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  1. #1 Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    It seems to me that there is a two tier system amongst foreigner motorcycle riders the 'haves' and 'have nots'. The haves are typically people who are paid in overseas currency by big businesses and governments and can afford the massive cost of 'premium' bikes in China. The have nots are typically people who are supporting themselves from the local Chinese economy, many of whom are English teachers.

    This isn't a dig at everyone who has money and can afford a decent bike, there is just a minority, who see themselves as VIP elite, and actually look down on others, and who wouldn't even ride with people who have a Chinese bike.

    This attitude seems more common around Shanghai than Beijing. It's also a little sad that bikers who are under so much pressure from car loving government policy can't see eye to eye.

    Some 'premium bike riders' dismiss every Chinese bike as 'utter crap' when they've never ridden one. Laugh at or deride others who ride small bikes, but don't realize not everyone can register a 'premium bike' where they live, even if they wanted to. They may regard their Chang Jiang, Beemer or Harley as being a great bike, but don't realize that they are not to everyone's taste, and some people enjoy riding lightweight, cheap, fun and easy to repair bikes, not great big heavy machines. Many experienced riders would never want a Harley or 1200GS, but might like a F 800 R for example. Most people who buy new bikes in the west do it on finance or with a bank loan. These are unavailable to foreigners who live in China. Lots of people ride Chinese smaller capacity bikes because they are legal. There are almost no affordable larger capacity bikes in the 2nd hand market that are legally registered.
    Without consciousness, space and time are nothing; in reality you can take any time -- whether past or future -− as your new frame of reference. Death is a reboot that leads to all potentialities.
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  2. #2 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Life Is Good! ChinaV's Avatar
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    Bikers should be family, regardless of what they ride. Sounds like someone's been pulling your chain .

    When motorcycling gets political, I go motorcycling . Quite often with English teachers . I 've met a lot of the people on MCM, some "Haves" and some "Have Nots", they all seem like good folk to me.

    Doesn't matter what the others think, enjoy your ride.

    Cheers!
    ChinaV
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  3. #3 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    V, was never aimed at you! You are a guy who understands the merits of both premium and a lightweight budget machine.

    Nor was this aimed at Andy or anyone else on MCN, I agree all on here are good folk. But some people elsewhere really can be ***holes!
    Without consciousness, space and time are nothing; in reality you can take any time -- whether past or future -− as your new frame of reference. Death is a reboot that leads to all potentialities.
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  4. #4 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Motorcycle Addict chinabiker's Avatar
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    Is the recent posting on HU what made you write this

    I am with ChinaV on this topic and thank's for excluding us from the a@!*^~e list
    Andy
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  5. #5 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    Hmmm... I can seem to remember a day when it took quite some shucking and jiving to get ChinaV on a 200. Even better still, I can remember a day when it took me a totally destroyed used Honda AX-1 to get my stoopid ass on a cheap old beaten up 150cc Chinese Nighthawk.

    I'll never forget that 150cc "piece of crap" for as long as I live.


    I read the post on HU and it looks like Butchman is up to it again! He used to be a member on here until one day he mysteriously deleted all his posts and left. Oh well!

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  6. #6 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    Butchman probably hated having to talk to 'cheapo China charlie English teachers' with 'crappy China bikes'.

    Anyway, I hope we can all just be riders.



    Age, gender, nationality, income, work, what we ride, these are not relevant. Enjoying the ride is the important thing. The whole' two-tier' thing is a product of Chinese government policy anyway.
    Last edited by ZMC888; 12-01-2009 at 05:32 AM.
    Without consciousness, space and time are nothing; in reality you can take any time -- whether past or future -− as your new frame of reference. Death is a reboot that leads to all potentialities.
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  7. #7 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
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    Hey ZMC 888 I resemble this remark
    "Of course the big fat Chang-Jiang and reconditioned BMW side car club won't let you come on their lard-ass outings, which is also an advantage." Our "Lard-Ass" rides take us hundreds and often thousands of kms away from Beijing.
    We don't discriminate against anyone who wants to ride with us, it's the power to weight ratio up in the mountains that does it for us. Same story on the expressways; 3 wheelers are allowed but not 2 wheelers.
    Regds,
    Jimbo (Lard Ass)
    www.bmwsidecar.com



    Butchman probably hated having to talk to 'cheapo China charlie English teachers' with 'crappy China bikes'.

    Anyway, I hope we can all just be riders.



    Age, gender, nationality, income, work, what we ride, these are not relevant. Enjoying the ride is the important thing. The whole' two-tier' thing is a product of Chinese government policy anyway.[/QUOTE]
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  8. #8 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    Jimbo, I was out of line with that comment. Sorry. Removed.
    Without consciousness, space and time are nothing; in reality you can take any time -- whether past or future -− as your new frame of reference. Death is a reboot that leads to all potentialities.
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  9. #9 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    It's really easy to get worked up when people start slamming Chinese bikes for really no good reason ... and I'm usually the first in line to start making noise (and many pages worth of it ). Ultimately, I end up attributing their attitudes to moto-ignorance or even culutral shovansim in some cases. To be extra-general, I suppose there are two basic types of attitudes when it comes to this topic...

    1) The bike makes the man or
    2) The man makes the bike

    Personally, and I think nearly all of the people on MCM, are of the second type which says it's fundamentally the rider, not the ride. We know people are capable of doing great things with minimal resources IF they have the passion, patience, knowledge and skills to work around shortcomings. From the rattyest rat bikes to the blingingest of bling bikes, probably one of the most important benefits of this attitude is no matter what type of bike you're riding, they're all fun and wonderful in their own way and the "inclusive" nature of their personality makes it easier for them to enjoy whatever comes before them.

    On the other end of the generalized spectrum, we have the first type of rider where the bike makes the image of the man. Often, to this type of rider, the appearance or statement of who they are is conveyed through the bike. The quality of appearance and the identification with one brand or type may help them to "fulfill" some sort of identity which they passionately defend as vigorously as they would their own lives. So much is tied up in the illusion of who they are, the necessity to keep that appearance air-tight becomes a stressful life-long journey which will eventually leak air. Since their "exclusive" attitude will eventually bring them into one confrontation or another, they live in a world of eggshells and generally are not very adaptive to different environments or situations.

    In the end, it takes all kinds. The "exclusive" crowd and their cliques are an extremely important part of the world moto industry because, to a certain extent, they spend stupid amounts of money on their rides and keep the moto-conomy moving. Think about the amount of chromed parts sold to Harley owners in the US every year or the complete catalogs devoted to 1200GS farkles (no offense Andy)! Additionally, these types of riders and their fervor may also be politically active in protecting or developing rider's rights since money talks (as unfortunate as that may be at times).

    The "inclusive" crowd, by my guesses, must outnumber the exclusive folks by at least 10,000 to 1. Looking at it in the Western context, this doesn't make sense but if you include the millions upon millions of people who ride bikes for daily transportation around the world, the scales tip in a very different direction. "Appearance" is largely secondary to these riders since affordable, convenient transportation is their primary benefit. These "cheapo" bikes are the foundation of a pyramid for most of the world's manufacturers. The money made and generated from the sales of gas, repair services, parts and accessories to this massive body of humble rides must easily dwarf all the expensive "modern" bikes produced in Europe and Japan. The downside to this utilitarian crowd is they generally don't get much exposure, either policitcally or in the "main-stream" media, and are often under represented. Out of sight, out of mind.

    Anywho... no reason for chapped asses fellas. We're all mature enough here to understand and forgive our two-wheeled brothers for our temporary emotional tirades.

    It can, and does, happen to the best of us.


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  10. #10 Re: Two-tier foreign riders in China. 
    Senior C-Moto Guru ZMC888's Avatar
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    Whilst everything you have said is completely true Carl, some of those most dedicated and proud of their bikes prestigious bikes, are riding bikes that are really inappropriate bikes for the conditions, or of one brand name above all others.

    I remember being at a small bike festival in New Zealand, the Ducati riders were the popular leaders and alpha males, where as Suzuki riders were looked down on! Honda and Harley riders being an upper middle class. I was on a 15 year old Honda and was quietly laughed at for having such an old bike, but was mitigated by the bike's classic appeal, and for being a Honda. Couldn't people be discussing riding techniques and places to ride, rather than the status derived or perceived from the bike?

    Some Harleys, for example have foot pegs or foot plates so low that if you were to lean over 30 degrees you likely rip them off, and any corner slower than 50kmh being an ungainly waddle. The triumph of image over practicality and 'rideability'. Perhaps on a sunny day with the pack riding on straight roads in So-cal the bike makes sense. But how many Europeans would ride nothing else?

    Also whilst not wishing to bash Andy, and others on this forum, a 1200GS is 250KG wet, which is a seriously heavy slab of bike. While it's good for traveling around the world, or very long distances in China, it would seem so many riders don't get far from home on one, such a waste, as they could be having so much fun on a lighter bike.

    I rode a Hayabusa the other day (yes in China!), what a stpooid impractical bike in a city! 'Superman' riding position, bike cannot be thrown around corners at and speed, especially below 50kmh, all turns need to be pre-planned long in advance, an absolute chore to ride, yet probably wonderful on a drag strip.

    Although there is nothing wrong with enjoying a Chang Jiang, and they certainly suit the conditions of wanting to take a wife and/or child that can't ride, some bike clubs seem to have an exclusive vibe where other Chinese bikes wouldn't be welcome, even though these days Changs build quality seems similar to most other Chinese bikes, and don't tell me that a 125cc bike with a good rider can't keep up. Why so much Chinese national pride around a bike that is a Chinese copy of a Russian copy of a 1930s BMW? My bike is based on a 90's Honda, still a copy bike with dubious quality compared to the originals. Changs are allowed on freeways, which makes them 'better', but how? Would my bike be any less safe on a freeway?

    To me it seems motorcycling 'nirvana' is being able to get away from manufacturer's badges and favorite styles, and being able to almost scientifically choose the correct bike for the riding conditions. Possibly take a leaf from cyclists' knowledge. These riders have much less brand loyalty to bike brands, than component brands.
    Last edited by ZMC888; 12-03-2009 at 04:32 AM.
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