they are any better or worse than others. But it did take some international help, such as Porsche designing the engine in their V-rod a few years back. I am sure there are internal bits in other engines that were designed by consultants, too. My old next door neighbor used to be the head mechanic for the local HD dealer, and when the owner retired, got to take it over (so he moved out of this neighborhood,LOL), but he still is in the garage most of the day. He says that the reliability has improved dramatically in the past 10 years, but he is a master mechanic of these bikes, and owns the dealership, so might be a little biased. But he is a straight-forward kind of guy, so wouldn't necessarily lie to me, either. He never did carry the Buell line-up due to what he felt was questionable reliability of those bikes, for instance. I am not a big cruiser fan, although in my later years I have been more drawn to them, so haven't ruled out a HD in my later years, but for now, my budget dictates a used Japanese bike or the bike I would like to get is the Pitster Pro 250 motard.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Well I'm not really a HD fan, but only looked at the sportsters as a way to get a large capacity 100% legal bike in PRC that wasn't so ridiculously overpriced. At the time the 883cc was around 110k and 1200cc was about 130k much less than the BMW options at the time. I'm familiar with horrors of HD reliability after a few friends back home (NZ) had issues with their HD's, while the rest of us were riding. LOL. I kept in mind though that was like 15 years ago, so I'm sure HD has moved on since then and surely has more reliable products. My German friend here has had no problems with his 883cc, and has been 100% reliable on the week long rides we've been on. The one issue is the fuel tank is way too small, though both in capacity and aesthetically. When we ride he has to fill his tank way more often than the rest of us. When I sit on his bike, the tank is way too narrow for my liking, but then I'm used to a nice more rounded oval tank on the Dragstar. Though his sportster is way lighter than my 280kg Dragstar, put I prefer the shaft drive over his belt drive. Nah nah-nah-nah nah!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bikerdoc
...so ridiculously overpriced. At the time the 883cc was around 110k and 1200cc was about 130k much less than the BMW options at the time.
For readers outside the PRC who may not know renminbi exchange rates, let me put bikerdoc's important pricing comment in perspective. RMB 110k is about US$16,100 at current rates, and 130k just over $19,000. Not sure if those "low" prices are still available from China's H-D dealers, but here's about what some other bikes are costing:
--BMW G650GS with single engine made by China's Loncin RMB 150k or $21,950
--BMW R650GS twin enduro is probably RMB 175k $25,600
--BMW R800GS twin enduro RMB 190k $27,800
--Ducati Multistrada 1200, which hit Shanghai last week RMB 350k $51,200
So you can maybe understand why some of us feel the lure of a well-designed, modern Chinese bike like the JH600. A 100% luxury import tax can do that to you.
I took a bunch of pictures at the Ducati shop in Shanghai yesterday, which I can post separately. They are not flying out the door. Maybe 2 a month. BMW has two dealers in Shanghai, and sells probably fewer than 10 a month, almost all to rich Chinese guys.
http://euphonius.smugmug.com/Journal...56_cuTvJ-L.jpg
http://euphonius.smugmug.com/Journal...93_baZoW-L.jpg
As noted elsewhere, a sales guy from H-D Shanghai ***told me*** that they ARE selling a lot of tonnage -- up to 20 bikes a month, but acknowledged these too are going entirely to nouveau riche Chinese who already have a BMW R1200RT or similar (and probably also a Porsche) and want another trophy for their big garages. You almost never see these bikes on the road. I'm highly skeptical about the reported sales volumes, but stranger things have happened. Shanghai also has dealers for Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Aston-Martin, Maserati, Ferrari and Lamborghini, not to mention Porsche, Mercedes and other common luxury marques.
Shanghai's H-D dealer is out in the 'burbs but I'll try to do some reconnaissance this week, and snap some pix. Here's one sighting I made downtown a few weeks ago. This is a rain-soaked H-D Fatboy just loaded in the back of a company van.
http://euphonius.smugmug.com/Journal...96_LttCC-L.jpg
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
And to swerve further off track, prompted by my mention of Loncin Motors in the reference to the G650GS above, here's a link to an Indian journalist's blog post about a visit to the Loncin plant in Chongqing -- complete with pix of the BMW engines being produced there.
http://bikeadvice.in/visit-loncin-mo...ongqing-china/
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
These are the prices for BMW in PRC from Shanghai dealership... The prices to the left are for models without ABS where applicable and N/A means ABS isn't available for that particular model. Prices to the right side mean that particular model including ABS etc. I've also added in the US$ conversion at today's rates.
型号
Without ABS 标准车型零售价(RMB) or Includes ABS车型零售价(RMB)
G series 系列
G 650 GS* N/A or 139,000 <>US$20,358
F series 系列
F 650 GS 169,000 <>US$24,752 or 185,000 <>US$27,095
F 800 GS* 199,000 <>US$29,145 or 215,000 <>US$31,489
F 800 R* 173,000 <>US$25,337 or 189,000 <>US$27,680
F 800 ST* 199,000 <>US$29,145 or 215,000 <>US$31,489
R 系列
R 1200 R 219,000 <>US$32,069 or 239,000 <>US$34,998
R 1200 GS 255,000 <>US$37,346 or 275,000 <>US$40,275
R 1200 GS Adventure275,000 <>US$40,275 or 295,000 <>US$43,204
R 1200 RT N/A or 305,000 <>US$44,670
K series 系列
K 1300 R* 275,000 US$40,275 or 299,000 <>US$43,790
K 1300 S* N/A or 319,000 <>US$46,720
K 1300 GT* N/A or 349,000 <>US$51,113
S系列
S 1000 RR* 295,000 US$43,204 or 319,000 <>US$46,720
This is what they currently BMW Shanghai have in stock... at the moment.
R1200RT Black 361919RMB(High-End Configuration)
R1200GS Red 285000RMB(Special offer)
F800R Orange 196605RMB(High-End Configuration)
R1200R Gray 265325RMB(High-End Configuration)
The price for the Hypermotard 796 from the Shanghai Ducati dealership... is 195000RMB, and Shanghai Ducati dealership bikes are ready to be registered by end of June (Hypermotard 796 is pictured in the post from euphonius above).
My comment about the HD and my consideration is that at the time, they were one of the few foreign brands that one could purchase and plate legally in PRC that weren't ridiculously priced... I mean RMB110-130K while still out there, is far better than double to triple that for the BMW's which I for one would prefer, having owned BMW motorcycles (and still own back home). Though the BMW Loncin engined G650GS at RMB130K fits into the same pricing bracket as the HD 1200 Sportster. JH600 still seems like a worthy consideration, which I wasn't even aware of until stumbling across it.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
the mind reels........
and here's a pix of that R1200RT in black that bikerdoc mentioned is available at BMW Shanghai for a cool RMB 361,919 aka US$52,950...
http://euphonius.smugmug.com/Journal...65_RktC8-L.jpg
Is that a jacuzzi back behind the sofa?
Bikerdoc, if you'd like to have a crack at the JH600, mine's arrived in Shanghai now (jumping ahead of my narrative...), so if you find yourself in our fair city give me a shout. I hope to have it plated in 2 weeks.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
euphonius
And here are a few more pix from the Ducati shop...
Oh, and here's one for our friend sabertooth_buterfly down in Australia. We start them out early here in Shanghai. This little girl is on what we call a micro-motard.....
LOL. But you'll notice that she's riding on the footpath... but as she progresses that will change... she'll ride on both the footpath and the road, but also walk on the road too. ironically the Ducati shop front in the photo has no ramp... how useful for a motorcycle shop! :P
I'll take you up on the offer to come and try your JH out... I'd like to give the JH600 a try... hell, I'd even kit up and ride up there just to get my leg over... LOL
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
euphonius
the mind reels........
and here's a pix of that R1200RT in black that bikerdoc mentioned is available at BMW Shanghai for a cool RMB 361,919 aka US$52,950...
http://euphonius.smugmug.com/Journal...65_RktC8-L.jpg
Is that a jacuzzi back behind the sofa?
Bikerdoc, if you'd like to have a crack at the JH600, mine's arrived in Shanghai now (jumping ahead of my narrative...), so if you find yourself in our fair city give me a shout. I hope to have it plated in 2 weeks.
That's a K1200LT, a price class above the RT, still overpriced though. It has been phased out and I think the last price was 20k EUR.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Great to see you getting the girls riding at a young age, and also learning safe riding practices, it would be safer on the footpath for any rider there wouldn’t it? I just noticed the luggage caring capacity on the front, that’s not a motard that’s the enduro model.
On another note I cant imagine trying to ride something like the big ducati's in china from what I have read of the traffic and roads there would you ever get to open it up?
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
I think a lot of these super rich owners who actually have these crazily expensive bikes love the fact that there is a 100% luxury tax on them. So the fact that 99.999% of the population can't afford one probably suits them just fine, keeps their exclusivity protected. It's all about kudos, looking cool chatting on cell-phones and talking about how good their bike is. Conversations about riding techniques or where to ride are few and far between.
The more cumbersome and unusable on Chinese roads the bike is...the more the majority of Chinese riders seem to like them...every bike meeting has flocks of people around gold-wings, fat-boys etc, but bikes that would are fairly well adapted to Chinese conditions such as 400-600cc Ducati monsters, Honda CB400's etc have a much lower kudos value. If there is no place to open up even an R6 or CBR600, then why the heck buy an R1 or a 1000cc Fireblade? Surely just a waste of fuel?
A bike is just a tool, a tool to enable you to ride...........!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZMC888
If there is no place to open up even an R6 or CBR600, then why the heck buy an R1 or a 1000cc Fireblade? Surely just a waste of fuel?
Fully concur with your analysis. Frankly, I cannot imagine riding anything but a dual sport most anywhere in China, given the lack of access to expressways and the dodgy and chaotic nature of most secondary and tertiary roads. But ZMC, your signature raises some questions with respect to your comment about the appropriateness of CBRs and other big-displacement street bikes in China. Of those 11 bikes you've listed, how many are actually with you in Zibo? And what do you ride most of the time in China?
thanks!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sabertooth_buterfly
I just noticed the luggage caring capacity on the front, that’s not a motard that’s the enduro model.
Now that was a sabertoothed smackdown! LOL!! I'll never again mistake a microenduro for a micromotard, especially if the luggage is pink with a Mickey Mouse logo!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
while I agree to a certain extent here with some of the comments regards to many of the bikes that are being bought in PRC and the purposes and use for which they have been bought by certain sectors of those buyers I think there's one aspect not being given enough consideration. It is simply that if one want's to buy a quality product motorcycle that is not going to break down in the middle of gawd knows where, then there are really few limited options here. The way I see it is simple, if one likes fairly sizeable displacement motorcycles (as I and loads of others do) then what real options exist in PRC.
1. Buy a illegally imported grey market bike, that may have been stolen from HK, is landed in Shenzhen and then has either a new or copied identity. Sometimes the histories of said motrobikes can be suspect so beware! is paramount with this kind of purchase. Not exactly 100% comforting, but the positive side is that the prices are fairly realistic.
2. Buy a fully legal bike that has a well deserved reputation for build quality, reliability etc. and that limits ones options, to the likes of HD, BMW and Ducati (more are likely to follow, but until they do this is it for now). I for one would like to have many more choices, but hey there are more today than there used to be here. While these brands are expensive, at least I know what I'm going to buying.
3. Buy a Chines brand.... um big bike. Hmmm hold on just how many 600cc+ bikes are there that are made by Chinese manufacturers, um let me see... one? Seems only the JH600 fits my criteria. Now if it wasn't for sites like this and others I'd be sceptical as hell to buy such a bike.
Perhaps I have some prejudice (though I been here far too long to not see incompetence all around me, that is cleverly coated as something it is not). Like many here (Chinese and foreigners alike) most of us know the issues concerning QA/QC and all the ISO, TQM mantra that companies claim to have, but demonstrate little of, especially Chinese manufacturers. Thats partly why many Chinese will buy a foreign brand over a local brand, and can you blame them... personally I don't!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
So my point above is, while granted some people will buy some of these at times ill suited bikes for use in mainland China because of brand prestige, exclusivity etc., some will buy because they've the purchasing power to do so, something they didn't have not so long ago. Also they now have access to brands from which they were excluded and never had available only a few years back. Perhaps even more importantly, they want a quality/reliable product which they know hasn't had corners cut -there are no inferior parts etc, that will still be usable and desirable years from now, is that any different than some of us want elsewhere. At the end of the day what other choices do they have. Not many.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
well, yes, all three options basically suck. but for those of us who are not made of money or not oblivious to unacceptable risks, option 3 sucks the least, which explains my JH600.
things certainly cannot get worse (knock wood), and could get better. to wit, in category 2, there's a recent addition to BMW, H-D and Ducati. Benelli has launched in Shanghai and Beijing, courtesy of Benelli's new Chinese owner Qianjiang Motors...
Benelli China
Benelli in Wikipedia
And I heard this interesting rumor in the Ducati shop on Sunday: Chunfeng Motors, aka CFMoto.cn, is planning a dual sport with a 650cc twin. I see from their website that they run their quads on a 650. Anyone else know anything about this project? The Ducati guy seemed to think this would not be just for export, but he didn't know much else.
And surely Loncin could stretch that BMW 650 thumper IPR into what Beijing now likes to call an "indigenous innovation" and launch a fresh ride of its own. I did meet a Loncin exec out in Sichuan. Mebbe I'll give him a shout...
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bikerdoc
though I been here far too long to not see incompetence all around me, that is cleverly coated as something it is not
:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:
And I thought I was the only cynical one here... I must agree that the Cmoto industry takes incompetence to a whole new level. But, if it was any other way, we probably wouldn't want to be here. I take comfort in consistent chaos.
And regarding the topic of HD's, I just talked to a friend this morning that has 600,000 miles on his (yes six hundred thousand miles) and he's only on the second motor. Nothing wrong with Harley's :thumbsup:.
Cheers!
ChinaV
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonius
your comment about the appropriateness of CBRs and other big-displacement street bikes in China. Of those 11 bikes you've listed, how many are actually with you in Zibo? And what do you ride most of the time in China?
Euphonius the bikes on my sig are ones I've owned or long term rentals, just a list to give people an idea of my riding history. I only ride the Regal Raptor 250 here. If I had a Yamaha RD350 I wouldn't go any where near any of the rest, or maybe a ride on the 2000 Honda CB400 super four if I were taking the wife on a longer tour!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
euphonius
well, yes, all three options basically suck. but for those of us who are not made of money or not oblivious to unacceptable risks, option 3 sucks the least, which explains my JH600.
things certainly cannot get worse (knock wood), and could get better. to wit, in category 2, there's a recent addition to BMW, H-D and Ducati. Benelli has launched in Shanghai and Beijing, courtesy of Benelli's new Chinese owner Qianjiang Motors...
Benelli China
Benelli in Wikipedia
And I heard this interesting rumor in the Ducati shop on Sunday: Chunfeng Motors, aka CFMoto.cn, is planning a dual sport with a 650cc twin. I see from their website that they run their quads on a 650. Anyone else know anything about this project? The Ducati guy seemed to think this would not be just for export, but he didn't know much else.
And surely Loncin could stretch that BMW 650 thumper IPR into what Beijing now likes to call an "indigenous innovation" and launch a fresh ride of its own. I did meet a Loncin exec out in Sichuan. Mebbe I'll give him a shout...
Well I also "heard" Chunfeng aka CFMoto might manufacture a bigger engined motorbike, but as yet it appears as only a rumour. So to try to make some sense of that I have arranged a colleague to call some contact at Chunfeng to ask. I'll post back the reply later when I have the answer. It's likely that Loncin will be instrumental in manufacturing or assisting to manufacture a motorcycle powered by a 650cc single cylinder engine not too dissimilar to the one that powers the G650GS. It's not a question of if, but when. I guess we can say watch this ____________ space.
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Ah, nothing like a good motor mystery!
I'll try ringing the guys here in Shanghai at AVL GmbH, the Austrian firm that designed the JH600's thumping heart.
Click here to see AVL's contribution to the JH600
cheers!
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Re: Harley-Davidson in China
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bikerdoc
It's likely that Loncin will be instrumental in manufacturing or assisting to manufacture a motorcycle powered by a 650cc single cylinder engine not too dissimilar to the one that powers the G650GS. It's not a question of if, but when.
I am waiting keenly for that! Rotax assembled by Loncin in China is a much praised engine.