Both Thailand and India set to produce CBR250R by Spring 2011!

[ChinaV]

You and crazy Carl may have written your rule book which states: 'China should only be ridden toured on a dual sport bike, because of the state of the roads in some places is poor'.

Uhm, my rule book is pretty loose when it comes to bike choices. Look at my first two China bikes, hardly dual-sports, and my initial 45,000 kilometers here had quite a few off road excursions that pounded both of these machines pretty badly.



I wouldn't call either of them "ideal" for China roads, but they were plenty of fun at the time.

Your thread is about a bike called the Honda CBR250R, not the bike in your avatar. If you google CBR250R and read the first 5 articles that come up about it, they all refer to this as a sport-bike. That doesn't look like a comfy upright seating position to me.



Cheers!
ChinaV

[ZMC888]

Looks like a guy leaning forward on a sporty looking road bike with a neutral riding position to me. Possibly bars could be 2cm forward and lower than completely neutral.

The Indian market doesn't really want a sports bike, but they seem to love the 'sporty look' though, who can blame Honda for exploiting this in their marketing? They are very keen on the Unicorn (CBF150 ish thing) and some of the Bajaj (Kawasaki) and Hero Honda 150-250cc EFI singles. Small nippy bikes which have neutral riding positions, are cheap to run, practical but all the sporty stuff is just fluffy bling marketing. I know this because I have toured there and done 10,000 kms on three different rented machines. I imagine in five years there will be tens of thousands of Indian guys riding around on CBR250R's with sari-guards and with Shiva and Om stickers on it.

The new CBR250R bike is pathetic compared to the old CBR250RR.

45.00 HP (32.8 kW)) @ 14500 RPM

Also much more sanitized and has much less character than the lovely VTR250, which is still being made.

29.50 HP (21.5 kW)) @ 10500 RPM

And finally pails in insignificance to the sexy Japanese gray-imported 90's CB250 Hornet.

[jape]

I'm not really sure what the argument is about here!
Or the thread any more!

Modern bikes, even these cheaper copies and clones and licensed machines, are all very tasty.

They all go faster than just about everything I grew up with in the same engine class. But even so, I took my Honda CB250 everywhere, including on farms and dirt tracks and yes I took the old BSA C15 everywhere as well, including up the stairs and into the front room of my second floor flat. And on the motorways across Europe many times. I always suffered breakdowns (both machines as bad as the other), I always got cold and wet and always got stuck somewhere miles from anywhere in winter.

These bikes are all good to look at, relatively good value for what you pay these days and will certainly go just about anywhere apart from really bad off-road tracks. And then of course bits will fall off, crack, break and rust - as they do on many cheaper dirtbikes/dual-sport/motard as well!

If there is to be an argument it should be about value for money compared to each other in the market and only when you bring in such issues as reliability, repairability, spares sourcing does that make sense. And it only makes sense in each different market depending on what else is available or affordable. I think terms such as 'sports bike' 'road racer' and so on are also pointless on all of these machines, whatever label they get.

They are just motorbikes and someone will want one or the other because of its bloody colour and street cred as much as some other soul will want it for any particular purpose. China V has the right idea, get a shed full of them in different flavours!

Personally, I don't much care who makes them where (if I did I wouldn't have a Chinabike), I just need to know if I can afford it, if it goes and that it won't kill me. I think most folk in most markets think the same and if often comes down to which one is on special down the road from you.

[ZMC888]

Shoulders above pegs=neutral.

[ChinaV]

I'm not really sure what the argument is about here!
Or the thread any more!

No argument, just debating different views. I'm egging Z on about what he wants the bike to be versus what Honda is actually producing. Unfortunately, I don't feel this bike has a place in the China market, Z feels different.

Z, I did spend five years in a Honda/Suzuki dealership trying to convince people that Katana's and VFR's were more comfortable and practical than cruisers, so I'm pretty familiar with footpeg to ass to shoulder positions. I know what your saying, maybe it's neutral, but I wonder how well it fits a person that is 178cm tall, especially in the legs.

I also like to troll Honda forums , just kidding.

You can tell it's winter because people are arguing bikes we will never be able to ride here. Gonna be a long winter, glad I'm in the south and still get to ride.

Cheers!
ChinaV

[ZMC888]

You can tell it's winter because people are arguing bikes we will never be able to ride here. Gonna be a long winter, glad I'm in the south and still get to ride.

Biatch! I just got cabin fever that's all, -5c yesterday, couldn't even get out on the MTB . Forecast for +6c on Saturday, dawn till dusk ride MTB ride for me with my ski gear.

I think we are an example of how to argue, just use opinions and ideas to express arguments, not personal attacks or swearing.

Back to the bike, it certainly seems a neutral position, but on the sporty side of neutral I'll admit. Also I think they wouldn't sell that many here, just because you can buy a shitty cheapo box car/van for 20,000. More practical for those with a family. They'll only sell to the few bike fans. But then again there probably is a decent export market for a slightly cheaper version than the Thai version to places like Turkey and Russia. While they are there why not CCC comply it, especially as after Jan 1st there won't be much you can legally buy and register in China due to the CCC emission rules.

[MJH]

Honda will never manufacture the VTR250 in china or the CBR250 for that mater, they will never offer the PGM-FI technology for manufacturing in china and should not the cost of doing so is inherently much higher then doing so in India and Thailand, much higher as in the cost of recovering intellectual property rights losses is staggering and often futile in china.

The day designs are introduced they are copied and sold and subsequently it will be manufactured by multiple manufactures. That does not happen as often in India or Thailand.

The joint ventures in china should not be considered viable for production of any designs that are right protected. The cost of recovering damages are prohibitive. If you offer designs for anything to be manufactured in china you should expect to see those designs manufactured by others.

Honda is very smart they set the bike in markets at costs and that cannot be beat by anyone even if they copy it, the price difference would simply reflect total lack of support and also cost cutting labor and manufacturing that compromises quality.

For a mistake it seem awfully brilliant.

It’s funny force EFI on the market, for what to attempt to get the technology brought in? Sorry no takers and also not profitable to import them so what happens next, Chinese versions of EFI and lots of crappy running bikes and a limited supply of them? The used bikes go up in value and the industry suffers?

They need to develop their own technology and learn to protect the rights to it and the rights of others in the process, the system is stacked and many are seeing that, offering a distinct advantage to others, India, Thailand and Vietnam.

I said it before all manufactured items should be required to register technical documentation, then to get entranced into any market it would need to be unique or a licensed version. It is not unrealistic as CAD diagrams and engineering specification can be analyzed with intelligent software applications. These types of standard regulations on an international level would insure right protection of designs. The thing is that those that totally ignore regulations actually bring about more regulations. In the past most endeavors were faith based and the process self regulating on actions in good faith. Technology allows information to transfer very quickly and is a root cause of intellectual property right losses and it also will need to be implemented as a solution.

It’s not just a motorcycle it is a set of designs and components, in that is invested capital and in that rights to recovering it, as its an investment. Not to mention a matter of safety, environmental impact and after market support. So even if they look exactly the same, they may not be. The differences should be documented and in complete details.

Every product and even every entity should have data sheets and complete disclosure within that, there is less corruption in a totally open system. Think about it, it is what it is, what are they hiding and why? They want to protect it from being copied, but if it all in the open those that copy it can be seen. Those that are funneling profit into the corner offices can be seen.

I tell you this the value go goes up with demand only, if there if it is limited then it get the highest value. It all has to balance in propensity.

China now has income disparity congratulations, nothing grows without greed? But in that you set the stage for disenfranchisement? For some the $3,999.00 bike is unattainable and for others a cheap bike below their standards. Have and have not, hmmm.

Why don’t one of you guys take job in a Chinese factory on the line and make a documentary on it? Tell them you will work a year for a free bike?

What the heck am I going to do till spring….maybe I will write a book?

[jape]

Well seeing as how it is winter for many and the cabin-crazy season for riders, and I am always crazy, lets run with it a bit. I have never resolved these things in my mind, idealistic philosophy, concepts of honour and even faith never manage to balance satisfactorily with the pragmatic and realistic concepts based on free market. Yes, people invent new things and deserve reward, yes research, development manufacturing, maintenance and all that require invested capital. But also all folk worldwide want/need/dream of transport and comfort and ease. As westerners on the whole, we sit in a very lush position however poor we are relatively in our own society. We look at minor variations in power and bling in what WE want before we look at the needs of some poor villager whose local economy is medieval and works harder daily, consistently, than most of us have ever managed.
In truth, we in the West live still on the rewards of exploiting, raping and misusing the less technologically able parts of the world over centuries. Of course, a Chinese Empire (or African etc.) would not necessarily be any better or worse than our own historical cultures in this.
So is the answer in recording and regulating any invention with the concomitant licensing and taxing? i am not sure it is. If we are to gain anything by developing a true international and global structure I would prefer it look behind the market economies to a broader reality. Human beings, as Germans relating to Jews, Japanese to everyone else, USA to Vietnamese/N.Koreans and now Moslem fundamentalists to unbelievers (to mention just a few) at all times in history can be seen to be mainly brutal even tyrannical and murderous. I am not a fool, I don't think you give a monkey a banana and he will never steal another from you, but I do think that well-fed, well-housed people tend to be less manipulable by tyrants and psychopaths. Always a fine line as fear of losing the comfort can be manipulated and also breeding often rises beyond what is maintainable under such conditions.
So maybe a market energy can be harnessed that requires less profit, less greed.
My point, if any, is that this happens anyway, by the simple measure of ripping off the technology and exploiting it, but this is just a reversal of the technologically advanced exploiting the cheap labour and some, including me, would say it is fair.
We live in a world which is mainly concerned with power and thus, too often, violence. It is nature. Do we try and find honour and live by it, or is it a chimera, a fanciful notion that gets us clubbed on the head from behind and our fancy bike stolen. Do 'outlaws' truly live by honour when they steal and kill and supply drugs to those not in the gang? Do governments have a right to legislate about licensing inventions when they steal and kill themselves?
Sod it. China would steal a technological advance would it? And then what, make a bit of money instead of the Japs? The Japs should give it to them. Everything any human being devises comes on the back of what some other human being worked out or developed. It is then exploited as much as possible as due reward and legally backed as such by the powerful, not necessarily the originators. And so the imbalance continues as the rest of the world begs/steals, borrows to catch up. Even goes to war.
Something wrong somewhere.
International law should be, if anything at all, 2 years to own and exploit anything from music and film rights to technological advances. Then let the energy of the masses take it and play with it and enjoy it. There must be some more peaceful way we can all live together and enjoy the benefits of life.

[MJH]

You cannot just throw out an arbitrary time frame for the rights to recover a research and development investment. If you want to design an excellent product and the right product at the right time you have to spend money and the ability to recover that is a function of the market. It is a component of the Total Unit Cost that is all inclusive and in that shorter lines make for higher costs, if you only have two year to recover the costs then that would be inflationary on the sale price and a deterrent to doing any research and develop.

[jape]

Aye, and then we rely on good faith and goodwill after the elapsed recovery time over greed and insecurity? I am not saying my idea will work, just that I prefer it to the rapacious market force system we live in.

Write that book MJH, we need the answers!

I would like the meek to inherit the earth, then I could relax a bit more and experiment with things, might even come up with a new engine design in the back shed. I have been experimenting with levitation but only managed a split second so far. Was scared the speed of the earth moving through space would get me ...

I do think that the values humans live by are warped but fully admit I don't know how to spread the wealth and protect the nicer, milder souls amongst us from the nasties. I would truly love to turn my shotgun and my swords into ploughshares but I don't trust my neighbours.