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  1. #1 oils ain't oils? 
    grumpy old sod jape's Avatar
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    I just started a strip down and service on the Kinlon KBR200 and felt that a replacement of oil might as well be done again while I am at it now it is at 750 km, having done a 300 and 500 km changeover for running in. The oil I was advised to use has so far been a synthetic Motul 4T 10/40 but heck that stuff is nearly $100 for four litres so I have changed, on the salesman's advice, to a mineral oil, Shell Advanced (synth additive) SX4 15/50 at half the price. Given that this engine/clutch is pretty basic 4 stroke and that I don't hammer through the bush, rather I crawl along the dirt tracks to home and cruise the asphalt, will this oil be OK? How often should I change now?
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  2. #2 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    Life Is Good! ChinaV's Avatar
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    Regular 10W40 motorcycle oil for break in, not synthetic.
    After break in, change to synthetic if you like, but it must be motorcycle oil.
    10W40 in cooler climates.
    20W50 in hot weather on air cooled bikes.
    Change every 6 months or 2500-5000 kilometers depending on oil quality. You can ride 20,000 kilometers in one month on a good synthetic oil, it's not just the distance that kills oil, it's the time spent sitting and collecting deposits in your engine.

    Just my 2 cents.
    ChinaV
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  3. #3 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    On that note, I've used regular Mobil 1 in my bikes for several years and had no problems. What do you think is the actual difference between automotive and moto specific oils? I know some people talked about additives that work better with wet clutches but I've never really been able to tell a difference despite having tried both.

    CC
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  4. #4 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    grumpy old sod jape's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I was told the exact opposite by the dealers I purchased from, run in with synthetic then run on mineral if desired. I am not saying they are right just that the info seems a bit contradictory about this stuff.

    I know from Googling that they add/use esters in synthetics because these chemically created molecules coat surfaces better and add to lubricity especially at high temperatures, more so than mineral oil, they are also meant to attract and remove gunk from the internal metal surfaces better than mineral oils.

    So I can see why the suppliers said use synth for running in as it more easily protects and removes crap during running in, but again those same properties would aid in long life. I am not sure they would be worth the higher price though on a basic clunker engine. Not exactly high-tec these Loncin 200cc 4 strokes but I may be wrong - they are still a generation or so on from what I grew up with.

    If anyone knows the' good oil' about oils I will listen. I will go with the 'bike shop meanwhile and use the Shell mineral oil with additives for now. Might be half the price of synthetic but still twice the price of car oil.

    I don't remember using anything other than good old cheap unbranded 20/50 in 'bikes before in my life, old BSA's and Hondas of the 70's and 80's. Mind you, a couple did blow up at high speed.
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  5. #5 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    Life Is Good! ChinaV's Avatar
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    Most car oils don't stand up so well to the crush/sheer factor of the wet clutch in a motorcycle. I have heard many good things about Castrol GTX and Mobile1, so it just goes to show that your mileage may vary in the oil debate. I think the motorcycle formulas tend to have a little higher zinc content, many people say to be careful of car oil with additives as they are not great for the clutch plates.

    Cheers!
    ChinaV
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  6. #6 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    Hmmm..still scratching my head on that one. I'm not sure how the crush and shear factor of a wet clutch could be any more harsh than the crush an shear factor of a piston and cylinder. I could see it having an adverse effect on the clutch plate friction materials but I've just never experienced one so bad that it made a noticable difference.

    Ultimately it's probably safer to use moto specific oil. Regardless of standard or synthetic, in the case of our overworked but faithful 200s, I think it's most important to change your oil regularly and often.

    CC
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  7. #7 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    C-Moto Senior davidqc's Avatar
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    http://www.bikenomads.com/wiki/index...r_oil_in_bikes explains very nicely why you shouldn't use car oil in bikes - wet cluches innit. Be sure that the oil for your bike has the JASO MA logo somewhere on the bottle/can: http://www.motorex.co.uk/info/jaso.html

    On the subject of running in (breaking in), I use the 'mototune method': http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm on bikes and cars.

    Note that when running/breaking in, previous posts are corect saying to never use any form of synthetic oil (semi or fully synth) cos it's way tooooo slippy and you want all the moving parts to bed in nicely - bit of friction called for. So you use simple plain mineral car oil without enhancement with lots of oil changes (see mototune webpage). In the UK, its sold (cheap at about £12 for 4 litre bottle) at Tesco, Asda and Wilkinson.
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  8. #8 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    Administrator-tron CrazyCarl's Avatar
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    Read that page and much of the info is pretty redundant. Looks like they all point to "it's bad for your clutch" but I don't see any detailed explanation as to what it will actually do to your clutch besides promote slipping (which may be understandable).

    I think the most informative single statement on the page is:

    Motorcycle specific oils are pumped up with five times the anti-wear, anti-scuff and extreme pressure additives of regular motor oil. As an added plus, motorcycle oil does not include molybdenum disulfide and other friction modifiers that wreak havoc on clutch performance.
    I'm still forced to wonder what's the difference between "5x anti-wear, scuff and pressure additives" and any "friction modifiers" you wold find in automotive oil. You would reduce "wear and scuff" by lowering friction right? As far as pressures go, I'm not sure a motorcycle would run with pressures so high (relative to a car) that any additive would make a difference. You can run Mobil 1 in a 911 Turbo and not in a 200cc thumper just cuz' it's a motorcycle? And why wouldn't 5x anti wear additives give 5x the same problems on the clutch as synthetic if it's all designed to lower friction anyway? Those anti-wear and scuff additives still get on the clutch plates right? It's not like the motorcycle additives have a "magic" way of only being used in the head of the engine.

    As long as the oil weight is correct 10w-40 (which is commonly available) or so, the only part in there I do wonder about is the "molybdenum disulfide" which is supposed to "wreak havoc" on the clutch for some reason. I'm guessing it can corrode the friction plate surfaces or something but that's not specified. Maybe it turns acidic after combustion or mixture with fuel? Even then, it's probably not even going to be a problem unless you have marginal clutch plates/springs anyway. Car engines have gaskets, many of them in fact, now that they're packed with numerous sensors, which are made of much less dense and rugged materials than clutches, yet cars still use synthetic oils.

    Also, as far as why would manufacturers and the oil industry insist on motorcycle oil, it could likely be because they're all trying to sell oil! Yamaha has their special oil, as does Honda, etc. Yamaha will specify to use ONLY Yamaha terd-oil in their bike but really people put all kinds of crap in their machines and just ride! A long time ago salesmen could take the same bottle of piss, but a different name on it and sell it to both people losing their hair or people dying of cancer. Maybe one will smell like sandalwood, and the other like Lilac, but piss with any fragrance is still piss!

    Just cuz the label sez' it's so, don't necessarily mean it is. Maybe it's ignan't but I'm still guessing most of the value you get from paying outrageous amounts of money for Repsol full synthetic (which I've bought before BTW) is psychological. And for some, the psychbological comfort ain't worth the discomfort in your bank account when you're paying 100 bucks for oil to go into a 1,500 dollar bike 3 or 4 times a year!

    Lastly, I find it hard to imagine Mobil 1 can be any worse for a Chinese moto than some of the dozens of liters of total no-name, phony, crap oil that's been put into my bikes in China while on the road and being pushed hard through extreme conditions...yet still managed to get me home.

    If someone's got the dosh to go for Silkolene/Repsol MotoGP certified bling ASM-FO-SAF-SF-GL oil in your bike then more power to you. These oils are not always easily accessible (or affordable) to everyone and I don't think scaring people into believing that their bike is going to blow up without the latest motorcycle oil additive technology is reasonable.

    FWIW, I'd still say the main thing is to make sure you use a reputable company, the correct weight and is affordable enough you can change your oil regularly... regardless of what type you choose.

    CC

    -Some comments from people who use Mobil 1 in their bikes... including a 300+hp Hayabusa...
    http://forums.sportrider.com/70/7801...kes/index.html
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  9. #9 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    C-Moto Senior davidqc's Avatar
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    Informatively, and passionately, put CC. Some great stuff there and hope you dont' mind if I use it elsewhere (duly acknowledged, natch).

    I just use plain mineral oil and change it about every 1000km, but I don't have a fancy engine. Just a cruiser/plodder.

    By contrast, I have a car whose service interval is 18,000 miles (diesel). It would be 22,000 miles if it had a petrol engine. Try doing that with a bike.
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  10. #10 Re: oils ain't oils? 
    grumpy old sod jape's Avatar
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    Good onya CC, I do like to read a good rave!

    Mobile 1 in Australia is fully synthetic, comes in many flavours including three for 'bikes and still costs too much, about 20% more locally than I paid for the motorbike specific Shell mineral + stuff anyway and certainly a lot more than cheapo 20/50 for cars!

    I would have enjoyed your rave more if it had ended up convincing me that basic ordinary lube of the type millions of cars and bikes ran on for decades at supermarket prices would be OK in the Klingon. I shall not get fully synth at up to $20 litre of any brand or type, not convinced there at all, but will also play safe and compromise using the cheaper mineral + designed for bikes at approx $12 litre rather than $4.50 litre automobile 20/50 off the supermarket shelf.
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