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  1. #151 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    http://investor.harley-davidson.com/...cle&id=1687027

    They do not disclose the sales numbers in China, its a subsidiary of HD selling in China.
    But they do disclose sales in Asia….I am not sure how many they sell in China
    There quarterly sales for Asia Pacific, have an other then Japan segment that would include China.
    But what else is included?
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  2. #152 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    Senior C-Moto Guru zhu's Avatar
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    the more hardlys the better I reckon. every rich assed poser on a hardly is one less audi to contend with. anyway cant judge a man by his bike and if the wealthy want to ride a full dresser, then let them have at it because that full dresser is going to look like a bag of shit after a few days on china's roads
    Shaft Harley 1989 by jorvikiwi, on Flickr...here is what real 1%ers do to Harleys where I come from...lol
    Last edited by zhu; 08-05-2013 at 02:59 PM.
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  3. #153 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJH View Post
    The 1% is a relative term, relative to what your discussing,.
    The term in this content is relating to income earners, in the USA the top 1% earn 700k annually on average.
    Globally though the top 1% earn above 35k annually.


    Half the individuals in USA can afford an HD, 99% of the world population cannot.


    I do not know who can afford and HD in China, but the top 1% there certainly can. It is also safe to say the absolute majority in China cannot…and likely never will. But the population numbers are all bigger in China, so a 1% there is significant. In China it be the top 10% of incomes that can afford the HD, maybe more?


    Decadent and dickheaded, that is HD in China.
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  4. #154 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    foreign China moto dude bikerdoc's Avatar
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    IMO the more affluent Chinese who buy expensive bikes the better it is for all of us here. Sooner or later this increasing mass will challenge the status quo in terms of discriminatory policy. Don't care if it is HD, BMW <insert brand here> if it gets all of us that step closer to equity in the greater scheme of things. Besides which why the HD bashing? which reminds me of the tall poppy syndrome. Consider for just a moment, the historical lack of quality and availability of decent motorcycle <insert any product here> within PRC. I for one don't blame the locals nor begrudge them for wanting something better that they can afford, whether that be HD, BMW, Ducati et al., given that just a decade ago there was a lot of suppression-ist type policies in place.
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  5. #155 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    Danger, Will Robinson! Lao Jia Hou's Avatar
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    Minor clarification re my 1%'r post ...

    The meaning of my post was that 99% of the HD riders go to the (presumed) upscale Costa Coffee but when I am riding my HD, I still prefer rumbling over to the Starbucks, half a block away. Any further, and I might need to get the bike on a trailer. It was intended as a joke, but obviously fell flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by chinabiker View Post
    The new owner has his bike delivered with a full tank, which should last a year or two
    Now THAT is very funny! Probably because it is so very close to the truth! Good one Andy.

    Still sitting inside a well known Beijing dealer (FHL) is a very nice, limited production, used Road King. HD made 200 special bikes (across the product line - there were about a dozen Road Kings) for only the Chinese market, and sold them at the beginning of 2012. This particular used Road King came up for sale a few months ago (about a year old). It has Inner Mongolia plates (cool number, too). It has 650 kms on it, which is what was put on the bike by a HD employee delivering the bike. It originally sold for the paltry price of 513,000 rmb, including everything (I think the base price was around 450K). It is now for sale for 265,000 rmb, and FHL is encouraging offers. The owner also bought a brand new Ducati Multistrada, and it was also put up for sale at FHL, with almost zero kms. I think it sold. And the owner also bought a brand new Hyabusa (also now for sale, with about 200 kms on it).

    Some eye candy links of FHL's ads:

    Harley Road King Limited Edition


    Suzuki Hyabusa

    BTW, sitting between my newly delivered Suzuki FW110 (great bike for the city) and my newly purchased Jialing JH150, is my 2012 HD Ultra classic (aka as the couch-glide). Nice bike, but only a run-of-the-mill Ultra, bought off a Chinese owner who had A-plated the bike. Everything, including the A-plate, was purchased for about 50% of what the original owner paid in mid-2012. It had about 1,000 kms on it, going to/from Costa Coffee, and I've since added about another 2,000 kms. Just received an offer for 10% more than I paid.

    Apparently, the uber-wealthy only buy NEW ... they don't want a used bike, so depreciation is massive.
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  6. #156 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    Danger, Will Robinson! Lao Jia Hou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerdoc View Post
    IMO the more affluent Chinese who buy expensive bikes the better it is for all of us here. Sooner or later this increasing mass will challenge the status quo in terms of discriminatory policy. Don't care if it is HD, BMW <insert brand here> if it gets all of us that step closer to equity in the greater scheme of things. Besides which why the HD bashing? which reminds me of the tall poppy syndrome. Consider for just a moment, the historical lack of quality and availability of decent motorcycle <insert any product here> within PRC. I for one don't blame the locals nor begrudge them for wanting something better that they can afford, whether that be HD, BMW, Ducati et al., given that just a decade ago there was a lot of suppression-ist type policies in place.
    +1

    Yup, it helps everyone. HD has actually broken a lot of new ground inside China, having several policies changed. Not sure, but I think HD was somehow behind the new 13 year time limit, and is pushing for 16. Also think HD helped with the A-plate reissuance policy change.
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  7. #157 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    C-Moto Guru TexasAggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou View Post
    +1

    Yup, it helps everyone. HD has actually broken a lot of new ground inside China, having several policies changed. Not sure, but I think HD was somehow behind the new 13 year time limit, and is pushing for 16. Also think HD helped with the A-plate reissuance policy change.

    +2

    What he said....
    DT
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  8. #158 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    Senior C-Moto Guru MJH's Avatar
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    If the middle class in china can afford an HD then the income statistic the government publishes must understating incomes in China. Which means that those that are purchasing these likely are getting capital under the table. That could explain why they say “do not ask who we are”?


    The middle class incomes, a terminology not commonly used in china, reportedly tops out at around 60k USD which does not really qualify for a 20k motorcycle, the price of a 883. Actually they could purchase one but doing so would be in many ways compromising, unless that income was of a single person, but even then its pushing limits.


    You most certainly can compare incomes to purchasing power between the USA and China, there is absolutely no legitimate reason why you cannot, other then the lack of qualified data.


    That same 883 offered in china cost 8k in the USA and allot more people can purchase them here and do, they can and do qualify for purchasing these.


    In China these motorcycles are being sold to those earning above a middle class incomes, they are selling to those with incomes above 60k USD for sure and some of the purchasers could be well entrenched in local power networks and in that they can influence government. But do they want to see more affordable and accessible to the middle class, they actually like high prices and in that exclusive access.


    These rich may drive the economy in many ways, but buying expensive imports does not do much for anyone within the domestic economy of China. Saying they create incentives for the underclass’s to aspire to is ludicrous, the upper-class is not expanding in China, its wallets are but its counts are not. The middle class is expanding but they cannot legitimately afford these, if they are in fact middle class.


    There has been research done stating that purchasing in china is exceeding stated incomes, leading to the beliefs that under the table incomes exist to large degrees.


    The only benefit I can see, is if they can get the tariffs lowered and registration fees reduced, then the middle can then get legitimate access, but nothing is there to motivate the upper class to instigate that, the ruling class may not even be considering that, they tax the heck out of them and the restrictions are very prevalent and that keeps the bike exclusive and in that the sales small.


    What part of that did, I get wrong?


    The HD cult mentality is an easy target, its Chinese faction is even an easier target. Not everyone gets jealous, if I want one I would have one easy enough. People that go overboard trying to impress others materially…tacky comes to mind, as in tactless.
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  9. #159 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    C-Moto Guru TexasAggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJH View Post

    What part of that did, I get wrong?
    You missed the point that the more people that ride motorcycles in China, the more chance there will be that it will become accepted as the true joy it can be. If it takes those in power to find the joy in riding to open things up, I am for it. We may even be allowed full access to highways, etc. in the future if enough powerful people start buying Harley Davidsons, BMW's, JH600 Jialings, whatever.

    I my personal opinion all this "Class Warfare" talk is very destructive, be it in China, USA, EU, wherever. After a while it sounds more like petty envy than a crusade for "fairness" in life. Energy spent on the fringes is a waste.

    I am going to now go look for one of those "special" milkshakes!
    DT
    Keeping the rubber side down.....most of the time.
    Nanjing wheels:BMW F800GS / Texas wheels:BMW R1200GSA & 70' Bultaco El Bandido
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  10. #160 Re: Harley-Davidson in China 
    Senior C-Moto Guru bigdamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasAggie View Post
    You missed the point that the more people that ride motorcycles in China, the more chance there will be that it will become accepted as the true joy it can be. If it takes those in power to find the joy in riding to open things up, I am for it. We may even be allowed full access to highways, etc. in the future if enough powerful people start buying Harley Davidsons, BMW's, JH600 Jialings, whatever.

    I my personal opinion all this "Class Warfare" talk is very destructive, be it in China, USA, EU, wherever. After a while it sounds more like petty envy than a crusade for "fairness" in life. Energy spent on the fringes is a waste.

    I am going to now go look for one of those "special" milkshakes!
    It's not class warfare,Chip on the old shoulder or envy.

    There are certain groups of motorcyclists that give motorcycling a bad name and wanbe bikers riding there HD with straight threw exhausts in packs/groups not only annoy me they annoy the general public when I ask them why they have to use a straight threw exhausts most say it gives the bike more performance A what a load of crap B IF you want performance why did you buy a Harley. The rest say it makes em look cool.

    If you think that the wanbe bikers riding Harleys around are going to give a good impression to the general public well I beg to differ.Just wait until the 1%ers start moving in.
    Last edited by bigdamo; 08-07-2013 at 04:23 AM.
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