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Motorbikes / Expressways
G'Day,
Lets start a new thread about motorbikes on expressways to keep the info handy for future reference.
Went to two police stations in Qingpu district this morning with a printed version of the PDF file: http://www.hdezero.com/China_Law_Motorcycle_related.pdf in hand.
Officers at both police stations told us the document might be photoshopped and they are not aware motorcycles being allowed on expressways, either they are not aware of the law - don't want to admit that motorbikes are allowed on expressways or the PDF document is a fake = TIC.
The reason we choose to visit two random police stations in Qingpu district is that quite a few expressways run through the district. To be continued.......
My earlier post on the topic about the drama trying to get onto the expressway in Shanghai:
Took the ETC unit (Electronic Toll Colletction = ETC) out of one of the cars, stuck it into the top jacket pocket and rolled up slow and polite to the gate at the HuQingPing highway entry to the G15 (direction: Ningbo / Huzhou).
Handed over the ETC card as with a car to gain access to the expressway, only blank stares and a red button mounted on the table was pushed, within a few moments three attendants were over next to me and telling me loudly with hand signals that bikes are not allowed to enter the expressway (G15). Showed them the ETC card and the blue ETC unit but they would refuse expressway entry, pointed several times to my fully legal Shanghai "A" license plate, still no go... gave up after 15 minutes.
Will print out the PDF file the French speed-biker posted here and will try again showing the the English / Chinese translation.
Might bring one of our drivers with me to videotape the whole scenario.
Side-note: I know a few expressway entries with auto ETC recognition and shall try that approach with the ETC unit in the top jacket pocket as well in the next few weeks.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
I bet that at the end, you will find that it is still forbidden.
Either by Country law, by local law, by the law of the road operator, or by the law of the local police man stopping you.
Here in Taiwan, we went through the same, although on a smaller scale.
First, large displacement motorbikes were completely forbidden till the end of the 1990's.
Then, they were allowed to ride, but with rstrictions.
Even today, more then 10 years after opening up, motorbikes are still banned from using the expressways.
There is an experient going on with a small part of a expressway in the middle of the country open for big bikes, but no results or further action are heard of for the last 2 years.
In an democracy with an independent juridical system, you could create a case, be fined, and fight it in court.
But even here no one challenged the ban, and I doubt the procedure will work in the Middle Kingdom ...
Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
998S
I bet that at the end, you will find that it is still forbidden.
G'Day,
i am aware of that, just checking every angle and going to our new warehouse passing two police stations basically every day.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
I appreciate your efforts on this project Mr. TB. The expressways are the easiest way to get in and out of the city and it is ludicrous that bikes are not allowed on them. I would still would like to know what happened to Euphonius as he got into Shanghai from Beijing, that story still isn't finished.
I see bikes on the expressways around Shanghai every once in a while, and I have on occasion made use of them myself. That being said, I would not recommend them. Even the Chinese drivers on their Harleys and BMWs avoid them. The car drivers just don't know what to make of you. Being tailgated by a dork in a Hyundai is not an unfamiliar experience for me, but at expressway speeds it can get a little nerve wracking.
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nuhaus
.....expressways are the easiest way to get in and out of the city and it is ludicrous that bikes are not allowed on them....
G'Day,
To be fair and square, I am quite frequently using inter-province expressways with cars going to different cities for business and would hate to see inexperienced motorcyclist with 125cc bikes that are falling apart cruising along the expressways.
You know exactly the bikes i am talking about, only scotch-tape and some string holding them together......
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nuhaus
.Even the Chinese drivers on their Harleys and BMWs avoid them.
Don't they just meet at Starbucks, UBC, Costa Coffee? Haven't seen any cofeeshops along expressways in China yet....
OK, some pics showing "no motorcycle" signs at entry ramps to elevated roads and expressways in Shanghai.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TB-Racing
OK, some pics showing "no motorcycle" signs at entry ramps to elevated roads and expressways in Shanghai.
Hmmmm. It appears as though we can ride our tractors on 3 of those 4 expressways.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TB-Racing
Went to two police stations in Qingpu district this morning with a printed version of the PDF file:
http://www.hdezero.com/China_Law_Motorcycle_related.pdf in hand.
Officers at both police stations told us the document might be photoshopped and they are not aware motorcycles being allowed on expressways, either they are not aware of the law - don't want to admit that motorbikes are allowed on expressways or the PDF document is a fake = TIC
.
That document does look dodgy indeed.
Here, what seems to be the original traffic law in Chinese and the official translation to English.
I haven't found anything specifically about banning bikes from expwys, but in an article about tractors it is mentioned that provincial and municipal governments may adopt driving bans and I am afraid bike bans are treated the same way.
It is fully understandable that nobody want's to have all those bikes carrying farmers and their tools, entire families riding the wrong way and all the other crappy two wheelers.
http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/pictu...-festival.html
A while ago some of the big bike manufacturers' reps tried to lobby the government to establish a big bike category with a different number plate and to treat them like cars. They failed, at least for the time being as they are only representing foreign interests and a very small group of people.
Traffic law in China is a big mess and it will stay like this for a while longer since they have 1.4 billion other problems to solve first :icon10:
Have tried to enter an expressway with an extract of the traffic law (chapter 4, section 5) - no way
Entered and left expressways many times without being covered by law, mostly through gas or service stations. Been caught only once but not fined :thumbsup:
http://www.mychinamoto.com/forums/sh...ull=1#post5067
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chinabiker
That document does look dodgy indeed.
G'Day,
Trying to dig deeper into this PDF document...... hopefully have an answer later this week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chinabiker
"....in an article about tractors it is mentioned that provincial and municipal governments may adopt driving bans and I am afraid bike bans are treated the same way...."
Spot on, reckon thats the same in the greater Shanghai region as I have ridden big motorcycles on the expressways in Yunnan, Sichuan, Beijing, Shandong after a lot of talking to toll gate attendants and police officers.....
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
My understanding from taking my multiple choice test is that the motorcycles are allowed on expressways as long as they can go the minimum speed, so that dodgy document is correct. They are only banned as a form of local bylaw. Over five years ago I was stopped at a toll both on a G road, yes just a national road and nowhere even near a city! I was told motorcycles were banned from the next stretch of road. When they saw I was a Laowei I was then allowed to continue. This shows that they have the power to do whatever they like in local areas.
The real truth is more obvious, surely. Beijing has or wants to ban electric bikes. This is because everyone loves cars and even people who don't love them buy cars as it's seen as a patriotic duty to support the national economy and will gain face. When you are stuck in a car having a bad day the last thing you want to see is someone having fun or going cheaply around on an electric bike or worse a scooter or motorcycle. That's when you support a ban on them. Although you absolutely gain NOTHING from it as those motorcycle riders and electric bike riders are mainly forced into cars thus increasing the gridlock. But it makes you feel much more comfortable that everyone is in the 'same boat' and these annoying complex differences have been eradicated, one size fits all. I'm being cynical, but it's true. TIC.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
We've covered this before in earlier threads (which I'm too lazy to dig out). The national traffic law does not forbid motorcycles on expressways. The master list of questions for the motorcycle examination does refer to special restrictions: riding two-up is not allowed on the expressways and motorcycles are restricted to a maximum speed (which I think is 110kph). There is no national prohibition. But many provinces have local traditions that contravene the national law. I'm not sure where you'd find these written (except on the signs at expressway entrances) because I doubt that provinces have their own independent traffic laws (though I could be wrong on this).
That dodgy document appears to take its text from the national traffic law and/or the national drivers license examinations. You can buy these in any Xinhua book store.
But that does not mean the tolltaker or cop who has stopped you will relent when you whip out the law. Since when is China ruled by laws?
cheers
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
euphonius
Since when is China ruled by laws?
cheers
:lol8::lol8::lol8:
TIC
We love it and hate it at the same time.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
lived 6 months in qingpu, its roads are good for motorcycles, new highways, not much cars, almost none. good for speed test and great for travelling to suzhou.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
OK, just for fun, I looked up the PRC Highway Traffic Safety Law (中华人民共和国道路交通安全法) and the PRC Highway Traffic Safety Law Implementation Regulations (中华人民共和国道路交通安全法实施条例).
There are altogether 13 mentions of motorcycles. (I've supplied euphonial translations for some but not all.)
The Law makes only one mention of motorcycles, in Chapter 4, paragraph 51:
第五十一条 机动车行驶时,驾驶人、乘坐人员应当按规定使用安全带,摩托车驾驶人及乘坐人员应当按规定戴安全头盔。Wh en a motor vehicle is in motion, the driver and passengers must wear safety belts in accordance with regulations; motorcycle drivers and passengers must wear helmets in accordance with regulations.
The other 12 mentions are in the Implementation Regulations
Chapter 2, Section 1, Paragraph 16 regarding mandatory registration and maintenance checks, Line 4
(四)摩托车4年以内每2年检验1次;超过4年的,每年检验1次;Within the first 4 years motorcycles must be checked every 2 years; after 4 years they must be checked annually.
Chapter 4, Section 2, Paragraph 44
第四十四条 在道路同方向划有2条以上机动车道的,左侧为快速车道,右侧为慢速车道。在快速车道行驶的机动车应当按照快 速车道规定的速度行驶,未达到快速车道规定的行驶速度的,应当在慢速车道行驶。摩托车应当在最右侧车道行驶 。有交通标志标明行驶速度的,按照标明的行驶速度行驶。慢速车道内的机动车超越前车时,可以借用快速车道行 驶。On roadways with two or more lanes in the same direction, the left lane is the fast lane and the right lane is the slow lane. Vehicles in the fast lane should abide by fast lane regulations, and vehicles that do not keep up the permitted fast lane speed should use the slow lanes. Motorcycles should drive in the rightmost lane. Where traffic signs show a posted speed, drive the posted speed. Vehicles in the slow lane may use the fast lane for overtaking.
Chapter 4, Section 2, Paragraph 4 has several rules, one about the size of loads that motorcycles are permitted to carry; one that forbids children under 12 years old from riding pillion and forbids "lightweight" motorcycles from carrying pillions at all; one that forbids motorcycles to pull other vehicles or be pulled by other vehicles; and one that forbids motorcyclists from removing their hands from the handlebar or hanging objects from the handlebar.
Chapter 4, Section 4, Paragraph 77 has a rule saying that motorcycle riders must ride facing forward (love that one!)
Finally, drum roll please...
Chapter 5, titled Special Regulations for Expressways (第五节 高速公路的特别规定)
In Paragraph 78
On the expressway, the maximum speed for small passenger vehicles must not exceed 120 kilometers per hour, other motor vehicles must not exceed 100 kilometers per hour, and motorcycles must not exceed 80 kilometers per hour. 在高速公路上行驶的小型载客汽车最高车速不得超过每小时120公里,其他机动车不得超过每小时100公里, 摩托车不得超过每小时80公里。
In Paragraph 83
When driving on the expressway, vehicles carrying freight must not carry passengers in the cargo compartment. When driving on the expressway, motorcycles must not carry passengers. 第八十三条 在高速公路上行驶的载货汽车车厢不得载人。两轮摩托车在高速公路行驶时不得载人。
The expressway section also sets the maximum and minimum speeds at 120 kph and 60 kph, so it seems motorcycles are restricted to riding at 60-80 kph. That sucks.
But that's everything. There is nothing in either document banning motorcycles from the expressways.
Now, to throw a spanner in the works, I see now that many provinces do have their own "implementation methods" (实施办法) that probably do have specific prohibitions, but I'm not going to dig them out lest I get too depressed.
Ignorance is bliss.
cheers
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
OK, just for the hell of it, I did go through all nine pages of the Zhejiang Implementation Method and, while I found 19 references to motorcycles, none was a ban on riding on the expressway, unless I missed one in my haste.
Zhejiang is the province where police have been known to put down spikes on the expressway to stop motorcycles, somewhere in or near Hangzhou as I recall.
cheers
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Couldn't sleep last night, Euphonius? Regardless of that I really appreciate your posts.
Ignorance IS bliss. TIC and I look forward to having a heated discussion with one of the expressway workers about why the Chinese people 'in charge?' even wrote a set of road rules in the first place if they were only going to be rewritten (differently) in every single province.
I want to try your tactic of getting right up to the gate and getting wedged in by a big articulated truck so that I can't back out and they'll have to let me in to restore the flow of vehicles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
euphonius
Zhejiang is the province where police have been known to put down spikes on the expressway to stop motorcycles, somewhere in or near Hangzhou as I recall.
cheers
Jesus Christ.
A = That's almost as bad as shooting at us to stop us.
B = The government gives them the slowest police vehicles but does give them spikes? ... ...that kinda makes sense actually.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
So what's the deal with useless China-cars and Expressways? Are they allowed? Or are they shunned? :lol8:
They use a motorcycle engine....and wouldn't be able to keep to the minimums up a hill fully loaded.
Attachment 6442 Type |
Bullex |
Fuel |
Gas / |
Displacement |
>250cc |
Engine Type |
4-Stroke |
Max. Speed |
> 80km/h (surely not with passengers!) |
Certification |
CCC |
Condition |
New |
Brand Name |
Bullex |
Place of Origin |
Shandong, China (Mainland) |
Model Number |
JB600ZK-F1 |
Brake(F/R) |
Suzuki |
Passenger Vehicle |
JB600ZK-F1 |
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
:lol8:
Is that really a 250cc?
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
You can at least try to make them lose face, by telling them and/or their superior: "It turns out a laowei knows the Chinese traffic rules better than him/her!" Or occupy one of the toll gates for a while, and don't care about the line of vehicles behind you (chinese style)!
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barry
occupy one of the toll gates for a while, and don't care about the line of vehicles behind you (chinese style)!
Spot on Barry :thumbsup:. That's exactly what I'd like to do.
I've prepared a small speech that should go something like this:
"I'm very sorry. My Chinese isn't very good... it takes me a while to understand why you personally create new laws that contradict the written laws that I worked very hard to understand while learning how to pass your written driving test.
I'm sorry what? I know there is a large queue behind me...
What? Yes I still don't understand...
...Look, it would be much easier and faster if you just let me on.
What?
Ok thanks... (they let me on because there are a line of trucks behind me causing a gridlock).
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
G'Day,
The bike on expressway ban is not isolated to Shanghai region, see attached pictures taken during the last three days while i was over in Jiangsu province (Nanjing / Changzhou).
***took the car before someone asks***
I love them police car / cop dummies sitting along the Shanghai - Nanjing expressway (G42), definitely need some for my garage!
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Well, for what it's worth, I think it is common knowledge among the BJ bikers that it is possible to go on the expressways and that is the normal way to get out of the city. We pay just like cars and only once I got a surprised look from one of the tollgate clerks. I don't know where I read it but I have this fixed idea in my mind that this is true for BJ and Tianjin.
And btw: We rode two up on the BJ expressways many times...
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
This thread hasn't been touched for a while but it's been on my mind the whole time.:rolleyes1:
I'm still not ready to go in and test the water yet. All my docs are in order and I'm ready to book the test but I'm still studying the endless book of almost useless test questions:WTFamI (currently on page 125 out of 231).
On my recent bus trips to and from the wife's hometown I've noticed that a number of the gao su lu entrance signs on the way don't include the sign that prohibits motorcycles. Xintai, in particular, definitely only had signs forbidding tractors, three wheelers and bicycles. I think it was the same in Boshan.
If I have time tomorrow I'm going to view the the Zhangdian gao su lu entrance sign and photograph it... if doing so helps.
I don't expect them to allow me on just because they haven't put up the 'no motorbike' sign yet but it's a good starter for an argument in favour of motorcycles.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
I'm on page 160 of the test today... didn't have time to visit the expressway entrance though.
I think tomorrow I'll post a photo of the sign, just to keep this thread going :poke.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Here it is...
Attachment 6644
This won't be my first choice of entry. There is another entrance on the north west. That'll probably be the same but I should check it out.
If that fails, my first choice of entry will be Boshan. I swear I never saw motorbikes on the signs there.
I won't get on without either a huge debate or slipping through the 2ft gaps on the right hand side of each gate. The debate will help all China bikers in their efforts to enter expressways, slipping in will likely do the opposite.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
The gap in the far right lane is always at least 1m wide.... (Not that I'd ever use it....)
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
soberpete
I won't get on without either a huge debate or slipping through the 2ft gaps on the right hand side of each gate. The debate will help all China bikers in their efforts to enter expressways, slipping in will likely do the opposite.
G'Day,
Easy as to slip onto the expressway like the infamous Frenchy speed-biker but thats not the point, I want to go onto the expressway the legal way and don't mind paying for the privilege.
The gaps in the ETC lane are big enough to slip through but........
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
IMHO, sure you'll get the bike through the auto-pay ETC booth, but then with the bored police who will be 500% more than any western country to keep artificial near full employment will be a tad rudely awoken by the presence of your bike and you'll have a bunch of blue and white Sanatanas in your mirrors.
The way it seems to work is, you approach a senior policeman or official in a good mood, say something nice about China or his lovely road then he gets on his radio to tell the other cops up and down the road that there is a laowei coming on a big bike and to let him pass as a one-off, because he is in a good mood, really very bored and also wants to show the subordinates that he has the power to break or bend the rules at his whim. Of course the next laowei could find this very same officer in a bad mood who may want to show his underlings how the law is enforced strictly with no exceptions.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZMC888
IMHO, sure you'll get the bike through the auto-pay ETC booth, but then with the bored police who will be 500% more than any western country to keep artificial near full employment will be a tad rudely awoken by the presence of your bike and you'll have a bunch of blue and white Sanatanas in your mirrors.
I've been seeing lot's of police KIA sportage SUV's at the entrances these days. They may make a much more interesting pursuit than the old Santanas:gerg:.
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Do Chinese highway police have a policy of giving chase, whether in a Santana or an SUV? I've been pursued only twice: once by a repair crew in a yellow official truck while ryanjpyle and I rode through the expressway tunnel linking Shanghai with Changxing Island, and once when Motokai and I waved politely and rolled through the gap on the westbound G50 toward Huzhou and a small police van followed half-heartedly, at one point pulling up next to Motokai to size him up.
In far more instances, enforcement, to whatever degree, happens at the next tollgate. Typically, the tolltaker will be surprised to see a bike, and befuddled if the rider has a recognizably foreign face. I usually just smile, and roll through. If a police officer comes out, there's often a discussion. I'm not good at pretending I don't speak Chinese, but I am good at being friendly and schmoozing and backslapping, which usually wins the day. Sometimes not.
More darkly, I remember hearing a story about police in Hangzhou laying down spike strips and choking all traffic down to just one lane to snare a couple of riders who they seemed to know were riding in on the expressway from Huangshan. It's disheartening to know that they'd be willing to cause such extremes of inconvenience for everyone else on the road just to chase a couple of bikes off the expressway.
It's even scarier to contemplate the day when the Chinese police DO start copying from Hollywood movies and actually give chase. For that reason alone, I'd like to see a new class of expressway tolls for bikes. I'm even happy to pay the passenger car toll, as our comrades in Beijing are allowed to do.
cheers!
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Re: Motorbikes / Expressways
Quote:
Originally Posted by
euphonius
Do Chinese highway police have a policy of giving chase, whether in a Santana or an SUV?
I would be more than happy to give you an answer by trying it out but on the other hand I agree with TB-Racing; it should be done the legal way. Slipping on illegally will only encourage them in their efforts to hinder the entrance of any and all motorcycles.
I just want to portray to them, somehow, that there are bikes out there (such as my 250cc and maybe later some 600+cc bikes) that are more than capable of safely using the expressways than most of the cars and trucks on them right now. If - for example - they set a minimum engine size to 250cc they'd cut out 99% of the other Chinese motorcycles and leave a clear road for the 1% of us who take riding seriously.