Chinese Hardley - what is, who makes, where get?

[davidqc]

Yes, but with cruisers the torque is more important than the hp.

It's always torque (turning power) that is the important factor because hp is directly derived arithmetically from torque:

brake horsepower = (torque x rpm) / 5252.

[iamcanjim]

Not torque as much as power at low revs. A lot of people, esp. older drivers and riders, or people who have generally owned cars with large engines like the feeling of lots of power just off idle. Anyone who has ridden in a Shanghai taxi or with my Dad in Canada knows that they shift gears at less than 1400 rpms. To them, power is power just off idle. They think if they rev it up they are 'breaking it.' Cruisers, esp. harleys, work on this perception. They achieve it in three ways. Heavy flywheel, heavy reciprocating mass and small valves openings. This gives the feeling of power at low revs, at the expense of actual power at high revs.

My old 2003 Ninja ZX9R had about 145 hp at the crank. My buddies' Harley Dyna had about 55 hp. But at 2000 revs, the Ninja has about 10 hp and the Harley has about 45. So the Harley 'feels' faster, esp to someone who is just cruising, is a poor rider or is in city traffic. My Ninja didn't develop serious power until about 8500 rpms, well above the Harley's 5500 rpm redline. How does this apply to Chinese bikes?

Well, my friend Nuhaus's Suzuki GZ150 feels faster than my Honda Rebel CMX250, although i have more displacement. That is because his bike is a single cylinder. To a newbie, or to someone who dislikes the revving, or to someone who only rides in the bike lanes, the Suzuki will feel faster. However, my bike is a lot faster on the open road or on city streets.
sun
The best way to achieve this feeling of power at low revs is to minimize the number of cylinders. GM used to be a master of this in the late 80's and early 90's with 2 valve pushrod large 4 cylinder engines. My Dad still maintains his 2000 Pontiac Sunfire (2.5 L, 8v 4, 110 hp) was quicker than my 1999 Ford Contour SVT (2.5 L 24v six, 210 hp) because admittedly my car as pretty dead off idle.

That said, the best cruiser engines below 800 cc are 2v singles, as they put out the kind of power cruiser riders crave. Unfortunately it's impossible to make a single look or sound like a vtwin.

The Big four small cruisers (and their Chinese clones) are all a result of trying to work this out.

The Yamaha Virago 250 is a genuine V-twin. It has small cylinders and 2 valves per cylinder. Unfortunately it's impossible to make a small vtwin make a lot of power without revving it. Also, it's more expensive to make because of the fact it has 2 heads and 2 valvetrains. It makes around 22 hp. The 400 cc version is similar, although power is way down due to attempt to increase the low end (something like 28 hp out of 400 cc's is criminal)

The Suzuki GZ250 is a 2V 250 cc single. It has a lot more torque feeling than the Yamaha and is cheap and simple to make. It doesn't look very cruiserish. Also, it vibrates and sounds like a lawn mower. It makes around 20 hp. Suzuki makes a 650 cc single for the US market, but again is really crippled by the attempt to increase the low end (about 35 hp out of 650 cc's is an atrocity).

The Honda CMX250 is a e2v 233 cc parallel twin. This configuration is cheap to make (only 1 head) and is capable of making the most power. However, it's cylinders are tiny and therefore will not make a lot of power down low. Honda has remedied this by making it very low compression and giving it tiny valves. This slightly increases bottom end at the expense of top end power. it makes about 18 hp. Honda used to have a 450 cc Rebel.

Now, it is possible to get big power out of a small engine. All of the big4 made 250 cc sportbikes with about 50 hp. Honda even made VTZ 250's with about 45 hp in v twins. All of those would feel incredibly gutless at low revs.

[ZMC888]

Great stuff Jim, but don't forget there is also a lot that can be done with exhausts to achieve the desired torque vs hp.

It's so true that many people think that red lining a bike will break it! If changing rings every 10,000-20,000 kms even with a Chinese made engine is breaking it, well that is a cost I am willing to live with! (In fact our local mechanic changes the whole piston (usually with Sundiro-Honda genuine parts, as it's cost effective and less hassle)).

[bikerdoc]

Anyone know who makes this more Harley than a Harley new Chinese machine and what it's called...?

Attachment 1142

Im told the engine is a 250 version Yama Virago clone, but know't else. Not bad eh! Not bad at all!

V-Twin-Engine-Chopper-QH250-.jpg

V-Twin-Engine-Motorcycle-Chopper-EPA-QH250-.jpg

see Chongqing Hibird Motorcycle Industry Co., Ltd. they make a V-Twin Chopper (QH250) pictured above, although while it looks very similar to the photo in your post it's not exactly the same. I think that your photo is of a V-Twin 250cc chopper designed by an American company, that is having them built in Shanghai, or at least the American company is based in Shanghai. I read about this company and the American guys who set it up a while a go. They have a website, but I can't recall the name at the moment... I'll have to go through my long list of favourites in my browser.

[Oengus]

There are other V-twin engines; like the Magna 250 does anyone manufacture that V-Twin or the 500cc?
250cc

500cc

[iamcanjim]

Interesting you should talk about the Honda Magna 250. A Chinese company, Chunlan, used to make a copy of it, but they aren't in the showroom at teh Chunlan dealer at the moto market. They aren't on Chunlan's website (I don't know if they ever were). I have seen a fair number cruising around Shanghai, and I have even seen motorcycle police here riding them.

They are 4v 90 vtwins, and are physically a lot larger than the average small cruiser. The engine is a lower tuned version of the VTR250 engine.
Kymco in Taiwan also makes a copy, presumably with Honda's permission (they are a Honda JV) and imports them to North America. The whole package is a whole generation ahead of anything else in the way of a Chinese cruiser.

[CrazyCarl]

I know the Magna 250 isn't in the US. I don't think the engine is either. Are they in Canada?

CC

[Oengus]

I have to tell you that the Chunlun websites server is hosting viruses, I cannot stay on it my virus software will not allow it? The software identifies a Trojan application in the site code….

Kymco does not offer the Venox in the USA they only offer one motorcycle, the Quannon with a 150cc and lots of scooters.

They only formalized KYMCO USA in January 2008, they also seem to have a joint venture with Kawasaki to manufacture engines.
I like Kymco (Kwang Yang Motor Company) I like the naked version of the Quannon but only see it offered as a 125cc and not in north America.

[Oengus]

4-Stroke single cylinder, OHC
Air and Oil
124.1 cm3 (56.5 mm Bore x stroke 49.5 mm)
Power: 12.8 hp at 10000 rpm
Torque: 9.9 Nm
Multi-plate clutch in oil bath
5 speed gearbox
In the UK $4,291.00 and you can buy them online.

[Oengus]

They do sell the Venox in Canada
http://www.kymco.ca/onRoad.php
and the Quannon 150cc...but no naked version. $3,291.00 US, the Venox sell for $4,700.00 US