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It's well known that Kawasaki and Suzuki are inferior in quality to Yamaha and Honda. Doesn't mean that Chinese manufacturers can hitch their wagon to the Suzuki and Kawasaki cart. Poor engineering is just poor engineering, making a part that's too weak and saving a few cents is a false economy for the customer and for the reputation of the company, wherever they are from.Quote:
Originally Posted by birdmove
what do you think of the Yamaha ys250 33k compared to suzuki 250 same price, and why you think the Yamaha doesnt have rear disc brake at that price?? thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
I assume you are talking about the 24,800 yuan Jianshe Yamaha YBR250 vs the Haojue Suzuki Gw250 also price about 24,800? Well this is where some of those Suzuki/Kawasaki being inferior and Yamaha/Honda being superior ideas break down.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikikillercat
Generally with western manufacturers with mediocre customer feedback, such as historically Kawasaki and Suzuki and these days with BMW, it generally not the entire range of bikes that is effected, problems are mostly some models that seem to have particular issues. In the past few years many owners have reported problems with the R1100GS, R12, R13, whereas the flagship S1000RR and similar machines seem much better engineered.
However when we talk about manufacturing in Asia and particularly China, it is surely a power struggle between the Japanese and Chinese about quality and cost and pricing. We cannot know very much about their internal processes and who supplies the parts, and the same goes with Jianshe Yamaha. Therefore the bias that a modern made in China Yamaha automatically will be better than a made in China Suzuki is very hard to make. We cannot know which manufacturer has better parts, assembly and design. We know that in the 80s and 90s it was certainly true that in most cases Yamaha was better, but it's very hard to say that in the case of the bikes made in China without more time.
The YBR250 is a commuter bike, it's air-cooled and simple. Ideal for lightweight touring in the context of the bikes we have in China. It doesn't have a rear disk brake, mostly because it doesn't really need one. The Suzuki is a lot more bike for the money, it is a liquid cooled twin cylinder, but it is more restricted in its capabilities. If I lived in a city and wanted a reliable no-brainer smaller capacity bike to serve me reliably in the city and the mountain roads around about I'd get the GW, if I was thinking about riding a 250 back to Europe I'd get the YBR250 and modify it for the purpose. The rear brake really wouldn't count for much in the overall analysis.
excellent response..thanks but i was talking about the YS250
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I have ybr250 and I agree with ZMC. It doesnt need back disc. Both brakes are not ideal but good enough and after I put some imported sintered pads in front stopping improved greatly.
The ys250 looks identical to ybr250 apart from headlamp, clocks, plastic panels and tail hand-bar (or whatever its called)
OK, let's see some backup. I've never heard this. It's "well known" where? Do you just make shit up to prove your own point?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888
Yeah, I don't know that I agree with the statement either. In over 52 year of riding and owning about 25 different motorcycles, that has not been my experience. I've had , lets see, 4 Hondas, 4 Yamahas, 5 Kawasakis, and 3 Suzukis. The rest were a BSA, a Bultaco, a Royal Enfield, and 2 Harleys. I'm forgetting a few here, but yoy get the picture. Of the Japanese bikes, I really have to believe that the quality of them all was pretty equal. The one Japanese bike that blew up the engine was a 2001 Kawasaki KLR250. That wasn't due to any design flaw. Just a dummy in the production line that hadn't learned, that with a silicone sealer, you can't go by "if a little is good, a lot must be better". My bikes have all been either street bikes or dual sports. I think, going way back, the very early Suzukis may have had a reputation of being slightly tacky in the detailing. But my Suzukis have been excelaant motorcycles, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy a brand new DR200, DR650, DRZ400S, S40, or a C50, or TU250 without any worries.
My only problems with Japanese designed motorcycles are, for instance, I still don't like that they all quite using replaceable bearings on the camshafts. Harley uses replaceable bearings there. Hyosung even uses replaceable bearings on the cams. Also, the dissapearance of allmost all center stands and kick starters I lament. But, I'm an old geezer, and younger riders don't seem to care about these issues.
But, in real life, almost any particular motorcycle has one or more weaknesses. They will certainly vary in the severity of those issues.
There is an issue, for example, with the Honda XR650L. There has been a number of countershafts wearing out prematurely apparently due to the fir of the countershaft sprockets to the shaft. Some owners have switched over to using the sprocket from the XR650R, and turning it over. Some buyers of used bikes have found that the previous owner, rather than splitting the cases and replaceing the worn out coun tershafts, had welded the sprocket in place when the splines wore out. If you don't believe me, go to advrider.com, get into the huge Honda XR650L thread, and search, or ask.
'Binged' the YS250 (obviously because it's China) and it gave me a 'Did you mean YZ250?' Sorry, never heard of it. So just now I Binged in Chinese only and i found it. Surely it's just a YBR250 with some aesthetic upgrades to compete with the GW250?Quote:
Originally Posted by kikikillercat
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoJ
Historically Kawasaki and Suzukis have more issues and a worse repuatation than there are with Yamaha and Honda, that's just my opinion, I may be wrong, if so sorry. This has been my own experience in my 25 years of riding and backed up with things I've read. Certainly in the last at least 10 years less and less true, and nowadays I really feel there is very little difference in quality, most likely none, and resale prices reflect that. Also with manufacturing switching to Thailand, India and a lesser extent China, it might be better to analyse who assembled your potential bike, as much as who designed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by birdmove
Some examples, in the early 70s Kawasaki 750 triple and then the late nineties Suzuki TL1000R, had potentially deadly handling issues. Both bikes were nicknamed 'The Widowmaker'. More recently with the death of a British journalist on a BMW R1300GS BMW have been accused of the same adn obviously there are many similar less publicized stories, sure a 1300GS is a popular bike but it has a very loyal legion of haters. New GSs have a steering damper, but BMW do not accept any responsibility. When engineers make errors and the manufacturers make excuses to avoid legal payments, yes they do suffer in reputation. It's better for engineers to get it right from the beginning, when people's lives are at stake. Springs and bearings are an annoyance when they fail, but other parts need to be better. The amount of China bikes with head bearing issues and weird front-end geometry is pretty scary. This geo is much better understood by the dirt biking and mountain biking community than the general motorcycling community.
From personal experience, I had a Suzuki GT250 and a Honda CB250RS in the same year 1998, both of the same year 1982. Both bikes were 16 years old, the Honda had high milage and used its whole life, the Suzuki had been off the road for the majority of its life and had much lower mileage. The Honda engineering was streets ahead and much more reliable, just felt better made and more solid. Simply looking at where the clutch bale enters the crackcase could show you an example of the difference. The Suzuki also had terrible brakes and a very flexy swingarm.
Fast-forward to the last 10 years on the track with Motogp, the premier worldwide motorcycle racing and that has been utterly dominated by Honda and Yamaha, with Ducati being the only real competitor.
I'm not saying that Suzuki and Kawasaki don't make excellent motorcycles, they absolutely do and they have huge successes in some race series.
My main point is that saying that 'look Japanese bikes aren't perect either' or 'customer satisfaction with BMW motorcycles isn't very good at the moment' and 'it takes 6 months to get a part from BMW, so if you ride another bike and you are complaining about slow delivery you should shut up' are weak rationalizations. Poor engineering is just poor engineering, and poor customer service is just poor customer service, it is easily defineable. It doesn't matter who does it, and it doesn't excuse anyone because someone else already did it.
My fear is that Chinese manufacturers may try to latch on to these failures by big brands to excuse their own failures. These kind of excuses are a very common theme in China.
Anyhow we're too far of topic.
Oh? I had a Yamaha that ended up seizing because of a plastic oil pump drive gear. And I had to have a welder add gussets to the front stay to keep it from breaking all the time. And don't get me started about two decades worth of Honda VFR rectifier/regulator problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZMC888