Both Thailand and India set to produce CBR250R by Spring 2011!

[ZMC888]

Sorry MJH, your arguments seem well constructed, however you are incorrect. There is already a Japanese EFI motorcycle being made in China, which isn't being successfully copied, the Jianshe Yamaha YBR250! The reason why it is hard to copy EFI systems is each needs to be tailored to the exact engine. Therefore there is no massive leap in imagination that would make it impossible for Sundiro Honda to manufacture the CBR250R in China, the VTR250 is much less likely. In fact I think an EFI version of the CBX250 Twister would be a better proposition, or an EFI version of the CBF250 as these bikes appear more basic. What does drive things being made in China is simple, sales. More likely export sales, if Honda needs cheap manufacturing capacity to supply demand, they will use Sundiro Honda.

[andre555]

... What does drive things being made in China is simple, sales. More likely export sales, if Honda needs cheap manufacturing capacity to supply demand, they will use Sundiro Honda.

Hi ZMC, I dont believe so. There is only one car producing JV to export cars from China, Honda produces some Jazz/Fit for exports markets in China. Honda has a majority in this company, this is only allowed due to the fact that this factory is for export only.

Why are VW, GM, Toyota... not using the "cheap" production in China? Think about it.

Car/Motorbikes industry is a restricted industry, so a Joint Venture is requiered to sell China made vehicles in China. Result you have to share your Know How with a Joint Venture partner. For disclosing this knowhow you want to get a reward - high enough profit.
Your JV partner is in the business for the money reason as well, so the profit requierements are higher than in other markets.

Production in China is not cheaper then Thailand or India, especially not when your calculation depends heavily on high quality components you get from external suppliers.

Why to share the profit if you can make it 100% in another country for comparable cost base??? There are not many reasons to use China as an export base for indutries where JV's mandatory.

[jape]

I think it more likely to be because no-one trusts China as stable and manipulable, simpler forces are at play than market and profit, they are scared China will take it all and in five years turn around again and close the borders if the experiment fails. The world is scared of China because they think China thinks like they do. They are wrong, the experiment is mainly an internal phenomenon and the motives are Chinese, not western based and hidden under Chinese schemes!

[ZMC888]

This is the Jianshe Yamaha YBR250. This is the exact stumbling block to your argument if you think that the CBR250R couldn't be made in China.



There is essential minimal differences between this bike and the Honda CBR250R.

Yet it is:
-EFI
-Made in China and many other countries including Brazil, and is exported worldwide.

Millions of scooters and motorcycles are exported from China every year. Why? Because China can manufacture in massive volume, cheap labor, and cheap parts.

Will the CBR250R be made in China? Probably not. Why? Because Honda probably don't need that volume, and there is minimal domestic demand for motorcycles in China at the moment, especially for this kind of bike which probably be considered expensive.

Could the CBR250R be made in China if the boss of Sundiro pushed for it or they needed a cheaper version than the Thai version or more volume? Yes, they can easily.

But a Japanese company making bikes with EFI in China? Surely they wouldn't do that because the nasty Chinese would just steal the technology immediately wouldn't they? Jianshe Yamaha YBR250, nuff said.

But a Japanese or German company would never manufacture to export anything other than bog standard 125cc motorcycle parts, because they could just make a deal in Thailand or Vietnam or something and avoid Chinese red-tape? BMW 650 engine made by Loncin. Yamaha YBR250.

There would be no reason for anyone to make a CBR250R in China because they are already making it in Thailand and India? Indian factory will probably only produce for the Indian market. Thailand may be limited in it's production capability. The YBR125, CG125 and YBR250 to name a few are made in many countries. In the UK for example, if you go to a Yamaha dealer you get a choice between identical looking bikes. The price difference will be explained depending on where it is made. Japan good. Brazil pretty good. China OK/rubbish.

[MJH]

I think there are things that are not discussed, Yamaha imports the YZF-R1 into china and then they were being sold online? I’ve seen advertisement for them not sure what that’s all about. Raises the question of how does a unit designated for sale in china end up in Bulgaria? The prices of the YBR in china are they high to prevent these units from being sold outside the formal channels? It’s not just a tedious game of monitoring intellectual rights for manufacturing, they also have to keep an eye on channels of distributions. The rights are to the value chain also, the formal systems that support the products.

If they can make money and get away with it they will it can be made black market, if not then sell it grey market. Dealers in other countries replenishing inventory through lower cost secondary sources?


Pleasure doing business with you….hey is that my wallet? No, not your wallet it my wallet…just look like your wallet. Oh, so sorry is your wallet, have picture of your wife in it.


I would say Honda prefers to manufacturer out of wholly owned operations and in that strategically.

These are cool bike have you seen these…

[MJH]

I like that Hero broke off from Honda, maybe that is what Sunduro should do?

The CBR250 will go on sale in India in April 2011 for 150,000 INR about $3,300.00 USD
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...15-718000.html

Both Sunduro and Jianshe could break away from their respective partners and negotiate the rights to what they already produce? I have to wonder how much rights Hero has to the PGM-FI they had accessed from Honda? They have to buy out of the partnership and they may have established internal research and develop staffing so that can develop new products?

If a name is made then in that a reputation then they can build on the huge markets they sit within and in some cases sell these products abroad. But they have limited ability to do that they have no real solid networks abroad.

Hero will compete against Honda on level ground in India, it not the case in china, it not even an option to be wholly owned in china, so then why grow Sunduro or Jianshe they eventually will be your competitor and in china they may eventually control the whole market.

Eventually Qingqi could take over Mercury, Polaris and Suzuki sales if they let them they would, so they meter in technolgy to a level then stop. The only option the Chinese have is to separate at that point and develop their own. In that they should allow FDI and wholly owned subsidiaries and encourage competition.

That event is a way off, they have to establish brand names in other markets and operations within those. Easier said then done, they cannot take the technology and sell it under one brand often they learn they have no right to it in other markets. It may be owned by Briggs and Stratton or Tecumseh in other markets. They may have only the domestic rights, they have to have their own and then manage their own rights. What goes around comes around, the shoe eventually on the other foot.

Wasn’t Qingqi once a private company, then found to be avoiding taxes and then subsequently taken over by the government? Do you guys read the Chinese news papers? I found that information in Chinese it does not exist in English.

I am not wrong or right I am an annalist, a bit like Dean Witter to.

[tourerg]

Off the topic : Does any one have the Cbr 250r in shenzhen gz or around ?

[ZMC888]

Not seen any other than an unplated one. However I believe you can order one and plate one legally in China, was explained to me it 'could' be registered by a dealer, but this is China and some people are full of sh*t so answer is 'probably'. However being made in Thailand and imported, it's going to be more expensive. Why not go with a liquid cooled twin, and less hassle with the cheaper Haojue Suzuki GW250? True I am baised towards Honda, but then I'm also baised towards twins!