JH600 stalling

**Lao Jia Hou** · 12-07-2011, 01:24 PM

Hmmmm - I just heard that they are coming to Beijing to inspect my two bikes.

Perhaps I am just a bitchy old fart ... but why am I suspicious that these CQ guys will spend 5 minutes looking at my bikes, and the rest of the weekend visiting tourist sites in Beijing.

Isn't it cheaper, and more reasonable to ship the bikes to CQ?

Whatever.

OK, time to calm down ... I'll give them a chance.

**Barry** · 12-07-2011, 01:33 PM

Ofcourse, calm down. If things don't work out, I've already found you a great replacement! I'm sure it doesn't stall as often.

http://bj.58.com/danche/8086342699266x.shtml

You'll definitely get a lot of attention pulling up at Starbucks with it!

**milton** · 12-08-2011, 11:48 AM

Eric and I spent 2 hours with 2 Jialing technicians at Eric’s garage this morning. They came with LZD and Xiao Fan, which made the visit “official” I guess. When inquired about their diagnosis on Motokai’s bike yesterday at Xiao Fan’s, they claimed that the bike didn’t stall while they were there. When pressed harder on details, they admitted that they just watched the bike getting started, which did not stall, but did not ride it at all. This is obviously unacceptable as an official final word on Motokai’s sick bike.

However, after conversing with them for 2 more hours I have reached the following view on the subject:

Version 3.0 is the result of Jialing’s effort in resolving the stalling problems, which is now considered solved. All newer releases are on Version 3.0 and have a new model name JH600A. They have not heard much complaints about stalling problems since.
Jialing is not going back to Bosch for any problems in 2.0, because of the simple fact that Jialing just doesn’t have the access to the internals or source program of ECU 2.0.
I have the feeling that Jialing will continue to drag its feet for problems in models prior to JH600A, since the official way to solve the problem is to upgrade those bikes into 3.0 ECU, which unfortunately involves the sensitive issues of hardware cost required for upgrade. As almost all sick bikes are out of warranty, they don’t think they need to foot the bill.

The external diagnostic console, or ETK, for 3.0 is capable of both reading and overriding ECU settings based on diagnostic inputs. Jialing will never be able to help us on ECU issues unless we upgrade.

So here is my conclusion:

Fighting Jialing on resolving 2.0 problems is a losing battle. They will continue applying the delay tactics until we all get sick of complaining and either make ourselves disappear or sell our bikes.
Upgrading to 3.0 is the right way or frankly the only way. We probably need to bear the cost.
The hardware required to upgrade:
1. ECU
2. ECU cables
3. Instrument panel (as the overheating light is now incompatible)
4. Cylinder head block
5. A new spark plug of different grade

The reason for fixing the ECU is obvious, as suggested by Eric all along that it is an ECU issue. The new 3.0 ECU has a new logic of “throttle position predicator”, among others, implemented to prevent the stalling, which are basically to boost the fuel mixture at strategic points on the fuel map, also as Eric had hoped to do all along. The only reason for 4 is to eliminate the Camshaft Position Sensor, which is now considered redundant. The new head block has no opening for that sensor. So the only reason to change the head block is to patch up the “scar”, as they put it. As to what has triggered 2 and 3 I have no clue.
If we don’t mind the scar on the head block, the cost for upgrade may be easier to stomach.

However, I might add that even after the upgrade to 3.0 we are not completely out of the wood. There is still no concept of “calibration” of ECU parts and sensors, nor after-sale ECU maintenance schedule. As Eric has been trying very hard to point out that as soon as the ECU is involved, all ECU related fixes require calibration. Traditional approach of mechanical repair in swapping out “bad” parts with “new and better” parts just doesn’t work anymore under in this brave new world of ECU logic and machine intelligence. For any ECU related fixes, all new parts must be calibrated through the ECU after installation, or they will not work together as a whole. As time marches on and 3.0 parts grow old, we may still experience similar ECU related stalling or other problems, which as of now has no standard factory procedure to handle them. Jialing is yet to implement an ECU maintenance program similar to those offered by BMW, Buell or other manufacturers. Jialing as a manufacturer hasn’t quite learned this concept yet (but I think they realize themselves that they are not quite there and will put efforts into this).

Do I think Jialing is responsible for fixing 2.0 stalling problem. Of course, yes! Does Jialing think they are responsible for them? No, not according to what I heard this morning, especially for those bikes out of warranty, even after their realizing that it is also a safety issue.

My 2 cents after talking to them today. Cheers.

**ChinaV** · 12-08-2011, 12:36 PM

That's an amazing post Milton, hats off to you and Eric for all the hard work.

Shame on you Jialing...it's companies like you that destroy China's image. No matter how hard the great people like LZD and Xiao Fan work, companies like Jialing will always stand in the way of China's success. Until they learn to accept responsibility for their failures, we're all just a bunch of guinea pigs funding their R&D efforts.

I bet those pre-JH600A models will have great trade in, or used-market value after this.

Cheers!
ChinaV

**998S** · 12-08-2011, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by milton

Does Jialing think they are responsible for them? No, not according to what I heard this morning, especially for those bikes out of warranty, even after their realizing that it is also a safety issue.

Well, this is a perfect but sadly not so positive sum-up of the meeting this morning.

I can add nothing more, other then that the people Jialing sent to investigate this problem seem to know less about the bike then I do.
That does not say much about me, but it says all the more about them I am afraid.
Elementary questions on settings, reasoning on disconnecting sensors, and other issues on the FI did only end in lots of words, not much in concrete answers.

I guess you guys might consider the upgrade to the version 3.0 though, but be prepared to pay for it.
I also don't think JL will foot the bill in any way.
I even think there might be a fair chance that JL will not allow you to upgrade at the end for "political" reasons, but that might depend a lot on the way you will play this in the next months.
I do agree with Milton that a 'soft' approach is the best way to proceed right now, seems Milton and LZD are on the right track.

In the meantime, I still believe that with some further offering, preying and swearing, the bike of Milton can be optimized.
I agreed with him that he will bring the bike to me before Xmas, I will then do a bit of fine tuning, and be able to ride after each tweak.
My ultimate goal is to prove that the bike with all sensors connected, by just optimizing the system, will be (close) to stall free.
No version 3.0 needed, scr** you JL :)

**milton** · 12-09-2011, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by 998S

No version 3.0 needed, scr** you JL :)

Agree with you 100%. I hope you beat Jialing. Go! Eric! Go!
Love your new avatar. Sadly our Jialing is only an unsightly single.

Cheers!

**Lao Jia Hou** · 12-09-2011, 01:28 AM

Thank you, Milton, for your efforts and sharing your experiences. And, of course, thanks again to Eric for his untiring efforts.

It is discouraging, but unsurprising, of what might be forthcoming at my "meeting" with JL this weekend in Beijing.

As for calibration & recalibration of the ECU (of whichever version), this is common knowledge with other manufacturers. I own a couple of USA-built cruisers, both EFI, and it is widely known and accepted that any time one adds/removes after-market parts/accessories (e.g., pipes), the ECU needs to be reflashed with a new program. Further, it is also widely known and accepted that as a bike wears in, the ECU mapping needs tweaking.

So, as Milton notes, regardless of JL's assurances that a new 3.0 version has minimal stalling issues, the reality is that any mod to the bike (e.g., different exhaust can) will require a new map, as will the general "opening up" of the mechanical bits & pieces of the bike (i.e., normal wear & tear).

It will be interesting making my arguments re warranty, as these problems were identified WELL before the warranty period expired. It is JL's ignorance & intransigence that has caused the delays.

Well, we'll see.

One nice thing ... I noticed that this thread is now up to around 8,000 views. Good.

Dear prospective JH600-A purchasers ... do you really want to risk it, given how JL has treated us people with "old" bikes? (Mine are 15 months "old). Love my YBRs.

**milton** · 12-09-2011, 01:57 AM

When I first made my buying decision, I was influenced by the fact that there are oodles of JH600's already sold to the military, which should be an excellent testing ground for the durability of the bike.
Well, surprise!! According to the Jialing engineers we met yesterday: among all the JH600/JH600B bikes acquired by the military the highest mileage they've seen on the clock so far is 950km, not even 4-digit long. This is after the bike has been officially released for over 5 years. This probably explains why there is very little complaint from the military.
Was I mistaken!!

(Let's not get into the subject of why the military establishment made the huge purchase originally

)

**bigdamo** · 12-09-2011, 03:11 AM

Jialing reminds me of when Highland SE moved their motorcycle manufacturing to China a few years ago and all the problems they had with the bikes being manufactured in China. The failure of the Chinese manufacturer to address the said issues caused Highland to move there manufacturing operations to the USA.

I wonder how many Chinese highland motorcycles are still sitting in the factory in Henan.

**ZMC888** · 12-09-2011, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by Lao Jia Hou

Dear prospective JH600-A purchasers ... do you really want to risk it, given how JL has treated us people with "old" bikes? (Mine are 15 months "old). Love my YBRs.

I'm now a former prospective JH600-A purchaser. In fact I find it amazing. Jialing think that they should become the 'Honda of China'! They are just losing future customers and damaging their long term reputation.