How to Ride/Drive Ones Foriegned Owned Motorcycle/Vehicle through China Un-Guided

For many attempting to a ride a motorcycle in PRC can and will be somewhat intimidating, what with language, food, and other perceived barriers real or otherwise, to mention nothing of cultural and societal norms, values, belief systems, and behaviours. For some having the support of a local guide, may well be worth the effort and expense and a fast track to enjoying the ride. For others with stronger fortitude and tenacity, riding through the middle kingdo0m without a guide makes up the adventure...

The following posts have been taken from a fellow motorcyclist (couple) who've ridden through mainland PRC unguided on foreign plated and therefore temporarily imported motorcycles. Relevant links to Laura's HUBB and Bl0g posts as well as other third parties are included. The posts are simply supplied so that others might stumble across answers to questions that a prospective rider might have regarding temporarily importing and riding through PRC. That's my agenda - plain and simple. I've no other motives, and no affiliation to Laura or anyone mentioned in the HUBB or Bl0g posts.

Riding Across (Overlanding) China: Self-Drive/Ride a foreign plated/registered motorcycle without a Guide is Possible.

After our unforgettable and blissfully unguided self-ride traverse of China (and countless requests for more details from fellow travellers (via the writers post on HUBB and bl0g) it is now time to finally introduce you to the man who made it all possible. A man willing to go to much effort in order to help fellow adventurers. http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl...on_biggrin.gif

Meet Ricard Tomas Herrero. A Spanish businessman who has been living and working in and out of China for over 20 years.

China Tierra de Aventura (F@cebook link) is his baby, sort to speak (sic), his pet project. It is not hugely known nor is it widely publicized, which is why it took me over a year to discover it even existed. It seemed that this tour company was very much an insider’s secret…one we were elated to uncover!

While Ricard has been running phenomenal motorbike trips from Madrid to Beijing every year for over a decade, this is the first time he has organised a fully independent crossing of China for overland bikers. And he’s willing to do more!

Ricard has a fantastic team of fixers spread out all over China, people ready to help and support you through the logistical issues you are bound to come across as you ride through the country. They are all just a phone call away but otherwise, you are free to ride as you wish, within certain boundaries of course. Tibet, for example, still requires a guide to be with you 24 hours a day.

Want to be among the first to ride through China on your own? Here’s your chance!

It’s important to note, however, that it still ain’t gonna be a walk in the park. It will take lots of preparation time, a substantial amount of money (still only a mere fraction of a guided tour) and much resourcefulness on the part of whoever tackles it. Support may be there, but never right next to you to translate, negotiate, argue and organize. You must still be able to tackle all that on your own. We were joined by Michael Stumman Nielsen (a motorbiking friend of ours from Denmark) and three proved to be an ideal number. As with all overlanding travel destinations, China can be quite intense, so it’s ideal to have two co-travellers to share the load and stress!

Not for the novice overlander I’d say, but if you have a few experiences up your sleeve, and don’t mind a wee challenge, then a fully independent China crossing promises to deliver a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

What’s included?
Ricard will organize all the documentation you will need. This will take a minimum of 3 months to organize. Your entry must still be guided by a local agent, who will escort you up to the first major city, where you will get a Chinese driver’s licence and vehicle number plate. You will be sent on your merry lonesome way, soon thereafter. You can have your hand held, figuratively speaking, as much or as little as you wish, depending on how confident you feel. As an example: we had ‘fixers’ escort us through the first two major cities and after that, once we realized that with a GPS and some pre-planning we could go it alone, and requested no more escorts. It worked a treat.

We may have been the very first foreign overlanders to have crossed through China legally, and independently, with our own foreign-registered vehicle. We appreciate how special this experience is and how it has the potential of revolutionizing the well-trodden overlanding route from Europe to South East Asia. No more shipments from India or Russia and no more cargo flights from Kathmandu to Bangkok. Not only is this option now a reality, but it is within the reach or even the most budget-conscious traveller.

As a token of our appreciation towards Ricard and his team, all we want to do now, is to pay it forward to fellow travellers.

Should you have any questions, before contacting Ricard for a quote, do not hesitate to contact me either though this site’s contact page or my Globetrotter Guidebook’s FB page. If you prefer to write in German, please contact Chris on Hinter Dem Horizont Links (sic).
We will be more than happy to guide you through the preparations, just as Ricard was happy to guide us through the entire process.

Happy travels through China!

Yours
Laura & Chris x

PS. Welcome newcomers! http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl...on_biggrin.gif For all who are new to my site, here is a link to my first China-crossing blog, where I detail HOW we managed to convince Ricard that a self-drive, guide-less tour would be perfectly legal. Click here for more!

PSS. Edited 10th November 2014. Please do note that I share Ricard’s email address on the last China blog. PLEASE READ the next post and the one after so you are well aware of ALL that concerns crossing China without a guide. Cheers!

Riding Across (Overlanding) China: What You Need to Know before You Go!

I received a lovely email yesterday, from a fellow overlander who referred to his own recent guided tour of China as ‘the old fashioned way’. It made me smile :icon10: Indeed, China is opening up to foreign overland tourism and although it will still be years before one can simply show up at the border, get an instant visa and just carry on; it is still lovely to think that at the very least, the REQUIREMENT to cross as part of a fully guided tour is now obsolete.

Over the past few days, since news of our independent traverse hit the virtual overlanding world, we’ve been inundated with emails from palpably excited overlanders wanting to follow suit. This is great! For the sake of good time management, however, I thought it best to write separate and more detailed blog posts about all the things Michael, Chris and I have learnt throughout our preparation and journey.
The following are details which you should know even BEFORE you contact Ricard for a quote. Please don’t hold me to them like your life depended on it! Things in China can change sporadically and swiftly, so understand that all of the below-mentioned was correct at time of print and was true for us :icon10:

Let’s get started!

K.I.S.S. (keep it simple silly!)

Although I know that many of you are experienced overlanders, I also know that there will be many reading this post who are newbies to the game. The last thing I want to do…is scare them off. So, before you go on reading all the ins and outs, I’ll give you a brief rundown of the procedure so that everyone realizes just how simple this process can be. We may have had 18 months of preparation work, but 2/3 of the time was just spent trying to find an agreeable agent. That’s now done (you are very welcome :icon10:)

Here’s all YOU need to do:

Step1: Grab a world map, decide where you want to enter and exit China and what you want to see along the way, bearing in mind that the country is HUGE. Next, decide WHEN you want to go, bearing in mind again that the best months are August, September and October.

Step 2: 6 months before your intended crossing email Ricard and outline your route & dates. He will tell you if this is a feasible plan. If it’s not (due to closed roads because of flooding or snowfall) he will recommend an alternative.

Step 3: At the same time, you should also decide where you will apply for your Chinese visa. Some places will only issue an extendable (sic) 30 day visa whilst others can issue a 3 month visa. For obvious reasons, the more time the merrier. More info on this later.

Step 4: 3 months before entering China, Ricard will ask you to submit your documentation. A detailed list of what you need is outlined below. Await confirmation from him somewhere close to your intended entry point.

Step 5: Enter China. Have a ball!

This is basically all there is to it!

Now….here’s a more detailed account of everything else you may want to know.

China independently: why you still need to go through an agent
It may now be easier than ever to traverse China without a guide…but you’ll still need to get permits to cross into the country, out of the country and for each province you wish to visit. As of now, there is no way for a foreigner to obtain these permits on their own. Perhaps one day that will change, but for the time being, only a registered Chinese travel agency can put in an application.

Legalities of an un-guided tour: why it works
As of Feb 2013 foreigners have been allowed to come into China, rent a car/motorbike/etc and drive through the country uninhibited. Moreover, although there are current restrictions in place which specifically state that foreign overlanders are to be escorted through Xinjiang and Tibet (for security reasons) there are no such official restrictions for ANY of the other provinces. Of all the 32 agencies we contacted prior to crossing, three confirmed this but only China Tierra de Aventura, (although a little reluctant initially to be the first to ‘test the waters’) decided to take on the challenge. CTA also discovered that when you DO need to be escorted by a guide, a local Chinese speaking person will suffice. He/she doesn’t have to be an ‘official’ guide or anyone working for a travel agency. Essentially, what Ricard organized for us was a team of local ‘friends’ in a few strategic places, who could meet up with us and help us find our way through a major city, a hotel, or anything else we may have needed. This worked superbly and we met some truly amazing people this way!

We chose to have ‘friends’ for the first week or so and then felt confident enough to do the rest unaided.

All other travel agencies in China don’t much care if you have an amazing time or not. They are making way too much money, charging groups $10,000 for a stressful and rather un-fun 30 day crossing of the country, so I gather it will take a while before they also join the party. Oh well…bad luck for them!

Understanding the legalities: how it works
Having said all the above, it would help if you understood a little of how China works. First of all, it’s important to realize that China is a conglomerate of 22 provinces, each boasting its own laws, restrictions and ‘strictness’, if you will. Moreover, all these laws can change at a moment’s notice if something happens and then, usually, only in the area affected.

Eg. When the Muslim Imam of Kashgar was murdered a few months ago, the government decided that all overlanding foreigners must be guidedby a military escort through Xinjiang at all times. Never mind that backpackers were catching buses without a problem; it was a random restriction placed solely on overlanders. This restriction lasted for two weeks.

Border clashes with neighbours also mean that border crossings (especially in Xinjiang) can close momentarily, re-open whenever and shut for good at very short notice. That’s just the way it is…so no matter what you have in mind, or what Ricard can organize for you, there will still be much out of his (and your) control. Go with the flow is the best tip I can give! Deal with delays, re-routes of whatevers as calmly as you can and know that ALL gets eventually resolved, in one way or another.

Will it work the same for all overlanders?
Now here’s a tricky one! When I was first asked this question, my gut instinct was to reply ‘sure, why not?’ yet I have since learnt that a fellow vagabond, on a ‘bad-ass’ camper truck had some issue recently because he was only issued a car driving licence in China and the police made a fuss because he should have had a truck licence instead. So my answer now is: ‘You’ll need to ask Ricard!’ From what I know, motorbikes and cars are same same, but I never thought to ask if there would be issues with larger overlanding vehicles. Best ask him.:icon10:

What will your permits include?
Permits for your vehicle for each individual province you wish to cross as well as permits for the specific borders you wish to use. You will also get a Chinese driver’s licence and vehicle number plate at the first major city past the border. You’ll need to organize your own Visa just BEFORE Ricard puts in your application, as your permits must include your visa number.

We copied all our permits (38 pages in total) and also had them translated by a lovely Chinese speaking traveller we met. We wanted to understand exactly what they said. They went so far as to specify cities along our route and how much time we were allowed in Xinjiang Province.

Preparation Time & documents needed
Have all of the following ready long before Ricard asks you to submit them. The application process takes about 12 weeks.

• copy of your passport
  
• copy of your Chinese Visa
  
• copy of your driver’s licence
  
• copy of your vehicle’s last inspection report
  
• copy of your vehicle’s registration
  
• vehicle details (make/model/colour/rego/chassis number/engine number/year of manufacture)
  
• photo of your vehicle, against a white background, of each side
  
• photo of you, against a white background-headshot (do not wear a white T-shirt or you’ll be rejected!)

Cost
I am very reluctant to mention the price the three of us paid to cross China, for one main reason: I’d hate for anyone to hold Ricard (and China Tierra de Aventura) to one specific price, when I know that it can fluctuate depending on how many people are crossing together and, more importantly, which borders they use and provinces they intend to transit. Yes…some borders are more expensive than others, just like some province permits are cheaper. If you are serious about a China crossing, and have done at least some research, you’d know that a 30-day guided tour costs about $10,000 if you go it alone, and less if you can find other vehicles to join your group and share the costs of the guide. Suffice it to say that, for obvious reasons, driving independently will cost much less PLUS it’s the same price whether you stay one month or two!

Time Limit in China
Vehicle permits expire after 2 months and can’t be renewed, so 8 weeks is the maximum amount of time you can stay in China with your own vehicle. I would strongly suggest, if you can, to get a 3-month visa in advance. We could only obtain a 30 day visa in Kyrgyzstan and had to rush to get it renewed in Shangrila (where we got a further 30 days). If you can save yourself that hassle it will be well worth your while.

Restrictions
Once you work out a feasible route with Ricard, he will apply for your permits and will specify the places you want to visit and roads you want to take. These details will be outlined on your permits.

NB. You MUST stick to your permitted route and can’t be found wandering off too far. Sure…if there is a temple, lake or attraction 50kms off-course it’s fine, as long as it doesn’t entail crossing into a province for which you have no permit. That’s the biggest no-no!

Although this takes away the freedom to simply change your course as the wind takes you, we found it to be totally fine. If there was a place we wanted to see, but was not on our permit, we simply parked up the bikes in a hotel/guesthouse for a couple of days and visited by bus instead. This was also a lovely way to break up the bike riding VS touristy days. Consider including as many places as you can on the itinerary you send to Ricard, so as to give you even more freedom of movement. Of course, the cost will increase with each new province you add to your list.

Keep in mind that if you do travel with mates, you will be bound to travel with them the entire time, together. Permits will still treat you as a ‘group’ so you are not allowed to ride alone or cross in or out of the country at different times if the permits are issued to you all as a group. All for one and one for all it is!

Trust the man!
No matter what anyone says (including me!) the only person you should only ever listen to is Ricard. If he says that, for whatever reason, you MUST be escorted by a guide for a particular stretch, then don’t fight the man…but trust him. He’s the only one who knows what’s going on at the time of your crossing and, most importantly, you should know that he has your best interest at heart. All he wants to do is help out fellow overlanders. We all know that every now and then, when travelling, one comes across a pure gem, one of those rare, genuine human beings who just want to help others. Ricard is one of those people. Just trust.

Should you still team up with others?
As I mentioned previously, Chris and I were joined by our motorbiking friend Michael for this traverse. We reasoned that three would be a safe bet: an extra buddy at hand in case of an accident or any trouble can be advantageous, yet any more and we’d increase the possibility of attracting unwanted attention by the police. Although you are in every right to travel unguided through China, it’s safe to assume that it will take years before local authorities get used to seeing large numbers of independent foreign overlanders. For the time being, we suggest you keep a low profile, as we did, and keep numbers to a minimum. We were never stopped, questioned or harassed. Naturally, it is much easier for two or three heads to lay low, rather than 12.

Moreover, one of the main contributing forces behind our insistence to go it alone was that we did not want to travel for two months with half a dozen other overlanders whom we did not know. Travelling 24/7 with the love of your life can be challenging enough! The last thing we wanted was to deal with 12 people, 36 personalities and 1001 different opinions. Personally, I’d say ‘look for a travel partner if you are alone but don’t worry about it if you’re a couple’. You’ll be alright.

Exactly how difficult was it, in the end?
Most of the stress associated with our crossing was due to our own personal uncertainties and insecurities. Due to the fact that we had not known anyone to do this before, we were never really sure of what to expect. For the first week we were riding somewhat on tender hooks. Would we be stopped after 5kms of alone travel? Will the police hassle us despite having all our docs in order? What if we get arrested??!!

What if something goes wrong?
In retrospect, the ‘business’ of crossing into and through China was no more difficult than many other countries we have visited. If you have ever gone through the rigmarole of traversing Lake Nasser from Sudan to Egypt (or vice versa) you may also find it all a walk in the park, by comparison.

If you have experiences dealing with highly bureaucratic countries then let us assure you that you will have no problems. If you have never overlanded outside of developed, western countries then sure, China may not be the best place to start. However, as I’m one to dive into the deep end of things, I think China would be actually the ideal first major overlanding experience. Get this under your belt and you will certainly be ready to take on the world! :icon10: Moreover, China isn’t exactly just around the corner for most of us: if you can make it to one of its outer borders it means you have travelled far and experienced lots! Be confident that you can handle it well and you will.
I bid you farewell now from tropical Laos and see you soon with another post: ‘what you need to know once you are IN China’

Sabaidii!
Laura x

PS. You can contact Ricard either through the CTA FB page or directly via email (rtomas@chinatierradeaventura.com). Please note that Ricard travels extensively and may be offline for extended periods of time. I know, from experience, that he will always reply to emails…it may just take a couple of weeks at times!

Riding Across (Overlanding) China: What You Need to Know when IN China

Hi again everyone, hope this finds you well, happy and (half-way) informed about the ins and outs of overlanding in China independently. With this post I hope to answer all the remaining questions you may have about your own adventurous escapade through the fascinating Middle Kingdom http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl...icon_smile.gif

Before I go into greater details about crossing China, I wanted to take a moment to answer three very, very important questions I am still receiving on a daily basis.

1) Can you cross Tibet unguided? ***TIBET AND XINJIANG PROVINCE ARE STILL UNDER GUIDE RESTRICTIONS***
You will still absolutely and unequivocally need a guide with you for these two provinces. I thought I was clear in my previous post but obviously I was not http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl...s/icon_sad.gif

Whilst Tibet is pretty constant and no-one envisages the restriction there to end any time soon, the situation in Xinjiang is a little murky. Guidelines here fluctuate sporadically depending on the latest ethnic clashes. Ricard will tell you what restrictions apply at the time of YOUR crossing.

2) How much can you expect to see during your trip?
China is absolutely HUGE so you should be realistic about just how much of the country you can visit. Two months is still the maximum time allowed by all your vehicle permits, so you must plan accordingly.

I’ll be the first to admit that Chris and I travel at snail-speed compared to 99% of fellow overlanders. On average, we cover a distance of 1,000kms a month. Nevertheless, a traverse of China is a mammoth task even for the speediest of Gonzaleses! One of the major turn offs of a standard 30-day guided tour (in the past, many overlanders on a very tight budget booked an even SHORTER tour, i.e. 14 days for 7500km, in order to save on the guide’s daily fee), is the incessant need to travel 400, 500 or 600km every single day in order to follow a set itinerary. That’s just insane! On top of the kilometres, one must find time to sightsee, absorb the atmosphere, learn a little of the culture, chill out with locals and, of course, eat and sleep. What usually ends up happening is that all that one does is eat, sleep and drive. That’s it.

If for whatever reason you only have a month to cross China when driving independently, then – sorry to say this – but your itinerary will STILL feel as rushed as on a guided tour. The benefit of an unguided self-drive however, is that you can extend your visa by an extra month for only $20, double your time and halve your speed! THIS is what makes it priceless.

**Our story: we entered China from Kyrgyzstan at the Torugart Pass border, and exited at the Mohan border into Laos. We covered 7,500kms in 8 weeks BUT over 5,000km of that was in the first month alone. This was due to the fact that the first place on our route where we could easily get a visa extension was Shangrila in the south-west. The ride from Xinjiang to Yunnan Province in such a short time was tough and felt rushed, even though we had no guide to push us onwards…we had to push ourselves! Of course, having a whole month to explore Yunnan Province, considered by many to be the most beautiful, was just bliss in the end http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl...icon_smile.gif **

If you have the chance to get a 3 month visa than DO so and avoid having to rush to the first city where you can get a visa extension. Note that you can’t extend in every major city! If you can only get a 30 day visa like us, then ask Ricard about extension options along your intended route and choose wisely!

3) Why are we doing this (what’s in it for us)?
When I first received this question I was a little put off. I thought it was obvious: doesn’t everyone have the same travel philosophy of ‘paying it forward’ as we do? Perhaps not…
Chris and I have, between us, a combined travel history spanning 28 consecutive years (18 for him, 10 for me) If we have learnt anything in the last few decades it’s that as overlanders, we get NOWHERE without help, advice and counsel from those who have come before us. Yes of course you can be a pioneer in a certain country but how blissfully easy is it when someone has done it before and can give you some hints? I love unpredictability and adventure as much as the next globetrotter…but not when it comes to logistics and bureaucracy. Those are two things I wish to spend as little time and effort on, as I possibly can.

We have both certainly benefitted from other’s help innumerable times, so we see our China crossing success as a chance to ‘pay it forward’. We just want to give something back.

(PS. On this note…if anyone has any info about how we might be able to get our 650cc motorbikes into Vietnam WITHOUT a guided tour, please message me! http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl.../icon_wink.gif )

And there is one more reason why I am so keen to get all this info out there and shared. Ricard, as I have mentioned before, is an extremely successful businessman who runs about half a dozen companies simultaneously. He runs his China touring business almost as a hobby. He’s not in it for the money or the glory…he’s a die-hard adventure motorbiker who loves nothing more than to help out fellow travellers, that’s all. What I fear, however, is that if he is inundated with countless requests and questions (half of which are sent merely out of curiosity rather than serious intent) he may just shut up shop and consider it all too much hard work. This would be a tragedy for the overlanding world! We’ve just managed to find ONE agent happy to open up China to us…let’s not scare him off!

So, lovely peeps, it looks like you’re stuck with me for the time being! Ah!

IF, after reading ALL my posts about China, you are still unsure of HOW it all works, then please message me, OK? When you are ready to receive a quote and make your plans, then go ahead and email Ricard. Now let’s get show on the road…here are the most important things to consider once you are IN China.

1) Get a local SIM card
Your first order of business, once you have successfully crossed the border into China, will be to while away a whole day at the Traffic Authority Offices of the nearest city, getting your driver’s licence and vehicle number plates. You will be with a local agent for this part, so you won’t have to do much except get a little bored. Your second priority will be to get a local SIM card for your mobile phone. This is imperative to keep in touch with Ricard and anyone else you’ll meet (and need assistance from) along the way. There are several companies to choose from; we found UNICOM to be sufficiently good. We paid 100RMB (about $16) for a month’s unlimited use.

2) Don’t think of China as one nation with uniform regulations
Each province (there are 22 in total) is an entity onto itself with its own regulations. They care only about what happens within their invisible borders, so in effect it makes China, as a whole, a rather lawless country. What does it mean for you? That it doesn’t really matter what Beijing says or your paperwork states, if you find an asshole policemen who thinks you should pay a fine or fee for this or that, then HE is the only one you must convince to let you go. He is the law, or at least he is as long as you are standing in front of him. This is not especially unique: many, many countries operate like this around the world. If you’ve ever been on a road-trip through Africa, Russia or parts of Central America, you will know what I’m talking about.

3) You can pretty much ignore the police. Everyone else does
As a Westerner we are quite used to showing respect and reverence to police men and women. In China, that is an almost laughable concept. We’ve seen people speed over the limit, make illegal turns and do whatever on earth they wanted right in front of patrol cars, without suffering an iota of repercussion. No matter how ‘fearful’ you may be thanks to our own western media’s perception of China’s authoritarian rule, let us tell you that the reality is quite different. China is an enormous country with over 1.3 billion people. There is no government on earth that could ever reign over the whole lot with an iron fist. From a visitor’s point of view, this would have to be one of the most relaxed countries I have ever experienced. People seem to do whatever they please, wherever and whenever they want to do it. It’s totally bizarre and it was a lovely surprise!

By law, motorbikes are not allowed on highways (I think Laura is referring to Epressways here), yet we found this to be an overlooked restriction in every province we crossed except for Yunnan. Bikes, scooters, donkey carts and herds of cows use the highway (again this should read Expressway) constantly, simply bypassing the toll gates on the curb-side. Even the cows do this, it’s so crazy!

After the first few days, when we realized this was happening (we saw everyone entering and exiting) we simply followed suit. The only time we ever got yelled at was by the side of a toll booth in Yunnan, near the city of Kunming. We just waved hello, kept riding, and took the first exit off the highway. Perhaps they are stricter in certain areas, we don’t know for sure. Actually, for all we know the toll-booth lady could have just been calling us over for a photo…that’s always possible in China http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl.../icon_wink.gif

Of course, this does not mean that the penalties for causing an accident would not be severe.

4) Chinese authorities are really not all that efficient
Whilst you’re starting to get a clearer (I hope!) picture of how China works, it’s also wise to remember that the Chinese may be a bureaucratic lot, but they never came across as overly officious. Every single time a policeman or border guard was faced with three foreign motorbikers who spoke no Chinese and played dumb, they soon gave up trying to ask us questions and just let us carry on. Personally, I think that they just did not know what to do with us and wanted no hassles themselves. This translated to no hassles for us J

5) Surprisingly, you may have an easier time WITHOUT a guide
On this point, I wager a guess that travelling WITHOUT a local guide was to our benefit. The only true issue we had was when we tried to cross the border into Laos. The guard requested a $500 exit fee (WTF?) and argued for hours. Of course he could only argue because he had someone with whom to argue, namely a local agent who was sent to assist us, even though we had insisted on going it alone. Had we not been accompanied, I think we would have been let through much faster. There is also a chance we simply got unlucky on our last day and scored a dodgy border guard.

6) Be prepared for last minute changes/restrictions/conditions etc
The fact that China is essentially a conglomerate of different laws means that no two country crossings will ever be the same. YOUR situation, YOUR price and YOUR restrictions will very much depend on where you enter China, where you want to go and where you wish to exit. It will also depend on what is happening at the time in the provinces you wish to cross. I’ll give you our example: we wanted to cross into China from Kyrgyzstan and exit into Laos. We wished to take the southern route, along the Tibetan Plateau and well away from all major cities. Due to the ethnic tensions in Xinjiang just a few weeks prior to our entry, the local authorities were quite strict. We had to be at a specific border crossing on a specific date, meet a specific fixer there, and exit the province of Xinjiang again on a specific date at a specific provincial border post. It made no sense, really, but it mattered not: these were the conditions imposed upon us when we put in our application through Ricard, and that’s what we had to do. If you happen to get a different person processing your application, then you may get a different set of rules (and price!) to adhere to. That’s China. No hard and set rules for all; just whatever the guy who processes your application feels he needs to do.

No matter what, understand that things can change at the last minute (for whatever reason) and you will just have to adapt.

7) Steer clear of well known, touristy hot spots
As I mentioned in my previous posts, the three of us did not visit any of the internationally renowned places of interest in China. We did not ride to Beijing or Shanghai, did not visit the pandas (still sobbing!), the terracotta army, the Great Wall blah blah blah. We did none of that and chose to spend most of our time traversing remote wilderness areas instead. Firstly, because that’s what we actually love most and, secondly, because we figured that as long as we kept away from big crowds and big cities, then we’d potentially have fewer problems.

We spent 6 out of 8 weeks riding through the countryside which, by the way, changed dramatically in every province. Only during the last fortnight did we join the ‘tourist trail of Southern Yunnan. It is here that we met the first westerners on our trip, and here is where our experience changed. It was great to eat a hamburger and speak English with fellow nomads, but the “mystique” we had encountered for a month and a half had suddenly disappeared.

China has many big attractions, granted, but major cities and places of interest might be best done on a back-packing trip, and not whilst driving a foreign registered vehicle. Due to our “nature-first” itinerary we also never, EVER, felt like we were in a country with a gazillion people. We bush camped for 42 out of 60 days, in insanely picturesque spots…by rivers, lakes, forests, plains and behind sand dunes. It was pure magic in that regard. If you want to read more about our nature-filled trip, then click here

8) Never feel intimidated
Experienced overlanders know that foreign police or army guys are very much like grizzly bears: they can smell fear a mile away. Chinese police are no different. From the moment we took hold of all our paperwork and tucked it away with our Chinese driver’s licence and number plates, we knew that we had every right, legally, to be riding unguided through the country. We acted like that too, never faltered and never faced any problems.

(Extra hint: the Chinese are about the least aggressive or intimidating people I have EVER come across. We found them to be polite and quite submissive, especially when faced with tall, strapping Westerners. Of all the ‘authorities’ I have ever met, they would have to be the least scary. Trust me…I’m a short-ass!)

Believe it or not…I think that’s it!

Really? Could it be that I’ve told you everything? Well I think so, I really do… I’m quite sure you can fill in the rest on your own now.

I wish you a fantastic time planning your trip and discovering this incessantly fascinating country. Proceed with just a little caution, and much common sense and we know you will have an equally priceless experience. And now off you go to conquer China!

Travel safe and happy (and don’t forget to pack two spare petrol canisters http://laurastraveltales.com/wp-incl.../icon_wink.gif )

Ciao for now
Laura x

PS. You can contact Ricard either through the CTA FB page or directly via email (rtomas@chinatierradeaventura.com). Please note that Ricard travels extensively and may be offline for extended periods of time. I know, from experience, that he will always reply to emails…it may just take a couple of weeks at times!

Be interested in what your link to these people are bikedoc but there are some glaringly false statements in this post ie

" 3) You can pretty much ignore the police. Everyone else does
As a Westerner we are quite used to showing respect and reverence to police men and women. In China, that is an almost laughable concept. We’ve seen people speed over the limit, make illegal turns and do whatever on earth they wanted right in front of patrol cars, without suffering an iota of repercussion. No matter how ‘fearful’ you may be thanks to our own western media’s perception of China’s authoritarian rule, let us tell you that the reality is quite different. China is an enormous country with over 1.3 billion people. There is no government on earth that could ever reign over the whole lot with an iron fist. From a visitor’s point of view, this would have to be one of the most relaxed countries I have ever experienced. People seem to do whatever they please, wherever and whenever they want to do it. It’s totally bizarre and it was a lovely surprise!"

Ok i didn't read it all but there was a section on Xin jiiaanng and the big T but I can assure you ignore the powers that be in far western provinces at the moment you will get a surprise and it won't be lovely.Basically that staement is from someone who realy has no idea about China and has possibly ridden through it many years ago probably 15 years ago." There is no government on earth that could ever reign over the whole lot with an iron fist." so this guy rode through China and came up with that emm must of flown over the Big T and X.

"After our unforgettable and blissfully unguided self-ride traverse of China (and countless requests for more details from fellow travellers (via the writers post on HUBB and bl0g) it is now time to finally introduce you to the man who made it all possible. A man willing to go to much effort in order to help fellow adventurers.

Meet Ricard Tomas Herrero. A Spanish businessman who has been living and working in and out of China for over 20 years.

China Tierra de Aventura (F@cebook link) is his baby, sort to speak (sic), his pet project. It is not hugely known nor is it widely publicized, which is why it took me over a year to discover it even existed. It seemed that this tour company was very much an insider’s secret…one we were elated to uncover!

While Ricard has been running phenomenal motorbike trips from Madrid to Beijing every year for over a decade, this is the first time he has organised a fully independent crossing of China for overland bikers. And he’s willing to do more!

Ricard has a fantastic team of fixers spread out all over China, people ready to help and support you through the logistical issues you are bound to come across as you ride through the country. They are all just a phone call away but otherwise, you are free to ride as you wish, within certain boundaries of course. Tibet, for example, still requires a guide to be with you 24 hours a day.

Want to be among the first to ride through China on your own? Here’s your chance!"

Emm seen a few companies offer this amazing opportunity for a small charge ie around the $30K-$50k mark get your own bike to starting point but we can help you out on that for another small charge. funny enough very few if any provide this tour year on year especially if there coming from eastern europe/europe. Buyer beware.

"China Tierra de Aventura (F@cebook link) is his baby, sort to speak (sic), his pet project. It is not hugely known nor is it widely publicized, which is why it took me over a year to discover it even existed. It seemed that this tour company was very much an insider’s secret…one we were elated to uncover!"

Warning bells warning bells.

"While Ricard has been running phenomenal motorbike trips from Madrid to Beijing every year for over a decade, this is the first time he has organised a fully independent crossing of China for overland bikers. And he’s willing to do more!"

emm first Iv'e heard about it( so he had to cross into China so from where) and i made some calls to the powers that be and they have never heard of the company or the man passing through the Big T or X but maybe some people on MCM who have heard of these tours travelling through China for over ten years.

So his last post on FB were 2012 and 2009 says it all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

Warning bells warning bells.

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Not only them will be ringing, your ears will as well and they might bleed from listening....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

...these tours travelling through China for over ten years.

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There have been tours from China (Shanghai) to Spain with them "glorified CJ sidecars" and to the BMW Motorrad Days in Germany (Garmisch-Patenkirchen) with Beemer bikes arranged by the Spanish bloke in the past.

Ride safe, Gong Xi Fa Chai!!!! Pal

ps: you pay your $$$$'s to the travel / tour organisers like NAVO and anything goes.... no secrets ~ no dramas....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pal

Not only them will be ringing, your ears will as well and they might bleed from listening....



There have been tours from China (Shanghai) to Spain with them "glorified CJ sidecars" and to the BMW Motorrad Days in Germany (Garmisch-Patenkirchen) with Beemer bikes arranged by the Spanish bloke in the past.

Ride safe, Gong Xi Fa Chai!!!! Pal

ps: you pay your $$$$'s to the travel / tour organisers like NAVO and anything goes.... no secrets ~ no dramas....

---

Emm NAVO pay your very very big dollars a company with strong guangxi well up until it all changed a couple of years ago. Bet they were pissed.Oh well back to the ???

新年快乐

Yep Laura after one riding trip through China is now another China expert Quote form her post on the HUbb "Hi RideChina,

Thanks for the offer of help and support, this would certainly be of great help to very many overlanders.
Yet what would be of even greater help, is if you could do some research and strive to offer independent self-drive tours. This is what everyone is in need of, more than anything else. Travelling through China without a guide.

If our permits distinctly stated that we could drive independently (hence, no guide needed), then surely you can also organise that for others.

Yes I understand the whole concept of 'responsibility' in China. Just last year an agent went to jail because he rented a motorbike to a foreigner without the proper paperwork. The foreigner had an accident and perished, and the agent was held responsible. I understand this onus of responsibility is probably the biggest hurdle to get over, yet I believe that if you go through the right channels the risk is severely diminished.

What would be fantastic, is if there were more agencies willing to explore the option of independent travel which, I'll stress again, is allowed by law.
All the very best
Laura"

"I'll stress again, is allowed by law." obviously in China the law is binding and every person in power never deviates off the law and one gov employ gives the same response as the next. Pfft.

Yes Damo, this thread is a real worry. This is the problem with China, one successful trip across it can make someone believe that there are is some kind of predictable outcome for every trip. China is an odd place, you can be beaten or even killed for being a foreigner or other times loved and treated incredibly well. The things you did had zero to do with the way you were treated, those attitudes all reside within the heads of the locals you meet, their potential behavior is unfathomable to everyone including them.

There is no logic to travelling in China, it's hard to understand from a logical western point of view. For example, if I drop sodium into water it will explode, if you do it it will explode too, if anyone else does it, the same result will occur. Travelling across China absolutely does not work like that, each trip could have a wildly outcome, like a different experiment each time.

"C’mon! We saw a Tibetan Mastiff outside a Tibetan temple!."

Hey everyone,

It's Laura here, the author of the blog posts which have seemingly been torn to shred here on this thread ;)
While you've all been rather busy doing that, my partner and I have found yet another agency willing to help overlanders (with any vehicle) cross through China independently and without a guide.
We met Hendrick, the gentleman who runs Tibetmoto, a couple of months ago in Lao and he was quite interested in trying to offer the same deal as ChinaTierradeAvventura. Here are their prices:


Costs for motorcycles (no guide):

1 motorcycle (solo travel): 3.980, – EURO

2 motorcycles: 2.150, – EURO per motorcycle

3 motorcycles: 1.580, – EURO per motorcycle

4 motorcycles: 1.355, – EURO per motorcycle

Costs for larger groups upon request! We will gladly assist you in the search for additional participants

Rest of info on my this blog post (I do this to facilitate sharing of info on various forums)
http://laurastraveltales.com/travel-...-china-take-2/

As for me, I never once claimed that anything about this process would be predictable or easy...it was meant to be an incentive to anyone who is genuinely interested in crossing China independently, to roll up their sleeves, put in some work and sort something out for themselves. it took me 18 months to secure my deal, yet others simply expect it to be served on a silver platter.
So...while countless overlanders have been moaning, complaining and criticising, we found yet ANOTHER alternative.
In the end, as always, our aim is to facilitate overland travel for everyone. We are all just one big family and if we don't help each other out and share info...then we're missing the whole point.
I wish you all happy, exciting and most of all safe riding.
Cheers

What happened to Ricard

"No matter what anyone says (including me!) the only person you should only ever listen to is Ricard. If he says that, for whatever reason, you MUST be escorted by a guide for a particular stretch, then don’t fight the man…but trust him. He’s the only one who knows what’s going on at the time of your crossing and, most importantly, you should know that he has your best interest at heart. All he wants to do is help out fellow overlanders. We all know that every now and then, when travelling, one comes across a pure gem, one of those rare, genuine human beings who just want to help others. Ricard is one of those people. Just trust."

Actually I be wary of listening to Ricard he is getting another company to get you in and out of China. I can organise people to maybe get you through the big X can't guarantee that is going to happen all depends on what is going down there at the time.

Copping abit of heat over your friend "Ricard "charges on other forums. At least be up front how much Ricard charged you.As one other person said $33K is abit steep. But that is about the norm despite what your new found Laos/German friend says.

Ricard by any chance also likes the $$$$$$.

OH by the way Laura "As for me, I never once claimed that anything about this process would be predictable or easy"

yeh you did telling one Chinese tour operator

"If our permits distinctly stated that we could drive independently (hence, no guide needed), then surely you can also organise that for others."

after then saying

"Yes I understand the whole concept of 'responsibility' in China. Just last year an agent went to jail because he rented a motorbike to a foreigner without the proper paperwork. The foreigner had an accident and perished, and the agent was held responsible. I understand this onus of responsibility is probably the biggest hurdle to get over, yet I believe that if you go through the right channels the risk is severely diminished."

Gee don't you might think some "agents" are a touch nervous not because of this but many others foreigners coming to China and paying their big or small money and seeing their guests getting into conflict(ain't hard to do) with the locals.

Welcome to the forums Laura suggest you read some of the posts here. There is a wealth of knowledge from people on here about riding in China but I'll give you the gist of it. It is getting harder not easier to ride in China much to the disdain of most people on this forum.

Was you not the guy Bigdamo last year when someone posted about a tie up between CFMotor and KTM in China you said "No Way" and you accuse the guy of talking out of his asshole !!
You must look a fool now mate !! So why should I believe anything you say! IMO

Nuff said.............

Hello bigdamo,

We paid 2000 euros each per bike, travelling in a group of 3, crossing into China from the Kyrgyz border and out into Lao 60 days later. All done by Ricard. The price was cheaper than offered by anyone else. TIBETMOTO is offering a yet cheaper option still.
But it matters not, does it? It doesn't matter what I paid in August 2014...all that matters is what YOU would paid if YOU were interested in crossing China at whatever specific time. Except perhaps you're not. You seem well content to offer criticism but offer no constructive contributions which may help anyone who actually is intending to cross through China.

The law is what it is. Not a single mention of a guide for any Chinese province except Tibet an Xinjiang. Telling a Chinese agent to up his game and look into the possibility of offering independent travel for foreigners does not, in any way, suggest it would be 'easy'
I disagree wholeheartedly about China. It is and will continue to get easier for foreign overlanders to negotiate a crossing. At least as long as there are plenty of people who work their butts off trying to find a way in and out, legally. Those very same who then pass on any info they have to help others.
If there are any foreigners getting into conflict with locals, it would be very much the foreigner's fault and problem. We encountered nothing but courteous, hospitable and lovely people, in each and every province. We behaved respectfully, of course, we were their guests after all.

So...unless you are willing or interested in contributing in a positive manner, may I suggest you leave the info for those who are?

I don't really want to defend Bigdamo, I don't agree with everything he said but I'll be honest......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laura73

We paid 2000 euros each per bike, travelling in a group of 3, crossing into China from the Kyrgyz border and out into Lao 60 days later. All done by Ricard. The price was cheaper than offered by anyone else. TIBETMOTO is offering a yet cheaper option still.

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Fact is that 6000 euros is a great deal of money, even if it's cheaper than other companies. Chinese drivers can cross into other countries as they see fit, but others cannot drive in and out without tons of expense and red tape. This is one sided BS. If the government and companies keep making money out of this it is much less likely to ever end. As with ransom demands when you pay the hostage takers you set in motion the next hostage taking. My opinion and many others is it is better not to play this game at all.

Maybe you feel you have been treated very well by Ricard, or maybe you do have some affiliation, or maybe you are just trying to inform other riders. mychinamoto.com isn't really the place as it consists largely of riders inside China and people who are discussing Chinese motorcycles. The HUBB would honestly be a better place. Posting this information is informative, but in all honesty the 'price list' goes a bit too far and looks like a paid ad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laura73

I disagree wholeheartedly about China. It is and will continue to get easier for foreign overlanders to negotiate a crossing. At least as long as there are plenty of people who work their butts off trying to find a way in and out, legally. Those very same who then pass on any info they have to help others.

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Hmm, things are getting easier? Maybe in regards to Myanmar, and other countries, but to suggest China too, really not sure about that. Even changing money, extending a driving license, selling or buying property, registering a motorcycle in your own name are all far harder for foreigners than for local Han Chinese in China. It's in fact a multi-tiered system where your ethnicity dictates your status, not legally so much as procedurally. Being Urgur, white, black or Tibetan will see things being easier or harder to do and give you different rights and status.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laura73

If there are any foreigners getting into conflict with locals, it would be very much the foreigner's fault and problem. We encountered nothing but courteous, hospitable and lovely people, in each and every province. We behaved respectfully, of course, we were their guests after all.

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In China you will absolutely meet courteous, hospitable and lovely people, in each and every province. This is the overwhelmingly the most likely thing that will happen. However you could be attacked beaten or killed in China. If you meet the wrong group or gang at the wrong time, it would be nothing that you've done. In fact it could be the behavior of another previous group of foreigners or other political fanaticism or other unknowable reason that can cause problems. I've had friends attacked in China for doing nothing wrong and not behaving badly. Thankfully it's very rare, but still worth bearing in mind.

Thanks Bikerdoc and Laura73.
I always find it very useful to hear others' experiences riding here in the middle kingdom. After 10 years here, I completely understand how things can change from day to day but agree that the more people do it, the easier it should become. I have definitely seen some things become easier for me. Please know many of us enjoyed your insight even if we have had differing experiences. This is what these forums were originally for and I am glad to see people trying to return to constructive input even if I do not agree. Non constructive input is basiclly whining or the result of bitterness that is sad. I put this non constructive input into the appropriate file as I know many others do. Again, thanks for the input as it can never hurt to hear how others have successfully accomplished things here in China.

Quote:

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mychinamoto.com isn't really the place as it consists largely of riders inside China and people who are discussing Chinese motorcycles. The HUBB would honestly be a better place. Posting this information is informative, but in all honesty the 'price list' goes a bit too far and looks like a paid ad.

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Sorry but I total disagree with you on this point MCM is about chinses bike and riding in China and or how to do it so the thread IMO is very appropriate to people reading post on MCM

Hi everyone,

First of all...no, I am not 'affiliated' with any agency at all, I'm just a long term traveller (11 years on the road and counting) who appreciates receiving info/tips along the way, so I simply pay it forward. That's all. I was not the one who originally posted the China crossing info on this page, but was alerted to it by a fellow traveller and wished to set the record straight. If anyone finds the info useful...GREAT!!...if not, let it die in your forum thread bin.
I could start rebutting claims or stating (for the 1,000th time) that the Chinese government is the one who sets payment for permits yadda yadda yadda...6000 euros is a lot of money for three bikes but STILL cheaper than it used to be blah blah blah
But I'm done here.
You have the info, do with it what you will.
i wish you all very safe and happy travels, as always.

Thank you Laura73

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laura73

Hi everyone,
First of all...no, I am not 'affiliated' with any agency at all, I'm just a long term traveller (11 years on the road and counting) who appreciates receiving info/tips along the way, so I simply pay it forward. That's all. I was not the one who originally posted the China crossing info on this page, but was alerted to it by a fellow traveller and wished to set the record straight. If anyone finds the info useful...GREAT!!...if not, let it die in your forum thread bin.
I could start rebutting claims or stating (for the 1,000th time) that the Chinese government is the one who sets payment for permits yadda yadda yadda...6000 euros is a lot of money for three bikes but STILL cheaper than it used to be blah blah blah
But I'm done here.
You have the info, do with it what you will.
i wish you all very safe and happy travels, as always.

---

Exactly, agree 100%.

I'm the one that copied all of your posts/info Laura as I thought it was both highly relevant, useful info and tips for motorcycling and China - which is what this forum is meant to be a resource for, to my mind. However some here find it their primary mission and entitlement in life to challenge every little iota of information, to dispute ad-nauseam, belittle others and generally dissect and find anything contentious in others posts with snide condescending remarks. Concerningly such attitudes are more prevalent on this forum than most other 'motorcycling' forums I participate on - for whatever reason.

It's bad enough that motorcyclists are already marginalised and discriminated against here, that one would think there'd be a certain level of tolerance and sense of brotherhood or sisterhood. Nope, some it would seem, feel it their primary duty to persecute and marginalise others.

As is often said, "if you have nothing nice to say, then, don't say it".

Laura, I've been following along on all the other forums/bl0gs etc., including HUBB about your travels, and find the prevalent attitude far more sociable and understanding than the prevailing attitude here.

Enjoy your travels Laura, as I'm sure you are... - shiny side up and all that genuine motorcycling 'stuff'...

- Bikerdoc.

:riding:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bikerdoc

Exactly, agree 100%.

I'm the one that copied all of your posts/info Laura as I thought it was both highly relevant and useful info and tips for motorcycling and China - which is what this forum is meant to be a resource for, to my mind. However some here find it their primary mission and entitlement in life to challenge every little iota of information, to dispute ad-nauseam, belittle others and generally dissect and find anything contentious in others posts with snide condescending remarks. Concerningly such attitudes are more prevalent on this forum than most other 'motorcycling' forums I participate on - for whatever reason.

It's bad enough that motorcyclists are already marginalised and discriminated against here, that one would think there'd be a certain level of tolerance and sense of brotherhood or sisterhood. Nope, some it would seem, feel it their primary duty to persecute and marginalise others.

As is often said, "if you have nothing nice to say, then, don't say it".

Laura, I've been following along on all the other forums/bl0gs etc., including HUBB about your travels, and find the prevalent attitude far more sociable and understanding than the prevailing attitude here.

Enjoy your travels Laura, as I'm sure you are... - shiny side up and all that genuine motorcycling 'stuff'...

- Bikerdoc.

:riding:

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Well done Doc it's about time someone posted about there concens regarding MCM ? I for one WILL NOT post RR about my riding around China in the last year and I do a lot more then most ride in 10 years with some great information about area,roads , Trouist attractions to be pulled down by other so called members on MCM ? So PAL stop sounding like a stuck recoded bring played and get a life !
Laura73 great information for people who are considering riding in China

Does anyone know how I should break in my engine or what is the best oil to use?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Does anyone know how I should break in my engine or what is the best oil to use?

Thanks

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Yeah, drain the original oil if it's a Chinese bike ASAP, and hot change to a high quality mineral until 200kms, then change again at 500kms then at 1000kms. When bike is fully broken in you can switch to fully synthetic. :icon10:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Does anyone know how I should break in my engine or what is the best oil to use?

Thanks

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Would this be for a Chinese made bike !! And what is the best oil for you engine in China !

1.no need to break it in the engine will break given time so your time would be wasted which such formalities !

2 . Engine oil ! with Chinese engine tolerances I would suggest you just use cooking oil anything else would be just a wast !

I hope my answers helps you with your question !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Does anyone know how I should break in my engine or what is the best oil to use?

Thanks

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:lol8: Don't feed the monkeys..........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChinaV

Does anyone know how I should break in my engine or what is the best oil to use?
Thanks

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Flat Tires - To Plug or Not to Plug?

Ride Safe! PAL

Ok here is another one http://www.asianbiketour.com/everest-base-camp/ I have no commercial interest in this business or it's people and I would personally be vary wary of anyone or company that says they can organize individual motorized travel through China especially the Big T and Big X.Price isn't bad if you have a group of 10 people.

I am abit suss when they say" This ride is not a guided tour. It is aimed at pre-formed groups and wealthy individual riders who wish to ride from Thailand to the Everest Base Camp (Tibet side)."

"What Asian Motorcycle Adventures is doing is arranging for and paying on your behalf all the dozens of permissions, documentations, and fees required to ride a motorcycle from Thailand, through Laos, into China and Tibet, ending up in Kathmandu, Nepal."

Then say "While in China and Tibet everyone must ride together and stay together as a group.

An English-speaking guide experienced with running motorcycle tours will accompany you the entire way. The $11,000 group tour cost covers the guide’s FFL (food, fuel, and lodging)."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigdamo

An English-speaking guide experienced with running motorcycle tours will accompany you the entire way. The $11,000 group tour cost covers the guide’s FFL (food, fuel, and lodging)."

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That's 68,208 yuan! I could buy a bike and ride it around China for a year for that amount of money!